Champions League of Pinball

[Wayne J]

I've been thinking about whether there would be enough interest to make this possible?

My proposal would be that there would be 6 meetings, exactly the same way the UK regional meetings take place, each region would host 1 meet. Your best 4 scores out of 6 count. With a 'final' (Top 4 players play a PAPA style final over 4 machines) to make it IFPA eligible taking place at Pinfest, or other suitable large event.

The players eligible for entry would be those who qualified for the UK League A Finals the year before.

Pro
It would mean that once and for all, there would be some kind of closure as to which region/player is the strongest, as we would all be playing against each other, over an extended period of time - not just who was strongest on the day.
It would be a good chance to see and play games from other peoples collections/venues that you don't normally see.
It would help you get to know different players from around the country.
It might make qualifying for the A Finals a bit more meaningful?

Con
Obviously, the main one would be travel - time and expense. However, if as a region you carpooled that would cut down a lot of expense.
Realistically it would be more of a strain for the Irish and Scottish as 5 of the meets would require a significant journey time/overnight stay, as opposed to the other regions who could probably do 4 of the meets in a day.


If it was to take place, the meetings could be a bit more of an event. With everyone meeting up the night before for a night out if they were staying over. They could also be timed so that they took place at similar times to other events happening in the area so they trip wasn't purely about pinball.

Let me know your thoughts, and if there is enough interest I will see about making it happen.

Wayne

 

[thelab]

I like the idea Wayne, needs a lot more input and thoughts from others but it's good to see something like this to aim for.
I agree with A Division qualifiers for sure, never made it that high though!

 

[johnwhitfield]

To be honest stuff like this actually makes me far less likely to want to host regional league meets in the future. It just seems too elitist for my tastes. Maybe it's because I'm mediocre as a player but I really think that things should be open to everyone. The A list thing just makes me think it'll be the same old people time and time again. Maybe I'm just being grumpy. If it floats your boat then that's fine but I'd far rather have an occasional knock about, chat to friends and have a beer or two at meets rather than worrying if I'm going to be good enough to join a "premier league"

 

[thelab]

To be honest stuff like this actually makes me far less likely to want to host regional league meets in the future. It just seems too elitist for my tastes. Maybe it's because I'm mediocre as a player but I really think that things should be open to everyone. The A list thing just makes me think it'll be the same old people time and time again. Maybe I'm just being grumpy. If it floats your boat then that's fine but I'd far rather have an occasional knock about, chat to friends and have a beer or two at meets rather than worrying if I'm going to be good enough to join a "premier league"

But this is just a proposal for a different, separate event all together - knock-abouts and beers will always be where the real fun is. All the generous hosts are super appreciated!

 

[johnwhitfield]

But Vin, it's not separate from the league if it's drawn from the A qualifiers of the league (unless I'm reading it wrongly) which is where I disagree with it. (Note this is not a criticism of Wayne in anyway shape or form)

With the way the league currently stands I'm happy to have people round here. However, to be honest there are also downsides. I really don't need whinges about switches and complaints about tilts being too tight. With 40 odd people attending some meets there is also a cost aspect to consider (but that's my decision to feed people etc).

I don't really mind any of this though as it also means I then get to hang out and pay other people's collections.

What I don't want to become is the bottom of the triangle, excluded from further events and therefore not being able to play other peoples games. The finals are one thing but to have a further exclusive level above that is not something I personally want to support.

I'm only speaking for myself but if you look at the hosts for this years SE league I suspect only 1 would make the elite A list. That to me doesn't sit well. The system currently does exist on the good will of people and I've met some very generous people through pinball.

Disclaimer: You also have to factor in that I'm currently two weeks into exam season at work and currently fasting. Both of which probably are colouring my opinion.

 

[thelab]

Blimey! Fasting too? That'd push you over the edge!

I see where you are coming from, but I honestly thought this was going to be separate to the league (even though the qualifiers will come from previous A finishes). I'm sure the idea wasn't meant to detract from the current arrangements, just an extra thing on top. And I hope that the A/B division finals will still get held annually any way, they are a blast.

P.S. I've never made the A-list anyway

Hang in there and will see you soon!

Vin

 

[RudeDogg1]

Blimey! Fasting too? That'd push you over the edge!

I see where you are coming from, but I honestly thought this was going to be separate to the league (even though the qualifiers will come from previous A finishes). I'm sure the idea wasn't meant to detract from the current arrangements, just an extra thing on top. And I hope that the A/B division finals will still get held annually any way, they are a blast.

P.S. I've never made the A-list anyway

Hang in there and will see you soon!

Vin

Had to re read that I thought you said fisting lol oooer

 

[thelab]

Had to re read that I thought you said fisting lol oooer

Steady..!

 

[johnwhitfield]

Now fisting would probably get me sacked. Would be a bit of a story to tell though

Got dragged into fasting as all my students are. One poor girl has 3 three hour back to back exams on what could potentially be the last day before Eid so won’t have slept or eaten properly for a month. Can’t see those exams going well....

 

[thelab]

fisting is probably a lot easier too

 

[johnwhitfield]

Sorry Wayne. Probably the worst thread derail on the forum.

Back to your super league ......

 

[Sven Normansson]

Don't we pretty much already have this with the UKCS & finals?

 

[robotgreg]

Here's my thoughts FWIW, on the champions league not fisting!

Great idea and something I tried to emulate for the league finals but didn't go down very well in some quarters. Not sure if the distance will kill it but if you don't try you'll never know but do reckon you will lose a reasonable % from some meets as a result.

Therefore I think restricting eligibility to A League finalists is too much and at best you'll end with 10-15 at each meet. Secondly leagues are already used for qualification for the league finals so you'd be using the same qualification for two separate events which seems wrong especially when both finals are meant to be "elite".

I'd suggest widening the net to include top 20 per IFPA and top 20 per UKCS. That way you ensure you're not missing any of the best players as you say that's what you're trying to achieve - a reckoning of the UK's very best. And seeing as the same names will be on most if not all 3 lists, you're not ending up with 64 but more like 30-35 (without having tried to work it out in detail). Seems a much more reasonable number to find UK elite players over format you suggest also bearing in mind you'll have a reasonable drop out rate at some meets with a few maybe not taking part at all.

As far as finals format is concerned top 4 seems brutal esp after the effort to travel so far for all! One idea would be top 16 but seeded so 9-16 play in 2 groups of 4 over 3 games, top 2 going through from each group (like PAPA knockouts IIRC) and then repeat with 5-8 joining these 4 qualifiers from 1st round and then repeat again with 4 from this round joining 1-4.

 

[Wayne J]

To be honest stuff like this actually makes me far less likely to want to host regional league meets in the future. It just seems too elitist for my tastes. Maybe it's because I'm mediocre as a player but I really think that things should be open to everyone. The A list thing just makes me think it'll be the same old people time and time again. Maybe I'm just being grumpy. If it floats your boat then that's fine but I'd far rather have an occasional knock about, chat to friends and have a beer or two at meets rather than worrying if I'm going to be good enough to join a "premier league"

I understand what you are saying John, the over competitiveness is the major complaint I hear from many hosts and the main reason why there were no meetings in the SouthWest this year.
I see no reason why there has to be such aggression while competing, but there you go. There is no reason why a social gathering and competitive play should be mutually exclusive. In fact I would hope that with the more competitive players from around the UK playing together more regularly it may help garner some respect between players,especially if they meet up the evening prior.

A & B Finals will continue whatever happens, in fact, this years trophies arrived today.

I still believe that the league format is the best way of determining the best player over the year. Not having as much focus/weight on a finals day. I would be glad to compete without a final, but know that others wouldn't consider it without the draw of WPPR points!

The issue really boils down to three points.

1.Is there any interest in an elite league style comp?

2.How many players take part and where are the meetings held?

3.How are the players picked? (it certainly won't be based on IFPA rankings)

 

[Moonraker]

I don't think there will be enough interest, it's not like there isn't enough already for the top players. Many couldn't be bothered to show up at last years UK open as it was "down south" so how would this improve anything...???

 

[roadshow16]

Go on then, I'll put my balls on the block.

By sight test. This is the rank order of the best players in the UK. On any given day any of these could beat anyone else, but taking in consistency and knowledge of how people respond in a competitive environment, this is the ranking.

Craig Pullen @roadshow16
Andy Foster @PUP
Martin Ayub
Will Dutton
Nick Marshall @mufcmufc
Martyn Raison
Rich Mallet @RuyLopez
Matt Vince @Matt Vince
Wayne Johns @Wayne J
Greg Mott @robotgreg
Peter Blakemore @Moonraker
David Mainwaring @alchy
David Dutton @DAD
Phil Dixon @Sven Normansson
Stan Simpson @bartron
****

The list could be extended, there are a number of other players who could make it for sure. But I'll stick with these.

Obviously I'm at the top, do I actually think I'm the best? Yes. Have I proven it? No.

£100 says I'm the best. We'll choose a mutually agreeable venue, stick your £100 in the pot, we'll have a little round robin, best of 7, head to head, picking machines, pure competition. Get Neil or Tim to stream it, make an event of it. @Neil McRae @strobey fancy this?

****Absolutely not exclusive in anyway, I'll take £100 from anyone, put your money where your mouth is!

(P.S. Please take this with a pinch of salt, a few people know I have fancied doing something like this for a while!)

(N.B. I'm struggling with exam season too!!)

 

[johnwhitfield]

For what it’s worth I think the list is pretty much the people I’d expect. Possibly some difference with the rankings

I also would consider a lot of them friends but if I’m honest I couldn’t imagine anything more boring to watch than the top players having a dick waving contest. I’d far rather see someone like Vin or Kate compete so I could root for an underdog.

Isn’t it really just another run off of the league finals?

Kind of reminds me of school sports day where 50 kids are ultra competitive and never understand why the other 1000 don’t give a hoot


But hey if it floats your boat who am I to stand in your way

 

[AlanJ]

Just a thought here guys - how about a competition open to all, but with a handicap system like golf? This would give a more equal chance for everyone. It takes time to work out a handicap system, and then hone it, but this could be worthwhile and create a lot of excitement.

 

[Wizcat]

I personally would love to see the best in the UK face off, but I think as Peter said, it seems very optimistic that people would travel so far around the country on a semi-regular basis.

So I'm in favour of what Craig suggested instead. A single tournament with stakes that are high enough to limit entries to those that really feel qualified (or have enough spare change to throw away). Multiple rounds of match-play, get it streamed on tinternet and make it a legitimate high profile annual tournament.

£100 entry seems a decent price for that. That would also allow the regional leagues put on satellite events at £5 entry where the winner is awarded a £100 ticket to the main event.

 

[strobey]

Elite pinball or dick waving - I'll stream it.

Seriously though, I'd record it too and make a edited show to highlight the UK is very much 'on the map' when it comes to top-drawer pinball players.

Why not see it as a demonstration of UK talent, not bragging between players, but group effort to the world.

Think British team at the Olympics: everyone's got each other's backs, but each player fighting for that win.

Tim

 

[Replay]

If doing this format, needs to be open to all, and to really see who can cope with pressure, winner takes it all.

Everyone else gets nothing.

 

[Sven Normansson]

I've pretty much retired from competitions. WPPR has killed it stone dead.


Also struggling with Final year hand in. 2nd year Injection molding project and 1st year marking.

 

[DRD]

I like your ambition Wayne, but I fear that apathy and logistics will remain major hurdles to overcome. And I doubt that there are enough regular players in the UK to stratify them in this way (amateur Sunday league players who want to keep it local versus professional Premiership players who want to take things further and farther).

Pinball produces enormous scoring volatility. It is not fair or predictable like tennis or athletics. In order to determine the best players you need the results of many competitions (like the dreaded pinball points system tries to achieve, or the world rankings for tennis).

The reality is that on any given day, any of those top 16 players could win an event, especially if it includes some 70s or 80s machines. So you will never know who the best UK player is.

 

[robotgreg]

@roadshow16 just curious is the order of your list just your opinion or anything more scientific?

Replay makes good point that ought to be open (certainly if you want WPPR) or based on some prequalifying criteria

 

[Wayne J]

Many couldn't be bothered to show up at last years UK open as it was "down south"

But some of the same people will travel halfway across Europe chasing WPPR pts - go figure

 

[Sven Normansson]

Because they have the time or money (or both) When I did the same I was 103 in the rankings and qualified at every event. I can't take time off during term time now so that's not possible anymore and that kills the ranking. This is not a professional sport, we all have jobs and commitments.

 

[strobey]

Because they have the time or money (or both) ... I can't take time off during term time now so that's not possible anymore and that kills the ranking. This is not a professional sport, we all have jobs and commitments.

But there's the thing - lets stop thinking of it as a competition between ourselves (who can and who can't commit their time) and starting thinking of it as a representation of the best UK players. Those with fewer commitments are ideal candidates to represent the UK "elite".

That word "elite" might send shivers down your spine, but it needn't - it's just pinball, and this is just for fun. Zero exclusion, simply using those players who are decent and have the time. They will represent us, the Brits. Everyone else should be cheering them on, watching from the sidelines.

After a few years, the comp gets some serious notice and world players are invited to participate.

Craig - I think the inclusion of cash is genius, it's like the Aussie Millions poker comp - pool all of the buyins, add some sponsorship, suddenly it's at 5k or dare I say 10k and **** me will people travel then...

Tim

 

[Wayne J]

@roadshow16 just curious is the order of your list just your opinion or anything more scientific?

I think the order is close to what I'd have put it as well based on 'feel' - but with me above Craig
Seriously, I did some analysis on the head to head records of the top 10 UK players last year, and it wasn't so different.

Notice that IFPA ranking has no correlation whatsoever

This is the order that Josh Sharpe produced for the year 2017, worked out the same way that State finalists are chosen in the US

1 Andrew Foster
2 Wayne Johns
3 Martin Ayub
4 Matt Vince
5 Greg Mott
6 Craig Pullen
7 David Dutton
8 William Dutton
9 Peter Blakemore
10 Rich Mallett
11 David Mainwaring
12 Chris Poyntz
13 Tim Porter
14 Tom Fletcher
15 John Whitfield
16 Timothy Raison
17 Paul Owen
18 Vin Jauhal
19 David Dodds
20 Mike Kindler

how about a competition open to all, but with a handicap system like golf? This would give a more equal chance for everyone

I have to be honest - I hate this idea. Why punish the 'best' players? If you want 'a more equal chance for everyone' why not just have a lottery?

£100 entry seems a decent price for that

It's probably too steep for the vast majority of people. As despite people quoting IFPA ranking, or why they think they're so good, when it comes to it they won't put their money where their mouth is.
At the league finals at SWL last year, we tried to set something like this up, but no one was really interested. The highest stakes game/comp was a £5 entry single game with the winner getting £15 and 2nd place getting £5. Even that only ran for 3 or 4 games before interest waned.

I'm seeing that there's little to no chance of getting a Champions League off the ground, but maybe there is a chance for a one-off streamed event to be held, maybe at Pinfest on the Saturday evening?

 

[roadshow16]

@roadshow16 just curious is the order of your list just your opinion or anything more scientific?

Replay makes good point that ought to be open (certainly if you want WPPR) or based on some prequalifying criteria

Absolutely no science involved. As I said, by sight, just my very biased opinion. Perhaps the SW guys are a little low because I have played them all much more than the others. Perhaps not. Either way it was meant to be provocative. Don't agree, stick your cash in the hat.

ABSOLUTELY!!! OPEN TO EVERYONE!!! You pays your money you takes your chance.

 

[carl lawrence]

I Know why not make it like the premier league the top 3 or 4 of each league ,fourm a super league of there own
And each year some move up and down etc etc !