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Theme or game play?
- Thread starter Cmor111
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It's one of the best pinball machines ever made IMO, definitely one of the best single ball games
Can be brutally difficult but is very addictive. Gameplay is right up there and I think the theme is pretty cool as well.You are correct. 1981 was a bit early for music in pins
It has the classic Bally rising background tone!For me, it's game play every time. I had to overcome my dislike of the yankee fillum Pop Gun, which I regarded as jingoistic nonsense, to enjoy the two games which skated around licensing issues for it (Williams F-14 and Premier/Gottlieb Gold Wings).
And I don't think any game could appeal to me with the Flintstones theme.
What's up with the Flintstones ?
Cartoon were talking about of course.
Cartoon were talking about of course.
The only issue I have is they used the film rather than the cartoon as the basis for the pin.
Fortunately...someone... came up with a solution to that didn't they?
The only issue I have is they used the film rather than the cartoon as the basis for the pin.
Fortunately...someone... came up with a solution to that didn't they?
I never understood that, make a pin based on a cartoon that's been loved by generations or of the film version that's crap and flopped
It's just that I can't stand them - maybe I missed them while I was the 'right' age for them, and took against them when I did encounter the series.
Don't give up on the Pinball it's a cracker.
The theme attracts the new players and the game keeps them coming back. I'm new here, maybe I don't get the question fully!
I think pinballs have suffered a bit historically with some great themes having not-so-great games and the best games not having the best themes, what's the general consensus on that front?
I played so much pinball as a young lad in the local arcades, more than the vids... but I couldn't tell you the name of a single pinball machine I ever played before the age of about 14! I just had to pick them based on the look of the playfield as the ones with themes from films etc always seemed like a rip-off.
I think pinballs have suffered a bit historically with some great themes having not-so-great games and the best games not having the best themes, what's the general consensus on that front?
I played so much pinball as a young lad in the local arcades, more than the vids... but I couldn't tell you the name of a single pinball machine I ever played before the age of about 14! I just had to pick them based on the look of the playfield as the ones with themes from films etc always seemed like a rip-off.
You're not wrong. I've found some amazing games, stuff like Johnny Mnenomic where the film is a stinker to be a great machine. In fact the failure of a licence is what killed Pinball for WMS Industries when Star Wars Episode 1 was a total flop, it was a 'how can we lose!' licence for them and well...they lost. There was also the fact that the current owner at the time hated the Pinball devision and was looking for any excuse to shut it down. TAF and TZ are timeless, personally I'd relate to TAF as a more recent theme but TZ is so good you can look past it and really enjoy the game.
Ironically though, and something Stern fails to comprehend, is often the best loved games are non-licenced original themes. Find me a person out there who doesn't like either Medieval Madness or Attack from Mars and rates them in their top 10 and I'd be impressed.
Interesting as everyone always quotes the Pin2000 as being terrible. I'm not a fan of them and TAF + TZ are the greats in my mind, but sales wise:
TAF : 20,270
TZ : 15,235
MM : 4016
RFM : 6,878
SWE1 : 3525
WW : 7,008
MB : 3,361
In other words MM only sold a few more than SWE1 and way less than RFM. MB a fantastic game sold less than both Pin 2000s. Not exactly a total flop.
TAF : 20,270
TZ : 15,235
MM : 4016
RFM : 6,878
SWE1 : 3525
WW : 7,008
MB : 3,361
In other words MM only sold a few more than SWE1 and way less than RFM. MB a fantastic game sold less than both Pin 2000s. Not exactly a total flop.
I don't think Pin2000 is terrible, in fact I really like RFM as a game, it's good fun. It's a flop in terms of what it did for Pinball but it's highly debatable, it was likely it was on its way out from Williams anyway. They always say Pin2000 went back up to decent production levels with RFM but by that point despite the success it was already over.
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That would be me then :-D Impressed?
I much prefer/like AFM to MM but neither are in my Top 10 ;-)
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Okay I admit, I am impressed
I've probably made a huge mistake here and loads of people are going to tell me now that they are the same!
Can lightning strike 3 times? I always thought the major 'comebacks' where with Space Shuttle in the 80's and then TAF etc in the 90's.
Tough call this. I'm on the hunt for my first pin and am easily drawn to certain themes, Demolition Man, Jurassic Park, Sopranos... But then I play Dracula which is a theme I'm not especially fussed about and get horribly addicted, get into the just one more game mentality and think maybe I should reassess my first purchase criteria
Dude you are showing all the classic symptoms. You're gonna be an addict soon enough.
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BSD is one the the best 'one more games' out there for sure.
just get a game that has great gameplay and theme, so spiderman if comics is your thing, lotr for fantasy, and popeye if your grizz
Cheers for all the advice guys. I am looking at LOTR especially. For a newbie I have a horrible habit of hijacking peoples threads on here it seems so apologies for that
and yeah, ain't that the truth, most addictive pin I've played to date!
and yeah, ain't that the truth, most addictive pin I've played to date!
In an arcade: for me it's gameplay first followed by a theme I like. I'm guilty of ignoring pins I shouldn't because the theme doesn't appeal, but I usually value gameplay much more when I finally do play them.
Saying that... it's easy to say that you value gameplay most, but the light show put on when you play well just caps it all off and sometimes has me coming back to a less-than-ideal game - I like MSF because it just really sells it to me when you slam down multiball. Of course Bally/Williams stuff is even more renowned for properly going nuts with delight when they get played properly! You only have to look at the silly prices for TX-Sector and I'd wager most of that is down to the theme/music rather than gameplay - as much as I really like the game for being fast and forgiving to loose play, it's not the best, but it's trading for very silly prices right now.
When it comes to ownership: well I don't own any yet (hopefully changing that soon with an F14...) but I won't lie - I think the theme becomes as important as gameplay. I don't think I would be happy owning a game that, while great, did nothing for me aesthetically, because these things are not exactly tiny pieces of household furnishing. A Black Hole or Funhouse look great anywhere and on their own merits, whereas I don't think I could convince my wife to have a Baywatch in the living room!
I'm also never likely to buy mint collector's games; I'm looking to buy beat-up old bangers that I could restore to glory. When the machine is off, there's no gameplay anymore, it's just the machine and the theme, so unless pinball itself is enough to drive it all (I think that's the newbie talking..) it's got to be something you're happy to slave over!
Saying that... it's easy to say that you value gameplay most, but the light show put on when you play well just caps it all off and sometimes has me coming back to a less-than-ideal game - I like MSF because it just really sells it to me when you slam down multiball. Of course Bally/Williams stuff is even more renowned for properly going nuts with delight when they get played properly! You only have to look at the silly prices for TX-Sector and I'd wager most of that is down to the theme/music rather than gameplay - as much as I really like the game for being fast and forgiving to loose play, it's not the best, but it's trading for very silly prices right now.
When it comes to ownership: well I don't own any yet (hopefully changing that soon with an F14...) but I won't lie - I think the theme becomes as important as gameplay. I don't think I would be happy owning a game that, while great, did nothing for me aesthetically, because these things are not exactly tiny pieces of household furnishing. A Black Hole or Funhouse look great anywhere and on their own merits, whereas I don't think I could convince my wife to have a Baywatch in the living room!
I'm also never likely to buy mint collector's games; I'm looking to buy beat-up old bangers that I could restore to glory. When the machine is off, there's no gameplay anymore, it's just the machine and the theme, so unless pinball itself is enough to drive it all (I think that's the newbie talking..) it's got to be something you're happy to slave over!
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Shame - cos it's a damn good player
But can appreciate the theme isn't for everyone.Theme is HUGE part in how games are perceived ...... Tron has been huge hit for Stern, but slap a different so so theme on the exact same playfield and ruleset and watch it be shrugged into yesterdays news.
You're right, take Wrestlemania as an example.............Shame - cos it's a damn good player
Theme is HUGE part in how games are perceived ...... Tron has been huge hit for Stern, but slap a different so so theme on the exact same playfield and ruleset and watch it be shrugged into yesterdays news.
Well don't actually, it's shīte.
The theme itself can certainly be divisive, and Baywatch is a good example. Playboy's probably a safer theme than that Pamela Anderson!
Elvis is another. I hear its a good game and you know some will love that theme... I'm not personally itching to ever play it and listen to those sounds though. And if I owned one, people would assume I like Elvis...
My own pin I found out is not a theme for everyone: TOTAN! For me, I find the game and theme fit perfectly and the table comes together like a piece of art... but Martin came down, had a play, loves the playfield but says shame about the theme being a bit 'meh'. That aint a 'meh' theme, it's glorious!
The horror and Eliva themes seem safe bets. I guess that's why they dominated.
Then I think of The Walking Dead. I don't watch TV, hate the stuff. Never seen this show but the machine looks well nice so I've plowed a few dollars through it. It's a nice game but, again, I could never own a pin based on a newer TV show.
Theme seems way more important to consider as an owner than a player, what you think??
I would own a KISS machine and I really don't like the band (well, I assume I don't, I couldn't tell ya **** they done!). But that game is enough fun that I'd look past the theme.
I've never played the WWF themed ones but as a huge wrestling fan, they would have to be very poor games for me not to take a look...
Elvis is another. I hear its a good game and you know some will love that theme... I'm not personally itching to ever play it and listen to those sounds though. And if I owned one, people would assume I like Elvis...
My own pin I found out is not a theme for everyone: TOTAN! For me, I find the game and theme fit perfectly and the table comes together like a piece of art... but Martin came down, had a play, loves the playfield but says shame about the theme being a bit 'meh'. That aint a 'meh' theme, it's glorious!
The horror and Eliva themes seem safe bets. I guess that's why they dominated.
Then I think of The Walking Dead. I don't watch TV, hate the stuff. Never seen this show but the machine looks well nice so I've plowed a few dollars through it. It's a nice game but, again, I could never own a pin based on a newer TV show.
Theme seems way more important to consider as an owner than a player, what you think??
I would own a KISS machine and I really don't like the band (well, I assume I don't, I couldn't tell ya **** they done!). But that game is enough fun that I'd look past the theme.
I've never played the WWF themed ones but as a huge wrestling fan, they would have to be very poor games for me not to take a look...
A lot of it comes down to whether you are more of a gawper or a player.
Prime example is WPT. Shīt theme, ugly art, great gameplay.
I very much doubt someone who gravitates towards expensive LEs and the so called AAA Bally/Williams pins would give it a second look. But it is a great game with sublime rules.
Prime example is WPT. Shīt theme, ugly art, great gameplay.
I very much doubt someone who gravitates towards expensive LEs and the so called AAA Bally/Williams pins would give it a second look. But it is a great game with sublime rules.
Here here, I was a theme player until I played WPT. Ugly machine which did not appeal to me at all..... until I played it. Stop looking at them and play them.
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R
RobZombie
I think theme vs gameplay is a bit of a tunnel visioned argument really. People buy machines for a variety of reasons including budget, popularity of title, proximity and investment potential. But gameplay should always come before theme. I'd like to say that gameplay should come before all else but 'spending your money wisely' comes before all else in my book.
This thread was started almost 2 years ago, around the time I bought my first machine making the question relevant. Although now I'm more in line with your thoughts on the matter.
But but still have a list of themed games I'd like to own because of the theme, but I'd still want to play them first before committing to a purchase.
The other side to all this is that if the theme isn't that important and it's all down to how it plays, why are all pins now sold under a licenced theme and don't have a completed code before they're sold? The manufacturers must think that the theme is more important than the game play? I know theme will make a few extra sales for them but most pins are bought by pinheads.
