No Longer Available Theatre of Magic - price drop 6k

[Tilt_Birmingham]

@stumblor sick it on https://www.flippermarkt.de

One similar to yours sold recently for around £6500 most European buyer know how to deal with pallet deliveries

Great looking machine btw

 

[thejefu]

so if someone tried to sell a flintstones for 10k, how would that possibly be justified unless it's gold plated? Completely impractical and unpolicable.
If something was Stolen (unfortunately we have had that before) then would that be outlawed too to call that out? How about if someone wanted to tell the seller they were charging too little? Does it work both ways?

That's not our job. People can and do pay stupid money for stupid things all the time. The first priority here should be to offer people an approachable place to sell pins in an environment which attracts users who are more likely to sell at reasonable prices. What's happened in this thread is a cancer that will increasingly destroy it. You're putting in barriers which other services do not have and that is price feedback. Machines will continue to increasingly be sold elsewhere.

If someone posted a Flinstones at 10k, I am completely in favor of threads being started pointing this out in other areas of the forum. I'm also completely in favor of threads being started warning people about repeated individuals. I'm also completely in favor of you and others making executive decisions to remove serial overpricers.

Lots of ways to deal with it. We have that advantage where as Ebay and Facebook do not. That makes us competitive. What doesn't is letting smart asses (speaking generally) tell people what their gear is worth and thinking that this will somehow be conducive to people selling here.

 

[Paul]

I'm a MASSIVE believer in making sure newcomers to the hobby dont get fleeced by those who are out to make £££. I have previously on FB called someone out if they are blatently taking the mickey. It's wrong and would drive people away from what already is a very expensive hobby...
Yes, there's a number of times on here where i have had to bite my tongue on a price. HOWEVER because i am an admin, and unless a scam etc then its not my place to comment unless it's blatent, when i wouldnt hesitate. but i also know that the price is the price... it'll either sit here for weeks unsold and the person will go elsewhere.
However I can restrain myself from commenting for the most part.. i just suck through my teeth like a car mechanic and move on.

 

[thejefu]

I'm a MASSIVE believer in making sure newcomers to the hobby dont get fleeced by those who are out to make £££. I have previously on FB called someone out if they are blatently taking the mickey. It's wrong and would drive people away from what already is a very expensive hobby...
Yes, there's a number of times on here where i have had to bite my tongue on a price. HOWEVER because i am an admin, and unless a scam etc then its not my place to comment unless it's blatent, when i wouldnt hesitate. but i also know that the price is the price... it'll either sit here for weeks unsold and the person will go elsewhere.
However I can restrain myself from commenting for the most part.. i just suck through my teeth like a car mechanic and move on.

I've had my own machines moved on at fair prices and sold extortionately. It is what it is.

All I value is that I know I can keep coming back here and getting more fair prices and keep offering them. I don't need people telling me how to do that and my fear is that this will diminish if they do.

 

[stumblor]

I do remember this WAS discussed... the consesnsus was that comments would be allowed, and if those related to price then so be it, the seller could ignore it. In theory, the easist action (in my view) if I was the seller and someone did this to me, would be to explain all the mods on the machine in detail, as is done here, and you know what - the price is the price... you dont have to buy it...
Some people like the mods and would pay to have them added. some dont like them. The price is the price... not prepared to pay it or discuss in a PM with the seller... move along...

I totally get why you are mad about the classifieds section getting shouted down. Considering all the work that was involved it was massively upsetting that people didn't give it more of a go. Personally, I thought benefits far outweighed the negatives - and most of those were people not really being bothered to learn how to use it. But I get the impression you see this train wreck of a thread as a bit of comeuppance to the naysayers. The thing is, the naysayers are still putting the boot in, and I'm having to defend myself against comparisons of trying to make a Ford look like a Ferrari.

The only time these threads go crazy is when the seller responds to daft comments that would otherwise get ignored.

Okay right so your advice is not to defend myself? Hard pass on the not defending myself.

 

[Rob zombie]

That's not our job. People can and do pay stupid money for stupid things all the time. The first priority here should be to offer people an approachable place to sell pins in an environment which attracts users who are more likely to sell at reasonable prices. What's happened in this thread is a cancer that will increasingly destroy it. You're putting in barriers which other services do not have and that is price feedback. Machines will continue to increasingly be sold elsewhere.

If someone posted a Flinstones at 10k, I am completely in favor of threads being started pointing this out in other areas

I totally get why you are mad about the classifieds section getting shouted down. Considering all the work that was involved it was massively upsetting that people didn't give it more of a go. Personally, I thought benefits far outweighed the negatives - and most of those were people not really being bothered to learn how to use it. But I get the impression you see this train wreck of a thread as a bit of comeuppance to the naysayers. The thing is, the naysayers are still putting the boot in, and I'm having to defend myself against comparisons of trying to make a Ford look like a Ferrari.



Okay right so your advice is not to defend myself? Hard pass on the not defending myself.

Pick your battles. Wait. Other people will fight your battles for you if it's a just cause. You had lots of people swooning over it (including myself) but now the one negative comment has spawned a huge debate and become the focus. It's no longer a sales thread because the invitation to debate was accepted. Now it's a debate. Which is a shame.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

I thought there was a massive debate about derailing comments on for sale threads. People should refrain from posting unhelpful, and frankly misguiding comments. Comments do sway people; not everyone, but not everyone has full market information or experience, or haven't been in the game for years and years.

It's getting tedious, really tedious. Why write pointy comments when you know it will cause friction? It's pretty clear that plenty of members are feeling got at and the community is being divided by a few.

Don't like it? Not relevant to you? Scroll on. Stop trolling, it's not clever, not appreciated and devisive.

Yup I couldn’t agree ****ing more - don’t troll and ToM is a 4K game.

Half the folks moaning about price are on the eBay thread giving their opinion there but saying don’t do it here. You having a giraffe!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Rob zombie]

What we've got here is failure to communicate
Some men, you just can't reach
So, you get what we had here, last week
Which is the way he wants it
Well, he gets it

 

[Sam C]

It’s the same old same old in my opinion.

People living in 2014 still when a ToM could probably be had for around 4K and gawp now that all these games that used to be a lower price are now fetching more due to pinflation.
People living now selling them for what buyers are willing to pay because the price has gone up.

If a game doesn’t sell because it’s too highly priced, the seller will find that out in time themselves. Nothing good comes of price policing unless it’s something crazy that obviously needs to be pointed out like the example 10k Flintstones.

 

[Darthsinex]

Can I ask? If there is 1 person that seems to cause 99% of all the divisiveness, trolling, ill feeling and bad blood on this site, why oh why are they just not removed? Is there some kind of cult of personality around here I'm missing?

 

[The seeker]

Yup I couldn’t agree ****ing more - don’t troll and ToM is a 4K game.

Half the folks moaning about price are on the eBay thread giving their opinion there but saying don’t do it here. You having a giraffe!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Neil I stuck up for you last time but your last comment comes across as stirring the pot AGAIN !

 

[Andydn]

Anyway.....
Lovely Theatre of Magic - possibly still for sale. 6K - PM seller if interested [emoji106]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Paul]

Can I ask? If there is 1 person that seems to cause 99% of all the divisiveness, trolling, ill feeling and bad blood on this site, why oh why are they just not removed? Is there some kind of cult of personality around here I'm missing?

It's because other than potentially being contraversial, or trolling fo a reaction, he is expressing an oppinion.

If you said something and i came along and completely denounced it... told you that you were wrong, would you be happy?

It;s playing a game... Technically he has done nothing wrong. Nothing against the rules.. I do have the right in my back pocket that we can remove anyone at any time for any reason, but that is a whole new slippery slope.

Neil likes the drama... likes the responses. As the edict goes - dont feed the troll... just ignore it and move on. It'll get bored in the end.

 

[Dave Bishop]

With the price of new games now coming in at £10-11K (Prem/LE) I do not see why older games cannot climb in value.. Although older, they still have more features than new games, the playfields are 20-30yrs old and don’t pool or chip!

looking at the TOM - a lot of bling- if that coin door is a pinball plating door then that’s worth £450!

I’ve said it before- something is worth only what someone is willing to pay! I do not see this TOM’s price as trying to rip someone off. It’s a nice example, games are on the rise in accordance with the price of new games


Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it’s just a real shame that the opinion of certain people is that their opinion should be that of everyone else’s and if it’s not them they continue to drone on about it.

But what do I know.. I paid £3K for a BM66 topper, so a whole machine for £6K is pretty good IMO

I don’t give a s4it about how a game would play in a tournament. I like games that are fun and a blast to play. TOM is fun.

 

[Replay]

Pinball prices have always made little sense.

I remember no one wanted STTNG's when they were around £1000, and then ONE sold for £2000 and almost overnight it became a 2k game! And it's not rare.....

I bought my TOM for £1800 in 2012, and now TOM is a who knows what price game? Answers on a postcard.

As new buyers come into the hobby they buy at whatever the current price is, add a few bits, expect to not lose anything, and pass it onto the next person!

It's a game of pass the parcel, with the ever increasing NIB prices aiding the process. When I bought my TOM , I could buy a NIB TRON LE for £5350.

People have argued about prices ever since I joined the hobby and I don't see that changing soon!

 

[waynej4]

Half the folks moaning about price are on the eBay thread giving their opinion there but saying don’t do it here. You having a giraffe!

Yep, I made this point a couple months ago too. You can ONLY have a go on the ebay thread...but not if the seller is a member of this forum too ! It does seem to be a double standard!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion, it’s just a real shame that the opinion of certain people is that their opinion should be that of everyone else’s and if it’s not them they continue to drone on about it.

Almost no one seems to have agreed with @Neil McRae regarding the price in this thread! Read the posts, make your own mind up, ignore everything else.

For what it's worth, and I'm no expert on pinball pricing, or anything pinball , but reading through all the comments it sounds like the price for this is pretty much in the ballpark for what the seller was/is asking.

GLWS

 

[stumblor]

Okay so seems like the general consensus is that Neil likes to talk sh1te and that my price is about right.

@Paul Could we sticky post the above findings please and avoid 3 pages of faff next time

 

[paul h]

There's an Ebay thread to discuss Ebay prices, so why not have a sticky thread to discuss forum prices? Then posters querying sale prices could simply be referred to the correct thread.

Also, moving the "what is this table worth" away from the noobie section might help people discuss prices away from sale posts.

 

[MadNat]

I’d convinced myself that this thread had been hijacked to prove you don’t need to be fuelled up on ale, wine and/or spirits to get a heated debate around here.

Congratulations to the forums Cheif Psychology Officer and provoker [mention]Neil McRae [/mention] - a very successful experiment!

Can we get back to more normal forum nonsense now please? Thank you [emoji3]

 

[Tilt_Birmingham]

Still a tough one - a very good condition one of these is 4K so 2K for the bling tax is steep but a bargain compared to doing one up yourself - GLWS - one of the favourite games for the family in my shed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I would just like to point @Neil McRae actually said @stumblor machine was a bargain....

People love a good drama and to attack Neil for no reason what so ever... Who actually read Neil's first post in this thread?

 

[waynej4]

^^^ Exactly this!

But Neil always talks sh1te, so this must be wrong!

 

[Andy_B]

Yep, I made this point a couple months ago too. You can ONLY have a go on the ebay thread...but not if the seller is a member of this forum too ! It does seem to be a double standard!


Almost no one seems to have agreed with @Neil McRae regarding the price in this thread! Read the posts, make your own mind up, ignore everything else.

For what it's worth, and I'm no expert on pinball pricing, or anything pinball , but reading through all the comments it sounds like the price for this is pretty much in the ballpark for what the seller was/is asking.

GLWS

A point I also made a few weeks ago!


Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[stumblor]

I would just like to point @Neil McRae actually said @stumblor machine was a bargain....

People love a good drama and to attack Neil for no reason what so ever... Who actually read Neil's first post in this thread?

He did Kirk - alongside calling it pricey and a whole heap of other bollock5. If I call someone a twat, but then follow up with "but only sometimes", is that a compliment?

Can't speak for others, but I avoid drama (to the point of apathy). Most people could attest to that. Everyone has their limits though.

 

[Andy_B]

He did Kirk - alongside calling it pricey and a whole heap of other bollock5. If I call someone a twat, but then follow up with "but only sometimes", is that a compliment?

Can't speak for others, but I avoid drama (to the point of apathy). Most people could attest to that. Everyone has their limits though.

Clearly not.

Sent from my SM-G960F using Tapatalk

 

[Matt Vince]

My 2 pence!!

I don't think Neil's initial comment was as way off as some people have suggested. He stated that it was a bargain in the condition it was offered which I read as an endorsement of Dave's work.

Is a players TOM worth 5k? It would likely have dings and marks on the cab, a broken trunk plastic and a smashed centre ramp plus whatever else the previous owner hadn't noticed. I wouldn't pay it and doubt many here would!
What Dave was offering was a very high end restoration and these rightly come at a higher price.

I have commented on for sale ads in the past myself (usually on facebook) but my threashold is when i believe the price is double what you should expect to pay and I wouldn't want to see someone (in my mind) ripped off. I didn't see any suggestions of that in this case.

In fairness to Neil, he does sell his machines at a lower price than he could get if he was out for every penny. I know he has a knack of rubbing people up the wrong way at times but I think a desire to 'pile onto him' has meant the actual post has become irrelevant here.

The truth is that as enthusiasts we (for the most part) already have the machines and are happy to see the prices of old games rise as we get the benefit of inflation, just remember that we also reap what we sow. The downside of high priced sales is that there are very few bargins anymore, or affordable machines for your average punter which means less new people being able to join our great hobby. Even if they do pick up a 'cheaper' machine, the likelyhood is it'll need work which they won't have the knowledge or skills to carry out and end up leaving the hobby with a bad taste in their mouths.

I don't exclude myself from being part of the problem, I too have upped my asking prices in recent years for fear that i wouldn't be able to replace a sold machine with an equivalent at the same price.

I also understand the frustrations of someone selling a machine when the entire thread becomes a debate about what the price should or shouldn't be. Perhaps in future we should agree as a community not to comment on a price unless we genuinely feel it is scandalous (after all, you are under no obligation to buy) and if a forum member gets a great price from an ebay auction, congratulate them. No one offers you extra when one sells for below the 'market' price.

 

[AllstarDK]

My 2 pence!!

I don't think Neil's initial comment was as way off as some people have suggested. He stated that it was a bargain in the condition it was offered which I read as an endorsement of Dave's work.

Is a players TOM worth 5k? It would likely have dings and marks on the cab, a broken trunk plastic and a smashed centre ramp plus whatever else the previous owner hadn't noticed. I wouldn't pay it and doubt many here would!
What Dave was offering was a very high end restoration and these rightly come at a higher price.

I have commented on for sale ads in the past myself (usually on facebook) but my threashold is when i believe the price is double what you should expect to pay and I wouldn't want to see someone (in my mind) ripped off. I didn't see any suggestions of that in this case.

In fairness to Neil, he does sell his machines at a lower price than he could get if he was out for every penny. I know he has a knack of rubbing people up the wrong way at times but I think a desire to 'pile onto him' has meant the actual post has become irrelevant here.

The truth is that as enthusiasts we (for the most part) already have the machines and are happy to see the prices of old games rise as we get the benefit of inflation, just remember that we also reep what we sow. The downside of high priced sales is that there are very few bargins anymore, or affordable machines for your average punter which means less new people being able to join our great hobby. Even if they do pick up a 'cheaper' machine, the likelyhood is it'll need work which they won't have the knowledge or skills to carry out and end up leaving the hobby with a bad taste in their mouths.

I don't exclude myself from being part of the problem, I too have upped my asking prices in recent years for fear that i wouldn't be able to replace a sold machine with an equivalent at the same price.

I also understand the frustrations of someone selling a machine when the entire thread becomes a debate about what the price should or shouldn't be. Perhaps in future we should agree as a community not to comment on a price unless we genuinely feel it is scandalous (after all, you are under no obligation to buy) and if a forum member gets a great price from an ebay auction, congratulate them. No one offers you extra when one sells for below the 'market' price.

Well said matt

 

[huggers]

 

[Jmac]

My 2 pence!!

I don't think Neil's initial comment was as way off as some people have suggested. He stated that it was a bargain in the condition it was offered which I read as an endorsement of Dave's work.

Is a players TOM worth 5k? It would likely have dings and marks on the cab, a broken trunk plastic and a smashed centre ramp plus whatever else the previous owner hadn't noticed. I wouldn't pay it and doubt many here would!
What Dave was offering was a very high end restoration and these rightly come at a higher price.

I have commented on for sale ads in the past myself (usually on facebook) but my threashold is when i believe the price is double what you should expect to pay and I wouldn't want to see someone (in my mind) ripped off. I didn't see any suggestions of that in this case.

In fairness to Neil, he does sell his machines at a lower price than he could get if he was out for every penny. I know he has a knack of rubbing people up the wrong way at times but I think a desire to 'pile onto him' has meant the actual post has become irrelevant here.

The truth is that as enthusiasts we (for the most part) already have the machines and are happy to see the prices of old games rise as we get the benefit of inflation, just remember that we also reap what we sow. The downside of high priced sales is that there are very few bargins anymore, or affordable machines for your average punter which means less new people being able to join our great hobby. Even if they do pick up a 'cheaper' machine, the likelyhood is it'll need work which they won't have the knowledge or skills to carry out and end up leaving the hobby with a bad taste in their mouths.

I don't exclude myself from being part of the problem, I too have upped my asking prices in recent years for fear that i wouldn't be able to replace a sold machine with an equivalent at the same price.

I also understand the frustrations of someone selling a machine when the entire thread becomes a debate about what the price should or shouldn't be. Perhaps in future we should agree as a community not to comment on a price unless we genuinely feel it is scandalous (after all, you are under no obligation to buy) and if a forum member gets a great price from an ebay auction, congratulate them. No one offers you extra when one sells for below the 'market' price.

This. Nailed it

 

[MajesticPinball]

This forum is so bloody painful sometimes. If a machine is up for sale and you don't like the price, don't buy it, don't comment on it, don't even look at it... Just go to the next thread and get on with your life.

If somebody new to the forum posts a machine for sale that seems a little dodgy, for an outrageous price then by all means say something and question it - but remember not everyone is scamming. How many new people in the hobby need to be scared away from the forum for the same ol' mob to lower their pitch forks a little? Do we honestly need this same boring argument time and time again? Just keep price comments to yourself. A cheeky newsflash for all the people stuck in 2005 but Pinballs are selling for a lot more money now days, especially outside of this forum between private collectors and that sadly is a fact.

Personally I thought the classifieds were a vast improvement, even when beta testing with the rest of the team at the start I thought it was going to be such an asset. It did feel as though it killed discussion a little but at the end of the day - what needs to be discussed on somebody else's sale? If you're genuinely interested and have a few questions you'd message the seller directly surely? There doesn't need to be a discussion and price bash all the time.

Davey, it's a beautiful machine and well worth the money to somebody who collects absolute mint WPC machines. Give it time and it will sell mate.

 

[waynej4]

Has Wednesday become the new Saturday!?

Not sure how those expressing their personal opinions about which Classifieds they preferred helps Paul at all! Paul changed back to this format because, as I understand it, the majority of people preferred it this way (majority consensus can be a strange concept to 16.4m, I know!).