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Champions League of Pinball

I think that this thread perfectly represents the sometimes fractured state of the UK Pinball scene. I understand that the majority of people in the UK aren't interested in competitive pinball, but there are a few of us that are. But what I don't understand is the need to damn the idea before it has even begun, ever heard the saying 'if you can't say something nice, then say nothing at all?'. The same people, whenever anything to do with competition comes up, feel the need to chime in with there take on how competitive pinball is not for them, they'd rather be getting ****ed with there mates, fixing machines and having a jolly. I get it. That's fun.

But a few of us in the UK also find fun in competing against each other on these fun machines. We're not trying to ruin your hobby, we just enjoy a different aspect of it, and if you don't get it, its cool, but don't belittle it either. I'm not interested in the fixing/restoration/modding side of the hobby, but I don't chime in on every thread about these things saying how they aren't for me and how I'd much rather be competing. That seems ridiculous doesn't it.

Wayne you mentioned how certain people go half way across Europe chasing points, have you ever thought that perhaps that's because they would like to be surrounded by more likeminded people, that in general doesn't exist in the UK. We are a small niche hobby, surely there is room for all of it to exist? And if there is no demand for it in the UK, then those who are interested will need to travel.
 
There will be a lock in at nlp in Blackpool,which if ya bring a pin you will be able to get in.So bring a pin,go Blackpool and sort a tourny there with like minded iindividuals, you will have to play on a game when it's free
but it
shouldn't be a problem.At least people will be there anyway
 
roadshow16 said:
I think that this thread perfectly represents the sometimes fractured state of the UK Pinball scene. I understand that the majority of people in the UK aren't interested in competitive pinball, but there are a few of us that are. But what I don't understand is the need to damn the idea before it has even begun, ever heard the saying 'if you can't say something nice, then say nothing at all?'. The same people, whenever anything to do with competition comes up, feel the need to chime in with there take on how competitive pinball is not for them, they'd rather be getting ****ed with there mates, fixing machines and having a jolly. I get it. That's fun.

But a few of us in the UK also find fun in competing against each other on these fun machines. We're not trying to ruin your hobby, we just enjoy a different aspect of it, and if you don't get it, its cool, but don't belittle it either. I'm not interested in the fixing/restoration/modding side of the hobby, but I don't chime in on every thread about these things saying how they aren't for me and how I'd much rather be competing. That seems ridiculous doesn't it.

Wayne you mentioned how certain people go half way across Europe chasing points, have you ever thought that perhaps that's because they would like to be surrounded by more likeminded people, that in general doesn't exist in the UK. We are a small niche hobby, surely there is room for all of it to exist? And if there is no demand for it in the UK, then those who are interested will need to travel.
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Its not about competing, its the intensions behind it...

There are such individuals who any care about the points and wanting to be named the best... They aren't currently happy with the current rankings and have to dig deep to try justify why they are better then someone else...

All this takes away from the hobby and enjoyment of pinball...
 
Tilt_Birmingham said:
Its not about competing, its the intensions behind it...

There are such individuals who any care about the points and wanting to be named the best... They aren't currently happy with the current rankings and have to dig deep to try justify why they are better then someone else...

All this takes away from the hobby and enjoyment of pinball...
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So competition takes away enjoyment of the hobby for you. Fair enough. For me, it is my favourite thing about the hobby. Can we co-exist within this hobby? We disagree on this, but we still get on well with each other don't we Kirk?

The intentions and reasoning behind why people are interested or not interested in certain aspects of the hobby is personal. If an individual is desperate to acquire as many points as possible to be ranked as the number 1 UK player on the IFPA website, that's up to them, that's the enjoyment that they get out of the hobby, that's ok for them to do! If someone wants to take all of there bulbs out of there game and put in LEDS, thats enjoyment for them, that's ok for them to do!

Trying to dictate how people should or shouldn't enjoy the hobby is wrong. It takes all sorts
 
roadshow16 said:
So competition takes away enjoyment of the hobby for you. Fair enough. For me, it is my favourite thing about the hobby. Can we co-exist within this hobby? We disagree on this, but we still get on well with each other don't we Kirk?

The intentions and reasoning behind why people are interested or not interested in certain aspects of the hobby is personal. If an individual is desperate to acquire as many points as possible to be ranked as the number 1 UK player on the IFPA website, that's up to them, that's the enjoyment that they get out of the hobby, that's ok for them to do! If someone wants to take all of there bulbs out of there game and put in LEDS, thats enjoyment for them, that's ok for them to do!

Trying to dictate how people should or shouldn't enjoy the hobby is wrong. It takes all sorts
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Waynes first PRO... It would mean that once and for all, there would be some kind of closure as to which region/player is the strongest, as we would all be playing against each other, over an extended period of time - not just who was strongest on the day.

He's done this for his own intentions not for the love of Pinball... Its this sort of scheming I don't like... He's not happy he's ranked lower then others he's openly said as much

I like playing in comps and leagues as much as you... I have won the Tilt league back to back seasons but when someone says the best person didn't win... that takes the enjoyment out of it for me

This thread is not for the love of pinball or even competitive pinball
 
Tilt_Birmingham said:
Waynes first PRO... It would mean that once and for all, there would be some kind of closure as to which region/player is the strongest, as we would all be playing against each other, over an extended period of time - not just who was strongest on the day.

He's done this for his own intentions not for the love of Pinball... Its this sort of scheming I don't like... He's not happy he's ranked lower then others he's openly said as much

I like playing in comps and leagues as much as you... I have won the Tilt league back to back seasons but when someone says the best person didn't win... that takes the enjoyment out of it for me

This thread is not for the love of pinball or even competitive pinball
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Fact is, it doesn't matter how good you are, luck can go for or against you, even in a longer tournament. I think on their day there are probably 6 players who could claim to be the best player in the UK, the great thing about pinball is that we can all have a bad game so almost anyone can be beaten by someone else.

I gave up chasing points a long time ago, I was happy in my own mind that I'm a decent player and I decided I didn't need a ranking to justify that. The fact is that a LOT of moaning goes on throughout tournaments (all over Europe, not just here!) such as "that switch didn't register for me but did for the other player" or "the ball save light was on and the ball didn't come back" etc, no one is ever happy it seems.

I understand what you're saying Kirk, the petty moaning can get a bit too much sometimes, you have to let it go and understand it's just the frustration of unfulfilled potential (and also a slight lack of class to be able to say "well done"). I also understand Craig's point and I think he put it very well, why do people come into a thread like this to say "I'm in it for a laugh and the beer at X place" it is discourteous, we really should say in every show/meet thread "are you having a competitive WPPR valid tournament at the event/meeting and if not, why not".

Anyway, I've offered to play Craig head to head winner takes all, but only if the switches work properly and the ball saves are long enough :thumbs:
 
IMHO the issue you are facing @roadshow16 is that in the UK most folk who are willing to travel and participate in tournaments do not give a damn about points, and would rather they had never been invented in the first place. They just want a decent amount of competitive play for their travel time and money

Making the tournaments juicy from a points perspective (lengthy knock out type scenarios that go on all night) can put off the numptee players who will never win anything but who you need to get the numbers up to maximise the points opportunity given how few UK players there are.

I think there are two real world solutions to this

1. Focus on large, high points international tournaments as Rich Mallet has done. As a result he is the highest ranked UK player right now

and

2. Try to get two day tournaments (like the one at the Heighway factory) at the major UK shows. These give the numptees a decent amount of value for money competitive pinball on day one, without loads of delays caused by 4 player games bottle necking long play machines like spiderman ( 8 bit flip). And the points motivated players can fill their boots on day two with a long knock-out stage

With Daventry and NLP there are potentially 2 UK opportunities per year for large scale tournaments that could please numptees and points fans alike
 
I also understand Craig's point and I think he put it very well, why do people come into a thread like this to say "I'm in it for a laugh and the beer at X place" it is discourteous, really should say in every show/meet thread "are you having a competitive WPPR valid tournament at the event/meeting and if not, why not".



Tbh i couldn't give a crap if someone is bothered and thinks i am discourteous for mentioning that,for me I prefer a pint and a laff at a show in this thread,it's a public forum.There are those that like a really serious get together competitive thing,and there are those that don't.Newtons law.Putting it out there that thete is enough at shows for all types
 
Amazing range of responses in the thread, really running the gamut. May as well chip in with my own two cents:

More tournaments of any kind - in general I honestly struggle to see how that can be a negative thing.

What brings people into the hobby is having more well-maintained and fully functional machines out in the wild. Tilt is an amazing venue that shows off some of the best games out there; Steve brings a row of machines to the various current and retro gaming events and they are all absolutely hammered senseless non-stop, and not by scene players, just passers-by. NLP events are just an absolute spectacle. And those are just the things that I've personally seen. I can say that these kinds of things combined are what got me looking into pinball more seriously again. The tournaments are cream on top and are 'preaching to the choir', so I think you only have to cater for players that know what they're doing, at the various skill levels.

We have open tournaments and relaxed tournaments. Why can't we have high-intensity tournaments that are as much glory-hunting as anything else? They don't suddenly erase the open tournaments, the events that introduce more people to pinball or have-a-laugh events. I've been involved in an e-sports team (****ing away my life) before, and I've been to Korea to play in a worldwide tournament for... 'another arcade game' let's just say, but that doesn't mean that it's all I do. I almost take it personally when people act like I've had my fun-gland removed just because I'm capable of really getting into a proper competitive skill-test. I'm not ignorant to some of the people that do act like massive ****holes when getting too involved in things, doing things like beating machines up, or throwing their toys out of the pram and walking off when there's a simple communication fault about queuing during seeding. These people are NOT the rule! They would not be tolerated in a high-level tournament any more than any current event.


On practical terms and a bit more on topic... I've been thinking about it and honestly, I think the idea is in trouble from the start for the same reason that I had to exit the competitive scene for that 'other arcade game' I mentioned earlier - the player base is simply too small, and the international scoring method that has been adopted mathematically screws the UK out of competing on a level playing field. You only have to look at Rich Mallet's score sheet https://www.ifpapinball.com/player.php?p=10855 - he's put in an absolute ton of effort collecting points, travelling across Europe and playing as many tournaments as possible, with very strong results - and all that gets him is 85th on the world ranking. That's just ****-poor and anyone trying to tell me that it's a fair way to rank players internationally can go jump in my opinion. You only have to look at the player-vs-player scoring to see a very different version of events, and for the evidence that this ranking system doesn't work across countries all that well.

To have any kind of status as a 'prestige' tournament, you would need to establish a reason for that status to be bestowed on the tournament. I would be surprised if yet another long-running league could be propped up by enough competitive players to justify it, and one-off events can only pretend to have that status by charging huge entry fees. I'd support the idea of a competitive, 'definitive' tournament but honestly? I don't think the UK can pull it off.
 
After being at NYC at one of the best tourneys ever its depressing to read this. Craig hit it on the head. So I think WPPR points are important to a lot of folks and I think competing is important to a lot of folks. I think UK players are placed correctly on the ranking. The New York guys did their first tourney, and they just set it up as theiy wanted it to be, hard, tough and fun. What was amazing about it was the lack of moaning about stuff.

But if you want to fool yourself into thinking that because the ranking system says your brilliant then must be, then you are an idiot. I know Wayne is a good player, I know Rich and Craig are great players because I’ve seen them in matches do staggering things. I don’t have a flicking clue where there are on the ranking? Jon Repogle I actually didn’t think he was that good a player until I watched him eat a Star Trek that had spat out Elwin, Sheats and Kerin’s and many others alive.

Brilliant players are recognised for brilliant performances and brilliant players who put in brilliant performances are the ones remembered - its not a snapshot in time its a continual thing, you have to keep doing it and you become legend - look at the NYCPC final, and Bowen’s performance on Aerosmith and Iron Maiden. He’s not even listed on IPFA but his performances put him in a place were no ranking can make up for, in the minds of people who think he is fantastic - and he is.
 
Neil McRae said:
But if you want to fool yourself into thinking that because the ranking system says your brilliant then must be, then you are an idiot.
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To be fair though, that's a sign of a ranking system that isn't doing the job for whatever reason. If no ranking system could ever represent player skill then why do people bother trying?

And yeah, Brits are just notorious moaners. I really don't like us as a people sometimes haha
 
PBrookfield said:
To be fair though, that's a sign of a ranking system that isn't doing the job for whatever reason. If no ranking system could ever represent player skill then why do people bother trying?

And yeah, Brits are just notorious moaners. I really don't like us as a people sometimes haha
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Ranking systems give us a direction not the destination.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Neil McRae said:
Ranking systems give us a direction not the destination.
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I'm not disagreeing with that. I disagree with saying that they can't be (or shouldn't be?) criticised because they're only useful as a guideline.

But I'm also not sure who you are referring to earlier, as idiots thinking that rankings are be-all, end-all. I think we're arguing different sides of the same coin and that I'm coming across poorly.
 
PBrookfield said:
I'm not disagreeing with that. I disagree with saying that they can't be (or shouldn't be?) criticised because they're only useful as a guideline.

But I'm also not sure who you are referring to earlier, as idiots thinking that rankings are be-all, end-all. I think we're arguing different sides of the same coin and that I'm coming across poorly.
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I was stating it generally; if I was referring to someone I’d put their name - and I’m not arguing with anyone! ;)
 
Neil McRae said:
He’s not even listed on IPFA but his performances put him in a place were no ranking can make up for
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Neil, Bowen is a former world champion and was a regular in the top 10 of the rankings list before he chose to remove himself in protest of the IFPA "1 dollar USA tax" on all USA tournaments.

Replay said:
Then you guys would really be able to test yourselves - imagine head to head against Keith Elwin etc ;)
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Yes, I have played Keith Elwin in the IFPA World Championships, along with many other top names. Frequently. It is a driving force behind wanting to do well enough to qualify for the IFPA World Championships. It is also why I went to Germany last weekend to play many of the best in Europe, Robbie Sutter, Franck Bona, Joannes Ostermeier, Julio Vicario Soriano and Mark Van der Gugten. Many are good friends. As someone else has said, it's not about points or chasing points but wanting to do well and winning the prizes.
 
Moonraker said:
Neil, Bowen is a former world champion and was a regular in the top 10 of the rankings list before he chose to remove himself in protest of the IFPA "1 dollar USA tax" on all USA tournaments.



Yes, I have played Keith Elwin in the IFPA World Championships, along with many other top names. Frequently. It is a driving force behind wanting to do well enough to qualify for the IFPA World Championships. It is also why I went to Germany last weekend to play many of the best in Europe, Robbie Sutter, Franck Bona, Joannes Ostermeier, Julio Vicario Soriano and Mark Van der Gugten. Many are good friends. As someone else has said, it's not about points or chasing points but wanting to do well and winning the prizes.
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Playing in a World Championship would be an awesome experience. Any other sport, you would have to be a professional to enjoy that kind of experience.
Seems like UK is not the place to be for competitive pinball for all above reasons.
It's a shame UK can't have one 'Major' tournament, a tournament that overseas players see as worthy enough to travel to.
Kind of like tennis - 4 majors, one in UK, one in France, one in Australia and one in USA.
 
Replay said:
Playing in a World Championship would be an awesome experience. Any other sport, you would have to be a professional to enjoy that kind of experience.
Seems like UK is not the place to be for competitive pinball for all above reasons.
It's a shame UK can't have one 'Major' tournament, a tournament that overseas players see as worthy enough to travel to.
Kind of like tennis - 4 majors, one in UK, one in France, one in Australia and one in USA.
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What do we need to do to make it happen?
 
I watched top Uk players for the first time this year at flip out and was shocked at how tense and enjoyable it was to see the elite players in the latter stages, before that I only remember thinking I wasn’t going back to Daventry again as all the good pins were in a special area for tournament play and compared to the south coast slam it was crap.
I would now like to watch the better players again, but not sitting down 10 ft away, you gotta get in up close somehow, it also gave me the desire to start playing competitively after flipout,
I haven’t got a clue on how you improve the situation, but probably best not to call the other 95% of Pinball enthusiasts numptys or fodder as they are the ones that supply the machines ;)
 
mission65 said:
I watched top Uk players for the first time this year at flip out and was shocked at how tense and enjoyable it was to see the elite players in the latter stages, before that I only remember thinking I wasn’t going back to Daventry again as all the good pins were in a special area for tournament play and compared to the south coast slam it was crap.
I would now like to watch the better players again, but not sitting down 10 ft away, you gotta get in up close somehow, it also gave me the desire to start playing competitively after flipout,
I haven’t got a clue on how you improve the situation, but probably best not to call the other 95% of Pinball enthusiasts numptys or fodder as they are the ones that supply the machines ;)
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Streaming with commentary is the way to go.
I watched the NY comp on TV in the lounge live.
No clue at all what this involves and how difficult to do.
Also, it means every comp is archived on youtube.
 
mission65 said:
I would now like to watch the better players again, but not sitting down 10 ft away, you gotta get in up close somehow, it also gave me the desire to start playing competitively after flipout,
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At the NLP competition last year we had a TV screen showing live overhead footage from one of the tables during qualifying, and for finals we also had Tim streaming to Twitch, and echoed the feed from that to the TV screens in front of the small crowd. I think that went pretty well, and would be looking to improve on that next time we run a large comp as part of the NLP (hopefully in 2019 all being well)
 
Tilt_Birmingham said:
Waynes first PRO... It would mean that once and for all, there would be some kind of closure as to which region/player is the strongest, as we would all be playing against each other, over an extended period of time - not just who was strongest on the day.
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WTF?
The original idea was a league style format, spread over the year, to take away from who is best on the day. That idea was seen to be a complete non-starter.
However I do enjoy playing against the better players and wanted to put together a format that encompassed that more. The money part of it is just an aside, not even brought up by me.

You are not party to the numerous emails I get complaining about why IFPA rankings aren't taken into account with other tournaments I run, so can't really comment on it.

I've stated on here that I don't believe that it should have WPPR points related to it, BUT I know others wouldn't be interested without it.
Tilt_Birmingham said:
He's done this for his own intentions not for the love of Pinball... Its this sort of scheming I don't like... He's not happy he's ranked lower then others he's openly said as much
Click to expand...
Tilt_Birmingham said:
There are such individuals who any care about the points and wanting to be named the best... They aren't currently happy with the current rankings and have to dig deep to try justify why they are better then someone else...

All this takes away from the hobby and enjoyment of pinball...
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If you don't like it fair enough - just don't get involved, if it takes away from YOUR enjoyment. Other people do like the competitive side of it, why can't they be able to enjoy it THEIR way?
To have a personal dig at me is taking the p!$$, and I won't lower myself to stoop to those levels.

Big Phil said:
What do we need to do to make it happen?
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It seems obvious. Take it off here as it appears to upset people if they aren't interested in a particular format that doesn't appeal to them, so they feel the need to denigrate it and call names.
If something like this is to happen, it'll be by private messages and without any kind of fanfare.
 
Just my tuppence guys, it'd be really great if there were multiple comps at Daventry including a UK Open, Classics and an optional High-stakes one.

I know these things are hard to organise but I am happy to help wherever I can.
 
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I think the general angst in this thread has already put me off competitive pinball in the UK as it is supposed to be fun and inclusive.

No one does this for a living, even players ranked in the top 10 in the world.
 
I love competing. I'm not good enough to win, but I enjoy the thrill of nearly qualifying for the later stages.

I'm not going to pay £100 to get beaten by the top players though. Although I probably paid nearly that much at NLP with multiple entries but that was going to Charity.

I enjoy pinball weekends and chatting sh!t in the bar and I enjoy trying to qualify in comps. they aren't mutually exclusive, and most people who enjoy competing also enjoy the social side. It doesn't need to be a them and us situation.

I like the idea of a handicap system. It works for golf, which has a lot of parallels to pinball. It is also competitive but you are really only playing on your own, with other peoples play not affecting your score.

Handicaps would mean that anyone would have a more equal chance of winning. It means that golf clubs can hold competitions without knowing that one of their top 3 players is definitely going to win because they play off scratch, some playing to their handicap (or slightly better than their handicap on the day) has as much chance of winning. This encourages everyone to join in the competitions and doesn't make it elitist. Ultimately if more people are playing competitively it will generate more people who can play at a higher level, thats got to be a good thing for Pinball in the UK hasnt it?

Either way, I understand the hard work that goes on by everyone behind the scenes to put on pinball events and comps and I appreciate it, without your hard work we wouldnt have the chance to play anywhere near as much pinball. Ultimately I would probably compete in any comp that I can whether I have a chance or not because I enjoy it (even when I play badly), and that enjoyment is what hobbies are all about at the end of the day.
 
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