I'll get the schematic back out lol, I didn't put it away, the wife wanted the dining room table back 
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In Progress Williams - Travel Time
- Thread starter James
- Start date
I might be wrong but I am guessing it is this, as the start relay isn't getting energised because if I take the ball out it doesn't just start a game (is that right?) so the outhole relay isn't triggering everything down the line...?
Anything is possible.
The game over relay test we did the other night, just do that again and see what happens.
Also, when the game is on and knocking, what are the zero position and game over relays doing?
The game over relay test we did the other night, just do that again and see what happens.
Also, when the game is on and knocking, what are the zero position and game over relays doing?
Is there a slam switch on the bottom of the playfield, big leaf switch with one side weighted, if there is sometimes when the playfield has been moved they mess up, I tape a bit of card in them as they are redundant in home use
What does it do it the outhole switch is closed on startup so you get the knocking and then you open the out hole switch ?
Sorry if I seem like I'm repeating myself but without being there it takes a bit longer to build the mental picture
Sorry if I seem like I'm repeating myself but without being there it takes a bit longer to build the mental picture
There is a slam switch, I adjusted that up so there is no contact already.
If I take the clip off of the switch it stops the motor running, but the game still does not play, which makes me think whatever that relay does to start a game isn't happening, as per the video, everything else in the startup seems to be working:
Score Reels reset to zero
Travel and Time (the big sets on the right) all reset
The clock puts the correct time on
Then with the relay closed it just keeps turning the motor over, if it is removed, it stops turning over but game isn't starting still.
If I take the clip off of the switch it stops the motor running, but the game still does not play, which makes me think whatever that relay does to start a game isn't happening, as per the video, everything else in the startup seems to be working:
Score Reels reset to zero
Travel and Time (the big sets on the right) all reset
The clock puts the correct time on
Then with the relay closed it just keeps turning the motor over, if it is removed, it stops turning over but game isn't starting still.
The game may be starting but you cant see it as a ball is not interacting with the playfield. After the ball is ejected to the shooter lane nothing happens until the ball is launched and hits something on the playfield.
Try putting the playfield down, start the game, wait for the knocking and then use a magnet to pull the ball out the out hole.
If the flippers are working launch the ball about a bit and see if anything happens.
If the flippers are working launch the ball about a bit and see if anything happens.
Or are you refering to the start switch not doing anything. Last night the video showed you pressing the start switch and you had life
AHH, ok. So you turn on game, it thinks you have credit, you press start, it goes through the motions and then just, glunk, glunk, glunk ect...
No - the video I have now shows a full reset, which is from the reset button, i.e. on the front of the cabinet:
So everything runs, but the outhole group of switches keeps going, if I remove the ball from the outhole with it down, nothing responds, in a startup sequence I would expect the outhole kicker to fire, but it isn't.
@Moonbus yep
So everything runs, but the outhole group of switches keeps going, if I remove the ball from the outhole with it down, nothing responds, in a startup sequence I would expect the outhole kicker to fire, but it isn't.
@Moonbus yep
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Ok, I'm with you now. Anything on the playfield that can retain a ball will be energised here. Imagine the game lost power whilst the ball was held somewhere. In the startup sequence these parts are energised so any stray balls get returned to the out hole.
What do you press to start a game or eject first ball?
What do you press to start a game or eject first ball?
If you have the game glunking away, look at the score motor and see if the knocks match a particular wheel activating it's switches. It sounds slow for a zero position check.
If it matches a wheel at least we know what switches to start the hunt from.
If it matches a wheel at least we know what switches to start the hunt from.
And does the wheel match the relay opening or closing?
I will have a look at it tomorrow.
The relay that keeps going is the outhole relay, which makes sense as when the clip is on, it thinks it needs to kickout the ball, but when a ball was in there, the outhole kicker wasn't working. So again, with a ball in there, that relay kept going and the score motor kept turning.
I am sure the issue is around the game needing to serve the ball (i.e. activate the kicker) and then finally start the game, literally everything else is ready to go, but given it isn't I am guessing it isn't??
The relay that keeps going is the outhole relay, which makes sense as when the clip is on, it thinks it needs to kickout the ball, but when a ball was in there, the outhole kicker wasn't working. So again, with a ball in there, that relay kept going and the score motor kept turning.
I am sure the issue is around the game needing to serve the ball (i.e. activate the kicker) and then finally start the game, literally everything else is ready to go, but given it isn't I am guessing it isn't??
You did realise that when you get an EM machine were going to get to touch every part of it didn't you 
. Good thing is once it's working it will go on for ever if you don't move it.
The outhole relay is self locking. When the ball goes into the outhole the outhole switch is made and the outhole relay closes. One of the switches activated by the outhole relay power the outhole relay itself.
That 'lock' switch on the outhole relay only works if certain requirements are met, other switches have to be closed for the lock to work. In your case, zero time or zero credits.
If there are open switches in that 'lock' circuit then some part of the machine thinks a game is still active.
As I said before, there is probably a simple solution, hope fully one of the more experienced EM peeps on here will drop in and say 'oh year, that's because of....'. don't lose hope.
My thoughts at the moment are that if that outhole switch is closed the outhole relay should remain closed. If it's trying to start a game the eject mech should be hammering away trying to kick the ball out.
Let's assume the game over relay and the score motor are working ok. What others relays are energised and closed when you get the knocking, relays in the base, under playfield and backbox?
. Good thing is once it's working it will go on for ever if you don't move it.The outhole relay is self locking. When the ball goes into the outhole the outhole switch is made and the outhole relay closes. One of the switches activated by the outhole relay power the outhole relay itself.
That 'lock' switch on the outhole relay only works if certain requirements are met, other switches have to be closed for the lock to work. In your case, zero time or zero credits.
If there are open switches in that 'lock' circuit then some part of the machine thinks a game is still active.
As I said before, there is probably a simple solution, hope fully one of the more experienced EM peeps on here will drop in and say 'oh year, that's because of....'. don't lose hope.
My thoughts at the moment are that if that outhole switch is closed the outhole relay should remain closed. If it's trying to start a game the eject mech should be hammering away trying to kick the ball out.
Let's assume the game over relay and the score motor are working ok. What others relays are energised and closed when you get the knocking, relays in the base, under playfield and backbox?
For the score motor to keep running whilst the outhole relay is flipping on off one of the following relays may be energised...
500 relay
2000 relay
Eject relay
Shooter relay
Extra time relay
Reset relay
Just to clarify. If you start the machine with the outhole closed. Press the button on the front of the cab, the game goes through the reset and startup process and then starts flipping the outhole relay on and off as the index coil activates it's switches.
If the outhole switch is then opened as the relay is flipping, the motor stops or does it continue rotating?
500 relay
2000 relay
Eject relay
Shooter relay
Extra time relay
Reset relay
Just to clarify. If you start the machine with the outhole closed. Press the button on the front of the cab, the game goes through the reset and startup process and then starts flipping the outhole relay on and off as the index coil activates it's switches.
If the outhole switch is then opened as the relay is flipping, the motor stops or does it continue rotating?
It stops :/
Well we can forget the other relays that power the score motor then and narrow it down to either....
Switches on the outhole relay are not correctly making or braking.
Zero switches are not all correct. And therefore the zero reset relay is still on. Again, may be switch alignment on the zero relay.
Game over relay is not behaving or switched are not aligned.
Now you have the game to this stage, what parts have you got bridged ? You have one relay without a coil and something shorted to indicate credits.
Switches on the outhole relay are not correctly making or braking.
Zero switches are not all correct. And therefore the zero reset relay is still on. Again, may be switch alignment on the zero relay.
Game over relay is not behaving or switched are not aligned.
Now you have the game to this stage, what parts have you got bridged ? You have one relay without a coil and something shorted to indicate credits.
have you checked the game over relay and the switches it opens/closes?
Just to clear up any confusion. On the schematic what is the name of the coil that kicks the ball from the outhole to the shooter lane?
Found it, according to the williams parts manual ( http://www.planetarypinball.com/reference/partsmanuals/WMS_Parts_1977-1978/index.html#/32/ ) it has a coil A-22-550, your pic on first page matches this so I going with the 'Ball release coil' on the schematic. This is directly fired by the outhole relay.
If you didnt do it when you had the apron up (and even if you did) I think the next logical step will be to test that coil, maybe re-solder its wires and make sure its moving freely.
Hats off to all concerned here for the persistence. This is what i love about EMs. When any go wrong at the shows, my eyes light up - great problem to solve 
Not sure i could talk anyone through it though in the way this thread has been going. one thing to be able to do it when it is in front of you, a whole nother level trying to explain to someone else by email .
Most people think i am mad completely stripping down an EM even down to takin the screws out of the leaf contacts and leaviing them hung togethor with bits of wire. The benfot for me though is a clean sheet. I get to visually inspect the whole thing as i do it, then when it is back togethor (come the big switch on) i know all contacts are clean, gapped and mechs are free to move. What's left must be gaps, original issues or busted wires. Where are you in the wold James. May be able to come out one evening if you are close?
Not sure i could talk anyone through it though in the way this thread has been going. one thing to be able to do it when it is in front of you, a whole nother level trying to explain to someone else by email .Most people think i am mad completely stripping down an EM even down to takin the screws out of the leaf contacts and leaviing them hung togethor with bits of wire. The benfot for me though is a clean sheet. I get to visually inspect the whole thing as i do it, then when it is back togethor (come the big switch on) i know all contacts are clean, gapped and mechs are free to move. What's left must be gaps, original issues or busted wires. Where are you in the wold James. May be able to come out one evening if you are close?
Hey @Biff - as you say - @Moonbus and @AlanJ are showing incredible levels of persistence sticking with me on this, one of the many reasons this hobby and this forum are so good, their help is greatly appreciated. This is made worse by the fact I keep dipping in and out with family and house sale stuff :/. I am a fair way from you (2 hours ish I think) in Norwich. Oh and yes, I think you are mad for completely stripping everything!
Norwich eh, odd place for me. I purchased a non working StarWars upright arcade from the Starwars Emporium many years back, a few years later on way to Great Yarmouth my cam shaft snapped so had to stop at Norwich and wait for recovery - car was scrap after that. But i did have a bit of a fumble with the then girlfriend behind a bloody great big sign on a large grass hill
Think i just found our next Saturday night Cinema watch with the boys