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No Longer Available Theatre of Magic - price drop 6k

Matt Vince said:
My 2 pence!!

I don't think Neil's initial comment was as way off as some people have suggested. He stated that it was a bargain in the condition it was offered which I read as an endorsement of Dave's work.

Is a players TOM worth 5k? It would likely have dings and marks on the cab, a broken trunk plastic and a smashed centre ramp plus whatever else the previous owner hadn't noticed. I wouldn't pay it and doubt many here would!
What Dave was offering was a very high end restoration and these rightly come at a higher price.

I have commented on for sale ads in the past myself (usually on facebook) but my threashold is when i believe the price is double what you should expect to pay and I wouldn't want to see someone (in my mind) ripped off. I didn't see any suggestions of that in this case.

In fairness to Neil, he does sell his machines at a lower price than he could get if he was out for every penny. I know he has a knack of rubbing people up the wrong way at times but I think a desire to 'pile onto him' has meant the actual post has become irrelevant here.

The truth is that as enthusiasts we (for the most part) already have the machines and are happy to see the prices of old games rise as we get the benefit of inflation, just remember that we also reap what we sow. The downside of high priced sales is that there are very few bargins anymore, or affordable machines for your average punter which means less new people being able to join our great hobby. Even if they do pick up a 'cheaper' machine, the likelyhood is it'll need work which they won't have the knowledge or skills to carry out and end up leaving the hobby with a bad taste in their mouths.

I don't exclude myself from being part of the problem, I too have upped my asking prices in recent years for fear that i wouldn't be able to replace a sold machine with an equivalent at the same price.

I also understand the frustrations of someone selling a machine when the entire thread becomes a debate about what the price should or shouldn't be. Perhaps in future we should agree as a community not to comment on a price unless we genuinely feel it is scandalous (after all, you are under no obligation to buy) and if a forum member gets a great price from an ebay auction, congratulate them. No one offers you extra when one sells for below the 'market' price.
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But Neil said a very good condition TOM is worth 4k, not a player’s example.
Not sure if he actually believes it or whether he’s just trying to wind owners up, he does the same thing to TAF owners 😄
 
mark9 said:
But Neil said a very good condition TOM is worth 4k, not a player’s example.
Not sure if he actually believes it or whether he’s just trying to wind owners up, he does the same thing to TAF owners 😄
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He owns one himself. A blinged up one. I bought one from the same guy he bought his from a year or two later and it cost me well over over £5k. For a non-blinged up one.
 
Myself and Matt are singing from the same hymn sheet here.

We have had more flare ups in the last few months on here than I can remember in the last 10 years combined. And they all focus around price.

I know that it will always play a big part in the hobby, it always has (well has done for the last 20 or so years that I've been collecting).

I saw a post from @strobey the other day on this thread where he said, we are all pinheads, we all know the value of these things. But more and more recently, I'm feeling like my grasp of what the current market is, is really off the mark.

So I listed my Dr Who on eBay instead of on here (yes, that one). The comments on the For Sale on eBay thread were interesting to read, I wonder if they would have been the same if you knew it was me listing it. I listed it at 99p and let it ride, it went for £1420, the market decided the price. Can you imagine the comments I would have received if I had listed that game for £1420 on here!!! Or some of the responses I would have received if I had asked on the what is this game worth thread!! Did I think it would go for that, no. Is it worth that, well one person thinks so, and another guy thought it was worth £1400 for it to end at £1420, so that's what it was worth. Do I disagree with the comments you guys made, no. But perhaps there is something to learn from it and surely you can see now why I didn't list it on here! For those interested, the guy buying was very happy, he wanted a real challenge, ground up restoration, has done some before but not this far gone and was delighted with how much work he would have to do, everyone was happy.

So what's the answer? Obviously I would prefer to list anything I want to sale on here, but my god sometimes the flack and pressure that I feel from doing it really isn't worth it. I'm sure others feel the same.

Paul tried hard to make classifieds work to no avail.

Am I a dick for selling that game on eBay and getting what it went for?? If you think I am, I can't possibly agree with you.

And Davey, that is a truly beautiful TOM, no doubt someone will want it for your more than fair asking IMO
 
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These classic 90’s games are only going up in value, mind you so are EM’s and so are late 70’s/early 80’s SS’s.

The newer sterns are the ones to be careful of, they don’t have the build quality, proven longevity, repairability, staying power, wider appeal of their forefathers. Don’t get me wrong i’ll still buy modern. love my star trek pro. prick and morty and can’t wait for gnr to land.
 
I rarely comment but as I sold 2 TOM’s in December I thought I would put my 1p worth in 😂, one TOM was bought from Italy and cost me 4k, apart from the playfield being ok it was a wreck, I then thought I saw a better condition one on another site not realising the seller was also on here and that was a wreck too for 4.5k
You can see both my shop logs for these and the amount of time, effort and money I spent.
They sold before they were finished, to members on here who followed the shop log.
I gave them a price before completion which I did my best to stick to and still lost money.
They sold for £5750 and £6250.
I’m also doing a WH20 currently, that cost me 3k to buy and it worked for 3 days ! I’ve spent over 3k on it already, will I get my money back ? Probably not, is it worth 6.5k? It is to me, probably more with the time I’ve put in.
Should I finally realise that pinball is bad for my bank balance - probably !
 
roadshow16 said:
Myself and Matt are singing from the same hymn sheet here.

We have had more flare ups in the last few months on here than I can remember in the last 10 years combined. And they all focus around price.

I know that it will always play a big part in the hobby, it always has (well has done for the last 20 or so years that I've been collecting).

I saw a post from @strobey the other day on this thread where he said, we are all pinheads, we all know the value of these things. But more and more recently, I'm feeling like my grasp of what the current market is, is really off the mark.

So I listed my Dr Who on eBay instead of on here (yes, that one). The comments on the For Sale on eBay thread were interesting to read, I wonder if they would have been the same if you knew it was me listing it. I listed it at 99p and let it ride, it went for £1420, the market decided the price. Can you imagine the comments I would have received if I had listed that game for £1420 on here!!! Or some of the responses I would have received if I had asked on the what is this game worth thread!! Did I think it would go for that, no. Is it worth that, well one person thinks so, and another guy thought it was worth £1400 for it to end at £1420, so that's what it was worth. Do I disagree with the comments you guys made, no. But perhaps there is something to learn from it and surely you can see now why I didn't list it on here! For those interested, the guy buying was very happy, he wanted a real challenge, ground up restoration, has done some before but not this far gone and was delighted with how much work he would have to do, everyone was happy.

So what's the answer? Obviously I would prefer to list anything I want to sale on here, but my god sometimes the flack and pressure that I feel from doing it really isn't worth it. I'm sure others feel the same.

Paul tried hard to make classifieds work to no avail.

Am I a dick for selling that game on eBay and getting what it went for?? If you think I am, I can't possibly agree with you.

And Davey, that is a truly beautiful TOM, no doubt someone will want it for your more than fair asking IMO
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A very measured response. Listing your Dr Who on eBay was 100% correct given the condition.

If you listed a minter / VGC TOM with a 99p start and no reserve there is absolutely no chance of it hitting £6,000. Fixed price is the way to go on these machines (with a bit of haggling). People bidding on eBay auctions want a serious bargain usually.

I’ve bought three bombed out machines on eBay / Gumtree in the last two years. Two now look mint condition and play fantastic - I’d sell on here before dealing with all the chancers / traders on eBay. It’s also cost me a small fortune to restore them so I won’t be selling anyway.
 
I sold a Dr Who to someone in Bristol 15 years ago for £500 but it was nothing like that one😂
 
It’s just funny because it’s the same thing over and over again.

so much tension and everyone has an opinion and so willing to jump on someone else.

I keep away from posting my thoughts, I did it once upset someone I felt bad over it and apologised when they came into Tilt and from that point decided not to comment on other peoples machines but just comment on the replies etc

me and @CHRIS B PINBALLS have discussed pricing… he thinks I’m a fool for buying old school solid state sterns for what I pay and I’m happy to be the fool because I love those machines and I know the longer I wait the less likely I’ll be able to buy them in the future

my only regret is not buying more machines 6 or 7 years ago
 
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Beowulfz07 said:
I rarely comment but as I sold 2 TOM’s in December I thought I would put my 1p worth in 😂, one TOM was bought from Italy and cost me 4k, apart from the playfield being ok it was a wreck, I then thought I saw a better condition one on another site not realising the seller was also on here and that was a wreck too for 4.5k
You can see both my shop logs for these and the amount of time, effort and money I spent.
They sold before they were finished, to members on here who followed the shop log.
I gave them a price before completion which I did my best to stick to and still lost money.
They sold for £5750 and £6250.
I’m also doing a WH20 currently, that cost me 3k to buy and it worked for 3 days ! I’ve spent over 3k on it already, will I get my money back ? Probably not, is it worth 6.5k? It is to me, probably more with the time I’ve put in.
Should I finally realise that pinball is bad for my bank balance - probably !
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I think a decent wh20 is 5k players condition. restored. 7k. shoot me down if you want. but try get one.
 
You know why this problem will never be solved? Because it's the heart of what makes this community valuable. This is the only place you can arrive at a reasonable understanding of the value of these things and it's worked out in debate between people who know a lot about the subject but often don't agree. It's that tension that keeps prices fair and builds an informed community of buyers and sellers. It's messy and fractious but there's no better way to deal in Pinball tables anywhere. Everyone knows that. That's not despite the debates, it's because of them. That's the work the community does that generates value. Paul, this issue will always drive you crazy but it's because the site dares to face this debate that makes it any good. I thank you for fighting the good fight. This site is better than you know...
 
stumblor said:
You're right of course Daniel - I'm just not sure the best place to have that debate is in a thread where I am trying to keep the focus on selling my machine.

Anyway, it's sold now, and me and Neil are sweet, so alls well. Crack on everyone [emoji869]
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I knew there’d be a post soon saying it’s sold - great news and not at all surprising.
It’s a good example of people derailing a thread and commenting on value to no avail as someone out there decided it’s right for them hence it’s sold.
Deja vu here regarding a Star Trek Pro [emoji848] (that I’m still enjoying!)


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Ahh but it might have sold somewhere else, and the thread derailment completely screwed me!


..
But it didn't it sold here. :)
 
If anyone has any of those very good condition TOMs for £4k can you let me know - I'll take a few.
 
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I'm new to all of this so far be it from me to say what a pin is worth but I must admit as somoene who is new to the scene its hard to guage what a pinball machine is worth.

Americans have Pinside and Pinballprices while the UK has nothing.

I was and have been trudging through the for sale ad's building up a price history of what machines have sold for but its a huge task. Has anyone ever thought of producing a price tracker spreadsheet which we can feed into?

I don't expect people to partake in personal details but the usual 'condition' and advertised price (not negotiated price) would be a start.

We could also capture from Facebook and eBay?

It would save a lot of drama IMO and provide people with what the 'going rate' is for something or atleast some price history to base their decision on pricing their particular Pinball machine.

Just a thought,

Scott
 
The usa sites are useful, so is the european forum flippermarkt.de

Historical prices help to plot trends, asking price can also be used to plot trends especially if you can historically correlate asking prices against actual price sold/bought.

condition is a big factor, so are mods, so is type of trade, ie a dealer , retailer or private sale.

there is no way to automate the info gathering, doing it by hand becomes a time consuming job.

It’s a lot easier to ask a question on the “how much is this table worth” thread.
 
s000m said:
I'm new to all of this so far be it from me to say what a pin is worth but I must admit as somoene who is new to the scene its hard to guage what a pinball machine is worth.

Americans have Pinside and Pinballprices while the UK has nothing.

I was and have been trudging through the for sale ad's building up a price history of what machines have sold for but its a huge task. Has anyone ever thought of producing a price tracker spreadsheet which we can feed into?

I don't expect people to partake in personal details but the usual 'condition' and advertised price (not negotiated price) would be a start.

We could also capture from Facebook and eBay?

It would save a lot of drama IMO and provide people with what the 'going rate' is for something or atleast some price history to base their decision on pricing their particular Pinball machine.

Just a thought,

Scott
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A good way is to look through previous sale posts on here for sold prices as sales on here usually go at or close to asking price and condition is well described to make comparisons easy.
For example , I wanted a TOM so I looked at past sale prices on here and decided this one was a fair price and so I bought it 😀
 
s000m said:
I'm new to all of this so far be it from me to say what a pin is worth but I must admit as somoene who is new to the scene its hard to guage what a pinball machine is worth.

Americans have Pinside and Pinballprices while the UK has nothing.

I was and have been trudging through the for sale ad's building up a price history of what machines have sold for but its a huge task. Has anyone ever thought of producing a price tracker spreadsheet which we can feed into?

I don't expect people to partake in personal details but the usual 'condition' and advertised price (not negotiated price) would be a start.

We could also capture from Facebook and eBay?

It would save a lot of drama IMO and provide people with what the 'going rate' is for something or atleast some price history to base their decision on pricing their particular Pinball machine.

Just a thought,

Scott
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I've got an excel spreadsheet I populated with eBay sales from 2006 but I think prices have varied since then[emoji3]

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