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JJP3 The Future of Pinball

Agree totally as there must be a mountain of debt to clear.

What I meant is that Jack and Gary have been going toe to toe since Jack started JJP. The outcome has been a massive price rise.

I remember talking to Jack at the UKPP about 4 years ago and it was clear how much animosity he had towards Gary.

As consumers how much have we benefited? More choice. Tick. Higher prices......
 
Jack hinted a lot on the private forum about Gary sabotaging his company. Basically threatening parts vendors he would pull their contracts if they dared to do any work for JJP
 
jonathan said:
Jack hinted a lot on the private forum about Gary sabotaging his company. Basically threatening parts vendors he would pull their contracts if they dared to do any work for JJP
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I remember that. Just seems like their private battle has co-incided with massive price increases. Agree it is way more complex than this though.

It's a shame as I quite liked the feedback on Dialed In but the price just kills any thought of owning it. The majority of players at Expo loved it. Could have been so much better but they will make some changes.
 
What's happening now is a price war in reverse.

In the medium to long term it will have exactly the same effect as a conventional price war.

Prices will come down and margins will be eroded, this due to a sudden shortfall in demand. It also risks the traditional failure of companies due to losses incurred.

Regarding JJP having to put prices up, even though the bill of materials on Dialled In is surely much lower than WOZ, it isn't necessary at all for the health of their business. Cash flow is what they need, to service debt and gain market share. This upward pricing will likely erode potential cash flow significantly, even if demand for WOZ and Hobbit allows them to pad production to an extent where fixed cost burden and fewer DIs sold don't result in losses but rather increased profits.
 
I'd be surprised if they took on finance for any other reason than that they had burnt trough the all the WOZ money and the pre-pay money from the Hobbit. I've no idea how many people are employed there but staff are expensive. Investors also now need to be paid back. Will hiking the price bring in more revenue though? How sensitive is demand in relation to price? Stern are in the great position of releasing 3/4 machines a year. JJP are at 1 every couple of years. Cashflow must have been a nightmare. Stern can also survive with a game that sells less than expected, could any of the other companies do the same?
 
looks like we are all keen to play dialled in but not buy it. with gb there was both as the price was reasonable in relation to other games. 12k has no relation to any other game apart from maybe BBB
 
Much more interested in this over Hobbit & Woz. Seems much faster gameplay and std sized too.

The theme is a bit Roadshow'ey (meh) , that little man is a bit like Bob the Builder. All the mobile gubbins I couldn't care for but those people who can't leave their phones alone for 2 seconds will shat em'selves over that.

From a first look I'd say this game would do really well on location, I reckon kids will love it with all the gubbins and it will rinse you pretty quickly == $$$.

I see he finally got to put the Wizard block lamps in a game:)
 
ducks said:
What's happening now is a price war in reverse.

In the medium to long term it will have exactly the same effect as a conventional price war.

Prices will come down and margins will be eroded, this due to a sudden shortfall in demand. It also risks the traditional failure of companies due to losses incurred.

Regarding JJP having to put prices up, even though the bill of materials on Dialled In is surely much lower than WOZ, it isn't necessary at all for the health of their business. Cash flow is what they need, to service debt and gain market share. This upward pricing will likely erode potential cash flow significantly, even if demand for WOZ and Hobbit allows them to pad production to an extent where fixed cost burden and fewer DIs sold don't result in losses but rather increased profits.
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There's a fair bit of speculation in there, stated as fact. We don't know the terms of their recent investments, what the strategic intentions of those investors are, how much cash they have available because of those investments, existing debt to service, payback terms of that debt, etc. And equally we know very little about their competition's ability to act in the market when put under major competitive pressure either (JJP probably do though, or are certainly making assumptions when devising their strategy).

I doubt it's greed driving JJP's price increases, as has been suggested earlier in this post, more likely some very logical reason that we just aren't privy to; but I also doubt it's as simple as you are stating about cash flow - otherwise their rational action would have been to cut prices and shift volume (my assumption is they, and their investors, are acting rationally, and are not daft).

Stern on the other hand...well, they seem to be happy enough in their dominant market position with their superior manufacturing capabilities, with very little innovation really. Hopefully JJP will push them for the top end, and Andy H. will push them from the bottom end, and they will eventually up their game, not just their prices. Or they might be a fat cash cow and see off the threat from the other two with ease, and we'll go back to the Stern games of the mid to late noughties that we all complained about the quality of. Time will tell I guess.
 
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There is rarely ever a case where it is in the interests of such a young business where, in the crudest terms (ignoring demand / supply), pricing to maximise profit is desirable. Especially one that has aspirations to gain as much market share as they want, and to sell as many DIs as they've mentioned. They have massive fixed costs. Pricing lower will reduce the average cost due to higher production numbers, whilst being much less risky, and increasing cash flow.

It may be over confidence rather than greed. But seeing a standard body game that clearly costs less than WOZ priced the same as a RR is rightly being questioned ... especially as it directly follows completely barmy price setting on Stern's part.

If the standard version misses the webcam as well as shiny trim, and comes in quite a bit cheaper than a WOZ or Hobbit standard, then I suppose it might sell well. Doesn't seem terribly likely they'll do that though.
 
ducks said:
There is rarely ever a case where it is in the interests of such a young business where, in the crudest terms (ignoring demand / supply), pricing to maximise profit is desirable. Especially one that has aspirations to gain as much market share as they want, and to sell as many DIs as they've mentioned. They have massive fixed costs. Pricing lower will reduce the average cost due to higher production numbers, whilst being much less risky, and increasing cash flow.

It may be over confidence rather than greed. But seeing a standard body game that clearly costs less than WOZ priced the same as a RR is rightly being questioned ... especially as it directly follows completely barmy price setting on Stern's part.

If the standard version misses the webcam as well as shiny trim, and comes in quite a bit cheaper than a WOZ or Hobbit standard, then I suppose it might sell well. Doesn't seem terribly likely they'll do that though.
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So many assumptions based on zero verifiable evidence, I don't really know where to start. So I won't bother.
 
Mfresh said:
Here's a wee bit of video of Dialed I being controlled by a phone. I tried t myself and there's no obvious delay so it works quite well

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That is so wrong I can't even begin to get my head round it. It's a pinball machine FFS!!! Lean into it! Play it! Feel it! Hump it if you want ! Press the bloody buttons and put your fecking iPhone away.


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The LE hasn't really increased in price... the $ vs GBP has pushed the price up.

So JJP LE $9000
Stern Batman LE $10000

I know which I would rather have...

Phil
 
JT. said:
So many assumptions based on zero verifiable evidence, I don't really know where to start. So I won't bother.
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Ah, yes. Because everyone has detailed accounts of JJP's every operation and cost. Oh, wait, they don't ... so every single person must refrain from comment?

The only major assumption I made was that they're unlikely to make a Standard significantly below the price of similar WOZ / Hobbit machines ... but that seems like a reasonable guess given the price of the LE.

People (in markets where a depreciating currency hasn't changed things) don't like the price because:

1) It's a standard body, with much simpler internals than WOZ and Hobbit, and far fewer features than the former. So it immediately seems like a cash grab.
2) People think that's the entry price, as very little has been said about a Standard model, though it has now been confirmed.
3) Theme, selfies, phone ringing sound. But I don't think they'd complain about those if it weren't for 1 & 2.

If they reach close to production capacity at the factory with this pricing, kudos to them ... but I don't think they will.
 
ducks said:
Ah, yes. Because everyone has detailed accounts of JJP's every operation and cost. Oh, wait, they don't ... so every single person must refrain from comment?

The only major assumption I made was that they're unlikely to make a Standard significantly below the price of similar WOZ / Hobbit machines ... but that seems like a reasonable guess given the price of the LE.

People (in markets where a depreciating currency hasn't changed things) don't like the price because:

1) It's a standard body, with much simpler internals than WOZ and Hobbit, and far fewer features than the former. So it immediately seems like a cash grab.
2) People think that's the entry price, as very little has been said about a Standard model, though it has now been confirmed.
3) Theme, selfies, phone ringing sound. But I don't think they'd complain about those if it weren't for 1 & 2.

If they reach close to production capacity at the factory with this pricing, kudos to them ... but I don't think they will.
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Comments are clearly fine; you present your speculation as fact, like you have some insider knowledge of what is happening - same in the Heighway thread too; I actually thought you worked for Heighway at one point, before realising it was all just guessing wrapped up as knowledge :confused: Here's another major assumption you made: that the current price increase (of $500 extra on an LE versus Hobbit o_O) is about 'maximising profit', whereas it actually might have been necessary to simply break even , and that might have been a stipulation of the most recent investment. You're seeing (actually, small) cost increase and reaching the conclusion it's down to greed, over-confidence or incompetence on the part of JJP (i.e. your criticism of price increase rather than chasing cashflow increase) , rather than assuming that you are simply not in possession of all of (any of?) the facts.
 
philpalmer said:
The LE hasn't really increased in price... the $ vs GBP has pushed the price up.

So JJP LE $9000
Stern Batman LE $10000

I know which I would rather have...

Phil
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Totally agree, all we are seeing is the £ to $, we all know its tanked by nearly 30% in recent months. :eek:

So take a game that was say £7,500 add on 30% and you in the £9 to £10k region.

No doubt USA built NIB UK machines for the foreseeable will be like rocking horse poop! :(
 
JT. said:
Comments are clearly fine; you present your speculation as fact, like you have some insider knowledge of what is happening - same in the Heighway thread too; I actually thought you worked for Heighway at one point, before realising it was all just guessing wrapped up as knowledge :confused: Here's another major assumption you made: that the current price increase (of $500 extra on an LE versus Hobbit o_O) is about 'maximising profit', whereas it actually might have been necessary to simply break even , and that might have been a stipulation of the most recent investment. You're seeing (actually, small) cost increase and reaching the conclusion it's down to greed, over-confidence or incompetence on the part of JJP (i.e. your criticism of price increase rather than chasing cashflow increase) , rather than assuming that you are simply not in possession of all of (any of?) the facts.
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It's not speculation.

You conflate your lack of knowledge with what you think is mine.

The cost to JJP is massively below WOZ and most probably well below Hobbit.

What are you talking about re: Heighway?

You seemed shocked that I knew so much about AP and asked if I was an insider. Knowledge, as I replied, was simply from previously disclosed information and a couple of minutes of googling to confirm and expand upon some details.

Information really isn't very difficult to find.
 
Going back to the game itself, once thing that's worth mentioning is that the visual side is a bit of a mishmash. The main artwork is quite dark and austere, with the figure holding up his phone. It's not quite Judge Dredd dark, but it is is definitely dark comic book style.

But the backbox video is much lighter Sim City style with silly headlines scrolling across the screen, and in complete contrast to the artwork on the playfield and cabinet. It hadn't really occurred to me before but Pat Lawlor said the game was meant to be humourous, yet the art doesn't reflect this at all. It's almost as if JP de Win who did the screen animations had no contact at all with Youssi doing the cabinet art. Very odd.

Also did anyone mention yet that the playfield has little drone toys?
 
ducks said:
It's not speculation.

You conflate your lack of knowledge with what you think is mine.

The cost to JJP is massively below WOZ and most probably well below Hobbit.

What are you talking about re: Heighway?

You seemed shocked that I knew so much about AP and asked if I was an insider. Knowledge, as I replied, was simply from previously disclosed information and a couple of minutes of googling to confirm and expand upon some details.

Information really isn't very difficult to find.
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If it isn't merely speculation as you say, provide a source for all of your statements about JJP.
 
I'm up for the phone integration but surely to do more than just remote control the flippers. I was expecting some wacky functionality that allowed people around the machine to interact with it versus the player, chase modes around that type of thing. Perhaps there is more to come.
 
where are these drones Paul?

Jayteedot, ducks just spat in your burger ...... and ducks, JT. just called you a bastard. fight!

gif mj popcorn.gif
 
The pound will recover. its a short term issue that was predicted by many (intact I made killing out of it!) but in real terms _nothing_ has changed. Trade between UK and other countries hasn't changed, actually, its increased with significant investment come into the UK since the brexit vote. (and btw I wanted the UK to stay in the EU) Also don't forget that the Euro is artificially high owing to managing the greek (And others) crisis which is far from resolved. The UK economy is higher than it should be because of the payouts on PPI which kept the UK in a good place but thats coming to an end. The big issue for the UK is interest rates which need to move upwards otherwise we will be in real trouble.

With regards JJP, the difference in machine size does nothing to the difference in the labour required, materials is only half, probably even less, of what drives the prices of these machines.

I predict JJP will sell everyone of their machines; I predict the next Stern releases will be inline with the current pricing for Ghostbusters with perhaps a small bump to cover inflation (with prices recovering in the UK as the pound strengthens). I predict those that are making machines for less will either make crap machines or go out of business.

Regards,
Neil.
 
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Ah pinball info - keeping it classy (R) 2016


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