Talking of which, how's the forum Naughty List - Official Score Board shaping up? Or it like Fight Club? Mention it and you go straight to the top? (Just so I know....)
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The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread
- Thread starter VeeMonroe
- Start date
Okay. My FT arrived with incandescent bulbs, a standard translite, and a stock orange DMD.
Do you think that leaving incandescent bulbs (which use loads of electricity, don't last long and can warp plastics/playfield) and a drab orange DMD made my FT MORE valuable than it is now it has a colorDMD and power-saving LEDs? Because, as you point out, a colour screen and LEDs are not original.
Yes, let's have a look at the Naughty League Table
It's actually looking fairly bare as people have been resonably behaved... only one person, and then wanted me to remove their account, so i did.Yes, let's have a look at the Naughty League Table
Looking forward to watching this thread and making it look a lot healthier though....
Im just hoping I get the one on my wanted list, price is no object
Give me some points please
Give me some points please
Honestly, I’d put bulbs back in and would factor that in to what I’d pay.
ColorDMDs have a value but I still love the glow of the old DMDs just the same.
If it had a powder coat, I’d end probably end up taking it off at some point.
There are plenty of modded pins I see that I just pass on as they are not to my taste and I’d be constantly thinking about repairing them back to how they should be.
Honestly? If I bought it, I'd swap the translite back to stock and put incandescents back in it, they look nicer
The colour DMD - I'd probably keep it in the machine, but I wouldn't pay more because of it, they're cool and all but they're not *worth* anything to me over a standard orange one.
However they're all reversable mods, so I wouldn't say it's worth less, just not more.
Where it would be worth less to me would be if the wiring had been tampered with to power a mod, or the playfield or plastics drilled
Wow. I'm finding some of these responses fascinating...
I have no nostalgia about old pins. I just like how the B/W era pins and the older 'classics' play. So, I'm more than happy to powder coat, add speaker lights, new sound boards, LEDs (inc. strobing flashers), huge LCD screens, flashing pop bumpers and star posts, upgrades to the existing toys, modern gloss decals, custom artwork, Arduinos with extra code (e.g. wizard modes), and so on.
We've got a SEN specialist who works with my older son and, when I ripped out the incandescents and added the new translite to our FT, she said how amazingly modern it now looked. And, yep, I took it as a compliment. Because, if I can make my Flash Gordon or Fish Tales look like a NIB Stern (but still play like an older pin), why wouldn't I? And, moreover, why would I pay the same for outdated tech?
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No need for shock at different opinions, just realise some people see things differently. There are plenty like you who want to personalise and add stuff to games, that’s fine, but you asked who wouldn’t want alt translites, powder coating etc.Wow. I'm finding some of these responses fascinating...
I have no nostalgia about old pins. I just like how the B/W era pins and the older 'classics' play. So, I'm more than happy to powder coat, add speaker lights, new sound boards, LEDs (inc. strobing flashers), huge LCD screens, flashing pop bumpers and star posts, upgrades to the existing toys, modern gloss decals, custom artwork, Arduinos with extra code (e.g. wizard modes), and so on.
We've got a SEN specialist who works with my older son and, when I ripped out the incandescents and added the new translite to our FT, she said how amazingly modern it now looked. And, yep, I took it as a compliment. Because, if I can make my Flash Gordon or Fish Tales look like a NIB Stern (but still play like an older pin), why wouldn't I? And, moreover, why would I pay the same for outdated tech?
I just like games the way they were when I played them bitd.
Most collecting hobbyists like things to be original and restored, someone might want to dump a massive spoiler on the back of their 1.0l Fiesta, but it doesn’t increase its value to me, it just means I don’t want to buy it anymore.
I also value the art packages in pinball and clearly they were designed for the light frequency of bulbs not LEDs. There are modern solutions to recreate bulb type effects but to me using bulbs is more authentic.
You do what you like to your games, they are yours, but don’t be surprised if people want things the way they were meant to be played and enjoyed by the designer.
Wow. I'm finding some of these responses fascinating...
I have no nostalgia about old pins. I just like how the B/W era pins and the older 'classics' play. So, I'm more than happy to powder coat, add speaker lights, new sound boards, LEDs (inc. strobing flashers), huge LCD screens, flashing pop bumpers and star posts, upgrades to the existing toys, modern gloss decals, custom artwork, Arduinos with extra code (e.g. wizard modes), and so on.
We've got a SEN specialist who works with my older son and, when I ripped out the incandescents and added the new translite to our FT, she said how amazingly modern it now looked. And, yep, I took it as a compliment. Because, if I can make my Flash Gordon or Fish Tales look like a NIB Stern (but still play like an older pin), why wouldn't I? And, moreover, why would I pay the same for outdated tech?
I don't understand the relevance of the SEN specialist?
Don't know why powder coating makes a game modern. To me it's akin to the old pimping your car
that divides people.I like LEDs, they enhance. (But they need Afterglow or ledocd to maintain the effects of the original incandescents). Strobing GI is gross.
Enhancing whats already there is what I like. But some mods don't enhance.
Personal opinion
I think most of my games look good with just LEDs, a colour display, invisiglass and mirror blades.
Never had the urge to powder coat side rails
I think that’s the difference. I‘ve come into pinball through tabletop dexterity games - they’re gaming equipment, not stamps, and I like giving them a bit of a graphic spin.
Random detail, sorry.
I agree. I personally think powder coating enhances what’s already there, but it is divisive if you choose a colour that others don’t feel works.Enhancing whats already there is what I like. But some mods don't enhance.
Personal opinion
I have seen some truly appalling mods. But they’re mostly on licensed pins where someone has stuck on ALL THE LICENSED FIGURES and it obscures the view of the ball.
Really?Wow. I'm finding some of these responses fascinating...
...and there's your reason.
I always rip out all the mods, the color dmds and LEDs. Really not a fan.
The electricity use is a nonsense argument unless you have them on 8 hours a day.
Incandescents also apparently warp plastics. Haven’t seen that myself, but I’ve definitely heard it.
All that said, the real point here is that opinions vary. Some folks, like me, love blinging and ‘modernising’ pins. Other people want to rip out their ‘improvements’ out of a sense of nostalgia. All kinds of folks make a world and it’s thus helpful if people don’t use sales/trade threads to express their opinion on how much a pin *should* be worth based on whether they value particular mods - or mods, in general.
If you don’t like green powder coating… move on.
I agree along with leds and associated ocd or afterglow.
Apart from them I don’t think they add value and I certainly wouldn’t pay more for one with mods.
The only difference for me would be two pins valued the same and same condition one with mods one without I’d go with the one with mods.
I think there are still a few hardcore incandescent lovers here
Very true. I like playing pinball and enjoy watching others use the machines I've sorted out even though they think I'm an idiot for having a room full of pins. The weird thing is I enjoy playing my machines more when they have restored cabs, chrome, perfect plastics etc even though deep down I know that means nothing to most people. A rational person would just buy new in box but the next project is too much to resist which proves your point.
I don't get involved in too many price discussions but people must be getting used to the current values as the forum is a lot more civilised than when I joined. The highlight of my Saturday night used to be watching the arguments unfold after a few beers.
I like both, I have 4 pins with all incandescents. Some pins you just have to leave them in and they are plenty bright enough in my room with the excellent pin friendly lightingI think there are still a few hardcore incandescent lovers here
It's an interesting question for me it depends on what it is. Does it enhance the experience pinsound definitely does on some machines, LOTR, STTNG, T2 improves it, Adams family doesn't.
Colour DMD does on some machines others not.
Mods can do, Tron springs to mind and those mods are now impossible to get so would increase the value to a person who liked them, to one who doesn't not a bit.
Some mods are terrible but it is a matter of taste.
Having seen stumbler work in the flesh at pinball rebublic the large format hd screen are a mod but do enhance the experience.
I suppose it really boils down to can you get them, if yes wouldn't increase the value much, if not yes if you as the buyer really wants it
. If it was a Tron fully loaded with the tasteful mods I would expect to pay more than a bare bones Tron.
I suppose the bottom line really is how much more is it worth. If it cost £1,500 to buy all the bling then it would be worth to me a premium of £600 to skip the hassle of sourcing and fitting, unless they are impossible to get and I had to have the shiny topper thing ,"lol"
Sorry long post - For prices (& considering value) I guess you kinda gotta work backwards from NIB price and +/- for the condition/extras. Here’s a bunch of titles to help compare what you think is good value. There has (and probably always will be) people chancing their arm and asking loads on eBay/Facebook etc. Machines which seem to sit there for ages or shill bidding (not unheard of). There’ll also be a few people who paid big bucks for old games through retailers and are then struggling to move it on for the same price years later there are also people who bought at a reasonable price on the forum and look to sell back at a reasonable price (hopefully us) so to try and avoid tears I’ve made up some tiers:
Ethereal tier: 10k+
Magic girl/jjp potc/big lebowski/Big Bang bar - small run fully featured 10k+ Or whatever they’re asking for these unicorns (unique, low runs, we’re not worthy).
God tier: 10k
Brand New Stern premium/LE or new JJP£10k pretty fancy pants.
Or a gold Addams family which does the housework.
Top tier: 7-8k ish
New stern pro = Godzilla pro £7600 (waiting list)
Also some fully top-to-bottom top tier restored classic 90’s games in here, can only really think of Circus Voltaire - as in lower runs/rarer. If I was spending this on a 20-30year old machine, I’d expect it to look box-fresh restored - a rare gem. Like new Indiana Jones minty/that champion boxing one. Totan - that sorta thing. show piece stuff.
Very Nice tier: 6k ish
Second hand stern pro from the last few years with an LCD display (IMDN/Deadpool/JP2/turtles/say.. GOTG) should be relatively low plays, HUO helps. would expect to be trouble free still for years. Also slighter older stern premiums (more toys but a bit older - met premium, maybe a huo xMen premium..)
Probably some top tier top rated late 90’s around here, if people were to let go of them and they were good condition.. though mind they could well be starting to show their age (MB/MM/CC/AFM).
Nice tier: 5k ish
Sterns with DMDs which are up to/around 10years old.. Star Trek pro/twd/Metallica pro/maybe a less popular LCD Stern pro like Aerosmith (was 4kish not long ago) maybe older premium sterns, AC/DC premium say.
Probably got some desirable b/w 90’s games poking around here - TOM I’m thinking... Maybe original AFM unrestored. A really nice spiderman or Simpson’s pinball party? Scared stiff. Tommy.
“Oh cool a pinball” tier - 4k ish.
10+ year old sterns which weren’t massive popular but still fairly modern. Potc/Btdk/family guy maybe/shrek, lumped in with b/w which people like, but not top rated; I guess wh20/a very very nice CFTBL, nice STTNG, nice Indy 500.
“Not so popular stern DMD’s & lower tier B/W DMD” -3k ish
So thinking sterns which were around 2k a few years ago & B/W which were the same… probably bbh/wpt/terminator 3/monopoly or Fish tales/the shadow/JM/HS2/extreme sports/Judge Dredd/BSD/perhaps rfm or in other manufactures there’s LAH, Frankenstein (3.2 recently) or stargate.. or a baywatch. Could also be looking at some solid states which have had alot of love and look/play solid having had restoration.
‘Working pin, not a lot of support’ tier- 2kish
A working early 80’s single ball play stern solid state now, unlikely many dmd games unless they are Gillian's island or a mouldy JD. So starting to look at playable DE/Gottlieb/more solid states. Or those older less popular Williams alpha numerical - Jokers/Fire. The odd older Bally, may need some work, like a .. truck stop, br, roller games, eatpm, class of 1812/ LW3 Games which were a grand to £1500 a few years and players condition, (don’t get a lot of or reproduction parts listed on sites). - You can search the for sale threads and see what’s sold by title - for what/when.
‘It’ll be a beaut!’ Tier 1-1.5k -
Worn Bally 70’s solid state classics in need of some love. Machines which you can get spare parts for. And deserve the attention. (Bally Star Trek on here - usually end up ina Beautiful restoration blog post) or something like that riverboats gambler (I found it surprisingly fun at Pinfest)
It’s a project, do you know where I could get parts? - 1k ish -
ratty not so popular titles which may be harder to get the parts for (think like the police force which just sold on ebay)
there are also people who bought at a reasonable price on the forum and look to sell back at a reasonable price (hopefully us) so to try and avoid tears I’ve made up some tiers:Ethereal tier: 10k+
Magic girl/jjp potc/big lebowski/Big Bang bar - small run fully featured 10k+ Or whatever they’re asking for these unicorns (unique, low runs, we’re not worthy).
God tier: 10k
Brand New Stern premium/LE or new JJP£10k pretty fancy pants.
Or a gold Addams family which does the housework.
Top tier: 7-8k ish
New stern pro = Godzilla pro £7600 (waiting list)
Also some fully top-to-bottom top tier restored classic 90’s games in here, can only really think of Circus Voltaire - as in lower runs/rarer. If I was spending this on a 20-30year old machine, I’d expect it to look box-fresh restored - a rare gem. Like new Indiana Jones minty/that champion boxing one. Totan - that sorta thing. show piece stuff.
Very Nice tier: 6k ish
Second hand stern pro from the last few years with an LCD display (IMDN/Deadpool/JP2/turtles/say.. GOTG) should be relatively low plays, HUO helps. would expect to be trouble free still for years. Also slighter older stern premiums (more toys but a bit older - met premium, maybe a huo xMen premium..)
Probably some top tier top rated late 90’s around here, if people were to let go of them and they were good condition.. though mind they could well be starting to show their age (MB/MM/CC/AFM).
Nice tier: 5k ish
Sterns with DMDs which are up to/around 10years old.. Star Trek pro/twd/Metallica pro/maybe a less popular LCD Stern pro like Aerosmith (was 4kish not long ago) maybe older premium sterns, AC/DC premium say.
Probably got some desirable b/w 90’s games poking around here - TOM I’m thinking... Maybe original AFM unrestored. A really nice spiderman or Simpson’s pinball party? Scared stiff. Tommy.
“Oh cool a pinball” tier - 4k ish.
10+ year old sterns which weren’t massive popular but still fairly modern. Potc/Btdk/family guy maybe/shrek, lumped in with b/w which people like, but not top rated; I guess wh20/a very very nice CFTBL, nice STTNG, nice Indy 500.
“Not so popular stern DMD’s & lower tier B/W DMD” -3k ish
So thinking sterns which were around 2k a few years ago & B/W which were the same… probably bbh/wpt/terminator 3/monopoly or Fish tales/the shadow/JM/HS2/extreme sports/Judge Dredd/BSD/perhaps rfm or in other manufactures there’s LAH, Frankenstein (3.2 recently) or stargate.. or a baywatch. Could also be looking at some solid states which have had alot of love and look/play solid having had restoration.
‘Working pin, not a lot of support’ tier- 2kish
A working early 80’s single ball play stern solid state now, unlikely many dmd games unless they are Gillian's island or a mouldy JD. So starting to look at playable DE/Gottlieb/more solid states. Or those older less popular Williams alpha numerical - Jokers/Fire. The odd older Bally, may need some work, like a .. truck stop, br, roller games, eatpm, class of 1812/ LW3 Games which were a grand to £1500 a few years and players condition, (don’t get a lot of or reproduction parts listed on sites). - You can search the for sale threads and see what’s sold by title - for what/when.
‘It’ll be a beaut!’ Tier 1-1.5k -
Worn Bally 70’s solid state classics in need of some love. Machines which you can get spare parts for. And deserve the attention. (Bally Star Trek on here - usually end up ina Beautiful restoration blog post) or something like that riverboats gambler (I found it surprisingly fun at Pinfest)
It’s a project, do you know where I could get parts? - 1k ish -
ratty not so popular titles which may be harder to get the parts for (think like the police force which just sold on ebay)
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Very good and most sensible post I've seen for a while. Can't really argue with any of that. It just needs
"Meh, I fancied it" - £250 - £700
EM just fancied the look of, bulks out a cheapo line-up may light up, may well not. Late 60's Bally/Williams rotten and picked over projects. 70's Zaccarias. (The Combat that had a £500 BIN off eBay recently)
"She'll kill me, don't tell her I bought this" - £0 - £250
Early SS that really you should leave where you found it. A project EM bought off here, crappy titles no-one wants. Wiring looks like its one good nudge away from a bonfire. Home to mice.
"Meh, I fancied it" - £250 - £700
EM just fancied the look of, bulks out a cheapo line-up may light up, may well not. Late 60's Bally/Williams rotten and picked over projects. 70's Zaccarias. (The Combat that had a £500 BIN off eBay recently)
"She'll kill me, don't tell her I bought this" - £0 - £250
Early SS that really you should leave where you found it. A project EM bought off here, crappy titles no-one wants. Wiring looks like its one good nudge away from a bonfire. Home to mice.
... on reflection... yeah, pinball prices suck.
LEDs. Incandescents are a pretty weak bulb. I’m sure B/W stuck in as many incandescent bulbs they thought they could get away with. Except they didn’t with short life spans, warped plastics, faded translites, burnt connectors and 5V resets.
Powdercoat. Personal taste. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Have a mate who says revert to stock (chrome or black) and then has xmen magneto, ac/dc premium and Spider-Man all in the same row in red.
Mods. If mod don’t add value, why do the stern LE’s cost more than the premiums. JJP, CGC and Spooky sell more CE, LE , royal editions than standard. Often at a price differential more than the cost of the mods themselves. Suggests people will pay more for a game with extras.
Powdercoat. Personal taste. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn’t. Have a mate who says revert to stock (chrome or black) and then has xmen magneto, ac/dc premium and Spider-Man all in the same row in red.
Mods. If mod don’t add value, why do the stern LE’s cost more than the premiums. JJP, CGC and Spooky sell more CE, LE , royal editions than standard. Often at a price differential more than the cost of the mods themselves. Suggests people will pay more for a game with extras.
SOME people will pay more for a game with extras. Personally if it is just bling I wouldn't .
On LEs I expect some would see them as a better investment as they expect them to hold better value than a pro or buy them for bragging rights or have enough cash not to worry about an extra couple of grand or buy into the expensive is best lifestyle or don't have anything else better to spend their cash on. But frankly much of the extras are really just bling. Jewellery for pinball.
