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TAF - odd swamp behaviour, kicks all 3 balls in play, not 'official' multiball.

Monkeyboypaul

Monkeyboypaul

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Joined
May 29, 2013
Messages
5,555
Location
South of York
Alias
Paul G
So here's the weird issue i'm seeing with some degree of regularity:

Issue description:
2 balls are locked for multiball - via vault, thing or swamp, and they're both in the Swamp ready.
The game is doing it's "1-more-lock-for-multiball" music and associated light show, the power's flashing, everything is as normal...

You add another ball to the swamp, via the higher/side entrance.

The game warns about a swamp kickout but doesn't do it. Then hunts for the ball (there are now 3 balls in the swamp).

Eventually it fires one ball out, then another and then another - perhaps a second in between.

All 3 balls are now in play - the multiball music has stopped - because the games is no longer primed for Multiball. As soon as the 1st ball drains it tries to do the end of ball bonus but soon stops as the other 2 balls are registering hits and racking a score up. Normal-ish play continues.

I hope this is not normal behaviour!

Fault finding:
Running ROM L-5, the one before GOLD.
All swamp switches check out in test, no WPC error messages.
I've installed the swamp accelerator correctly.

Diagnosis?
Is my switch matrix up the spout?
Are there any tests i can do to whittle this down?
Even if 1 switch was faulty, why kick out all three balls? It must be detecting a successful kickout, actively feeding another ball from the swamp trough to the kickout, the repeating...

Help very much appreciated.

UPDATE: Just seen Lee's post on this subject, may be a similar problem: http://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/addams-balls-stuck-in-swamp.8029/
 
do a test on all switches with a ball , not by flicking it with yr finger , test also that no switches are showing closed when they should be open , you can get things like this happening when a switch or 2 switches or more are closed or faulty and because of the way the matrix works this opens all sorts of differant paths on the same row and column of the matrix for other switches not to work or work when they should not . If that makes sense . there is a good video on you tube descibing in detail how to fault find these switch issues , the last problem i had was when a ball drained it tilted the machine ! this was due to the right ramp exit switch being closed and so then when the ball drained it set switches off on the same row and cloumn as the drain switch and the right ramp exit switch and one of these was the tilt switch
hope you understand what i mean
but do look at you tube
 
I am talking from memory but had a similar issue and found that when the third ball dropped in, the middle ball was not properly registered. There is also the switch in the Lock Kickout that tells the machine to launches the ball out of the swamp. So what the machine was seeing was Upper and Lower Lock but not Middle. Oddly, Lower and Middle registered until the upper ball dropped in. I was able to move the middle switch until it was consistent with a ball rolling in.
We are talking about switches 71, 72, 73 and 74.
 
thanks both for your help.

I've been over to the game and tried all the row 7 switches (together, separately, in sequence) and annoyingly everything seems to be in good working order. They all work very well using the balls to roll through and coming to rest in the 3 positions 71 - 72 - 73. I've since checked the reliability of solenoid 28 - Swamp Release, and it successfully pokes a ball through to the swamp kickout, swamp switch 74 registers, switch 71 opens again.

I played again and successfully forced the issue:

Monkeyboypaul said:
2 balls are locked for multiball - via vault, thing or swamp, and they're both in the Swamp ready.
The game is doing it's "1-more-lock-for-multiball" music and associated light show, the power's flashing, everything is as normal...

You add another ball to the swamp, via the higher/side entrance.
Click to expand...

I can hear 'a' solenoid firing but no ball movement in there.
Presume this is either 28 - Swap Release, or 8 - Lock-up Kickout. The former means it's unsuccessfully trying to poke a ball into the kickout. The latter means it's trying to kickout a ball even though there's no ball registered on the kickout switch (74). Regardless; it pauses for a few seconds, stops "1-more-lock-for-multiball" music and lightshow, then pokes (28), kicksout (8) , pokes (28), kicksout (8), pokes (28), kicksout (8).

3 balls in play - 1 confused person.


TAF_switchmatrix_Marked up.JPG
Weird that the 28: Swamp Release is listed as a 'flasher'.. i have the AE-30-2000 solenoid.
TAF_Solenoids_Marked up.JPG
 
I've just noticed that switch 71 - Swamp Lock Upper has the metal hinge on the wrong switch 'coupling'(?). It's attached on the far corner, not the coupling just in from that like the other switches in this area. The wire's also a bit out of shape too.

I'm going to replace this regardless, but can only find them on Pinball Center (nothing on PH, PM, 1stop etc.)
http://www.pinballcenter.eu/catalog/microswitch-p-765.html?language=english
IMG_0083.JPG
 
If it works in switch test then I don't see that will cause the issue. I remember someone saying the Cherry ones were prone to failure but again, if it works then it is unlikely to be the issue.
 
Calimori said:
If it works in switch test then I don't see that will cause the issue. I remember someone saying the Cherry ones were prone to failure but again, if it works then it is unlikely to be the issue.
Click to expand...

Agreed, it's not very logical, but it is switch 71 - swamp lock upper; the one that gets activated as the 3rd ball enters the trough and subsequently when this problem occurs.

Whilst i agree it's not likely to fix this, I would also like to eliminate or reduce the possibility of this switch being intermittent in some way.

Think it was the cherry's used on WPC95 that were prone to failure, but i cant see how they would be any different to these except maybe for a bad batch that B/W bought at the time?
 
I have those switches in stock. Mine are more expensive than pinball centre , but be warned that the switches from them are not cherry, and have a very heavy activation force requirement. So much do that they hold balls up. I sent loads back to them some time ago as unsatisfactory.
 
That sounds like the story I heard, I guess it could be a bad one, recycled from another machine.

Thoughts:
When you lock the 3rd ball in the electric chair, does it register correctly and start multi-ball? You haven't mentioned it. Double check that the chair switch is also fine.

Next thought, we are talking about the ball going into the book case to start multiball. Have you checked that the ball is registered correctly there as well?

If two balls are locked and a third is entered into the swamp via the in-lane, does it kick a ball out as usual?
 
pinballmania said:
I have those switches in stock. Mine are more expensive than pinball centre , but be warned that the switches from them are not cherry, and have a very heavy activation force requirement. So much do that they hold balls up. I sent loads back to them some time ago as unsatisfactory.
Click to expand...
Andy,

Apologies I couldn't find 5647-12693-25 on your switch pages.
http://www.pinballmania.co.uk/microswitches.htm
I'll email you an enquiry as normal.


FYI - I have also had some annoying experiences with Pinball Center, namely buying some green targets for AFM which were not really AFM targets.

i.e.

http://www.pinballcenter.eu/catalog/standup-target-green-rectangular-p-1806.html?language=english

vs. the real thing (sorry using PH link as easier):

http://www.pinballheaven.co.uk/shop...ck-from-mars-green-square-18018-21-p-267.html

Also missing items on 50% of my orders.

They do have an impressive inventory and webshop though.

Paul.
 
I also have the AFM targets. I have many parts that are not on my website. Always worth an ask.
 
Calimori said:
Thoughts:
When you lock the 3rd ball in the electric chair, does it register correctly and start multi-ball? You haven't mentioned it. Double check that the chair switch is also fine.
Click to expand...

This works exactly as it should - 2 balls are locked, 3rd ball goes into the chair, multiball starts, balls kickout from the swamp and chair.

Calimori said:
Next thought, we are talking about the ball going into the book case to start multiball. Have you checked that the ball is registered correctly there as well?
Click to expand...

This works exactly as it should - 2 balls are locked, 3rd ball goes into the vault, multiball starts, balls kickout from the swamp. In this scenario the 3rd ball ends up in trough - but i'm not sure if solenoid 28 - Swap Release does it's bit straight away BEFORE the 3rd ball arrives, so i dont get the same set of circumstances where all 3 swamp switches are loaded - just the 2 + swamp kickout.

Calimori said:
If two balls are locked and a third is entered into the swamp via the in-lane, does it kick a ball out as usual?
Click to expand...

This is where i see the problems.

I have just spent about 5mins locking balls 1&2; then feeding the 3rd ball into the swamp inlane over and over, forcing the swamp to cycle through..

28 swamp release -->8 Swamp Kickout --> 28 swamp release --> 8 Swamp Kickout etc.

...and managed to trigger the problem a couple of times.

It could be when it goes in the swamp inlane with some degree of force and jostles the other balls off there switch locations, or it could be my 28 Swamp release coil is bit feeble and not pushing the ball enough.

I'll video it firing as the 1st jolt is often less powerful than any subsequent jolts.

The swamp kicker is high power and seems to be fine every time.

Appreciate this help!
 
When ordering from Andy just send him a mail telling him what you want.
I think it's a case of , I have better things to do than spend ages on my site updating everything.

If Andy started to sort his site out no one would see him till this time next year.
 
Here's a video of the problem occurring:


Watch from about 25secs in with the volume up and listen for the change in music.
 
...and here's a video of the swamp trough being triggered into thinking there are balls present during attract mode.

Do you possibly think i have a weak solenoid 28 - Swamp release/knockoff?

The first jolt appears weaker than subsequent jolts.

 
Can't see the video but am wondering if the issue is caused by the plunger being worn or if your pinballs have magnetised...
 
Moonraker is blind like Tommy and that is why he is a Pinball Wizard. You would never know if you met him or saw him drive a car.
It is going to rain so I am back inside and will be repeating your tests on my TAF to see what other switch we haven't considered.

Bare with me, I am thinking what we haven't troubleshooted yet.

Does the machine go into Multi-ball lock mode in all of the following:
Lock first ball at Bookcase, second ball at Bookcase
Lock first ball at Bookcase, second ball at Swamp
Lock first ball at Bookcase, second ball at THING
Lock first ball at THING, second ball at THING
Lock first ball at THING, second ball at Bookcase
Lock first ball at THING, second ball at Swamp

This should activate the right switches to lock ball one and two. Your video shows that the Swamp lock light is activated so that means Bookcase or THING locks must be activated or else Swamp lock would not be activated. You can lock ball two at swamp and move to multi-ball but ball 3 dropped into the swamp gets a solinoid fire but no eject, then it does a ball search and ejects all the balls.

Let me try to recreate this.
 
Incidentally, referring to your earlier comment, it's not uncommon for "weak" solenoids to be described as "flasher" as the circuitry to drive them is the same.
 
Does your -2000 coil have a locating flange at either end. This can cause variable strength.
 
Monkeyboypaul said:
Learnt something new today!

Possibly a silly question, but why aren't the parts you sell visible on your website?
Click to expand...
I have vast numbers of lines in relatively small quantities. The inventory of a shop would be a nightmare to maintain, as I also use the parts when out on the road. All parts that I have stock of, or may have stocked in the past are listed here http://www.pinballmania.co.uk/partslist.htm also accessible from the home page and you can search that page using your browser ctrl-F.
 
pinballmania said:
Does your -2000 coil have a locating flange at either end. This can cause variable strength.
Click to expand...
Hi,

Not quite sure what this refers to... Hopefully photos will answer the question, but it does slightly twist inside the bracket although everything is nice & tightened.

image.jpgimage.jpg


image.jpg
image.jpg
 
Last edited:
Calimori said:
Moonraker is blind like Tommy and that is why he is a Pinball Wizard. You would never know if you met him or saw him drive a car.
It is going to rain so I am back inside and will be repeating your tests on my TAF to see what other switch we haven't considered.

Bare with me, I am thinking what we haven't troubleshooted yet.

Does the machine go into Multi-ball lock mode in all of the following:
Lock first ball at Bookcase, second ball at Bookcase
Lock first ball at Bookcase, second ball at Swamp
Lock first ball at Bookcase, second ball at THING
Lock first ball at THING, second ball at THING
Lock first ball at THING, second ball at Bookcase
Lock first ball at THING, second ball at Swamp

This should activate the right switches to lock ball one and two. Your video shows that the Swamp lock light is activated so that means Bookcase or THING locks must be activated or else Swamp lock would not be activated. You can lock ball two at swamp and move to multi-ball but ball 3 dropped into the swamp gets a solinoid fire but no eject, then it does a ball search and ejects all the balls.

Let me try to recreate this.
Click to expand...
I've gone through the combinations and all apply.

The problem appears to occur when the 3rd ball enters the swamp in all scenarios.

Perhaps the knockoff is failing to nudge the ball into lockout and only tries once (bit crap?).

Or the trough switches are somehow duff and causing problems.

...Be nice to see the switch matrix logic in game...
 
Not sure what I have learnt from my tests other than the fact the machine is rather complex.
I managed to re-create my last issue which was switch 72 (Middle) registering until 3rd ball and then the slight movement of the ball causing it not to. This causes the machine to kickout a ball from the swamp and restart 2nd ball lock. If Switch 72 is permanently on, then it also get confused after ball one is entered into the swamp.
If you have switch 71 (Upper) permanently stuck on, you hear it firing the swamp release constantly but if Switch 71 is not working or removed, it doesn't know the ball is there to release one.
I was unable to get 73 (Lower) to stay stuck on or not work. I will take a look tomorrow.
Another switch to investigate were 68 (vault) but if it didn't work you wouldn't register anything at the Bookcase.
 
Can you video the switch matrix display as you drop one two then three balls into the swamp?
 
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