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Deleted member 2463
apparently on the up from 2017, let the joy begin!
Neil.
Neil.
Pinball info
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OP
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Deleted member 2463
only if they are any good 
Bully for your being able to buy at any price.
The majority on here don't have that luxury so no need to rub it in there face.
The majority on here don't have that luxury so no need to rub it in there face.
It's not just a case of being able to afford them, it's having any desire to buy something so fantastically over-priced. Most people have other interests besides pinball.
Besides, I think more people are waking up to the fact that with them taking the **** re: pricing, they are most assuredly going to continue taking the **** re: quality of materials and manufacture, features, QC and code. It's part of the same cycle. A short term race for the highest margins possible, before selling the company or the market crashes - which ever comes first.
Besides, I think more people are waking up to the fact that with them taking the **** re: pricing, they are most assuredly going to continue taking the **** re: quality of materials and manufacture, features, QC and code. It's part of the same cycle. A short term race for the highest margins possible, before selling the company or the market crashes - which ever comes first.
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Deleted member 2463
Bully for your being able to buy at any price.
The majority on here don't have that luxury so no need to rub it in there face.
You should give captain bozo above a slap with a kipper then for mentioning it!
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Deleted member 2463
Indeed but stern have made some great games recently - are they really that overpriced though - take the cost of a Williams machine and add for inflation, currency and the increased complexity of the games and in my view of Williams still existed they's be charging roughly the same as stern...
Any chance of sharing the info on price rises?
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Deleted member 2463
an email sent to US distributors, nobody has posted it yet but long thread on inside.
mind you when donald trump gets going then prices are headed for the moon!
mind you when donald trump gets going then prices are headed for the moon!
Bully for your being able to buy at any price.
The majority on here don't have that luxury so no need to rub it in there face.
Well said darren Neil you seem a good guy but really need to take a reality check sadly most people who are on here can't afford to fly to New York first class at £7000 and will never be able to own a maclaren p1 like you so when you coment like that it only gets people's back up a price of a new pinball is a bloody good new car to a lot
Stern and other companies love mugs like you who have too much money and would pay 10k for something worth £500
They're way, way above inflation. Also, new Stern games are pretty uncomplicated mechanically for the most part, there are way fewer hours in assembly (much less wiring and soldering), the PCB sets are immeasurably cheaper than 80s and 90s stuff, and the ultra-cheap decals and cabinets ... plus pf wood is of a far lower grade. LCDs / Stern DMDs are also far cheaper than Plasma DMDs ever were. They've taken a hatchet to pretty much everything, and the backlog of games needing code grows ever larger.
For me the cost of a machine is now at an insane level. There is no chance of a game ever making its cash back on site and that was the only reason they used to be made.
There is no way a Stern is more complex than some of the 90s WMS games. Compare STTNG to KISS. Star Trek has way more going on. Now code maybe better now and games are deeper but that's not the same as the game being more complex.
I still remember thinking who would ever spend 3k on a NIB Spider-Man. Little did I know
There is no way a Stern is more complex than some of the 90s WMS games. Compare STTNG to KISS. Star Trek has way more going on. Now code maybe better now and games are deeper but that's not the same as the game being more complex.
I still remember thinking who would ever spend 3k on a NIB Spider-Man. Little did I know
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Deleted member 2463
chris, suggest you get your facts right before you make a twat of yourself again like the last thread! I never said a freaking thing so you can **** off!
nice to know I'm topic of conversation though!
Neil.
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Deleted member 2463
what rate do you use for inflation over 20 years?
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Deleted member 2463
For me the cost of a machine is now at an insane level. There is no chance of a game ever making its cash back on site and that was the only reason they used to be made.
There is no way a Stern is more complex than some of the 90s WMS games. Compare STTNG to KISS. Star Trek has way more going on. Now code maybe better now and games are deeper but that's not the same as the game being more complex.
I still remember thinking who would ever spend 3k on a NIB Spider-Man. Little did I know
John, you make a good point on the complexity level on that comparison - i was thinking more code.
If i think about MM, MB, TOM and a few others they don't seem that much more complex but ST:TNG is for sure and probably TW and TAF
How much was say a brand new TAF or STTNG in the 90's out of interest, does anyone remember?
I'm not sure what I think the price of a new game 'should' be as it's hard to say as a lot of the cost of the game will be the development costs? They'll be a number of units Stern need to sell to break even to cover development costs.
I'm not sure what I think the price of a new game 'should' be as it's hard to say as a lot of the cost of the game will be the development costs? They'll be a number of units Stern need to sell to break even to cover development costs.
People did a bunch of calculations on Pinside last year and this, using compound US inflation. That was before the latest price hikes. It wasn't close ... IIRC, using very generous (to Stern) numbers, Stern Pros were nearly 50% more expensive than WMS machines, adjusted for inflation. That's for a generally much cheaper, feature stripped machine.
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Deleted member 2463
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That statement is incorrect.
When taf came out at I think £2100 + VAT (ish) they were 25p a game (£1 for 4 cred) now they are 4750 + VAT (trade) and 66p a game (£2 for 3 cred)
The residual value of the game is way more than they used to be too...
Phil
hmm, pinside and being able to count...
No, but I'm sure search works. I just did a beer mat calculation and it checks out, anyway. I used 3% p.a. inflation rather than the average of ~2.3% for the last 20 years in the US, with a compounding frequency of 4 (once per quarter), and assuming a WMS machine was ~$2000 (they were often much less given bulk purchases) and a Stern Pro at $5000, the Stern Pro was ~50% more expensive.
For some reason the forum is displaying the 'roughly' squiggle as hyphens or negative symbols.
According to bank of England's inflation calculator, £2520 in 1992 would be £4704 in 2015
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Deleted member 2463
so 2100 would be £4,261 so not massively away
Neil.
Neil.
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Deleted member 2463
so they must have been counting on 8 fingers then
compound UK inflation is just under 100% since 1992.Neil.
Indeed, and that's for a fully featured machine with loads of toys, proper rails, proper lockdown bar, plywood cab, metal apron. Games like TAF would equate to a Stern LE, not a pro, so when you compare £4700 to circa £9000 (and rising), you can see that Sterns profit margins are getting bigger.
That's before we get onto the comparison of the electornics. The Stern Spike system costs a fraction to manufacture compared to a Williams WPC boardset and wiring loom. I would be suprised if it cost 20% as much, so they really are squeezing out every penny of profit
Run out of popcorn... just off to the shop. Back in a bit
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
OP
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Deleted member 2463
yeah but WMS would take advantage of the same low cost manufacturing of electronics. stern is a little more pricey and perhaps with more competition that wouldn't be the case.
Back when TAF came out beer was about £1.30-£1.50 a pint. Now it's £6 (there's a reason not to drink in London). Can I use that as the rate of inflation?
Out of interest what's happened to the price of a fruit machine over the same time period? Also do they still take the same kind of money they used to or have phones etc cut into the more casual players?
). Can I use that as the rate of inflation?Out of interest what's happened to the price of a fruit machine over the same time period? Also do they still take the same kind of money they used to or have phones etc cut into the more casual players?
£6 a pint! Bloody hell! Still £2.50 here!
