How long does pinball have left?

[VeeMonroe]

Hard to tell

For me, pinball is about returning me to when I was a teenager, So i tend to like mid70's to 1990's machines
But you find that given the chance, people like to play DMD Bally/Williams, 2010 and on Stern, or modern LCD games
As long as it is interesting, people will play

But if you are hoarding woodrails for your retirement, I think you will be out of luck

My kids tend to like EMs (and TNA) because the rules are easy. They also like the modern Sterns 'because they're newer'. So, the 90s B/W only get played by my husband and I.

In general, I think the current trend of making modern versions of throwback pins is a good one, especially on location, because then it 'looks new' but has simple rules.

 

[Jackpot]

I've tried to get some new folks involved in pinball by hosting this Funland tournament in Central London - only a couple of newbies in the end though there was a fair bit of interest (and some returning players) but it is tough.

Perhaps a future event in the UK could be a specific "bring a newbie" to pinball tournament? We could still play group matchplay as normal for IFPA points but any trophies could go to the best combined score of the experienced player and the new player they brought. Or perhaps the top 4 pairings would play a final to decide it - either split flipper, alternate ball or combined scores in one game. Just a random thought.

 

[David_Vi]

I've tried to get some new folks involved in pinball by hosting this Funland tournament in Central London - only a couple of newbies in the end though there was a fair bit of interest (and some returning players) but it is tough.

Perhaps a future event in the UK could be a specific "bring a newbie" to pinball tournament? We could still play group matchplay as normal for IFPA points but any trophies could go to the best combined score of the experienced player and the new player they brought. Or perhaps the top 4 pairings would play a final to decide it - either split flipper, alternate ball or combined scores in one game. Just a random thought.

We know a few people who claim to enjoy Pinball but still won't make the effort to visit us, or come to the Pinball office. It's incredibly difficult to get people into this hobby.

So many people come to The Pinball Office having played when young, or curious, enjoy it then never return.

People into pinball are really into pinball (that's all of us). There's not much in-between, no casual pinball fans really.

 

[Tilt_Birmingham]

We know a few people who claim to enjoy Pinball but still won't make the effort to visit us, or come to the Pinball office. It's incredibly difficult to get people into this hobby.

So many people come to The Pinball Office having played when young, or curious, enjoy it then never return.

People into pinball are really into pinball (that's all of us). There's not much in-between, no casual pinball fans really.

People in this hobby generally have pinballs and will only go to venues for events...

All my players are casual players and we have dozens and dozens of regulars who come to play pinball. But we are on the high street with amazing transportation link

 

[JT.]

This is really hard to judge imo - things are often cyclical, with things you'd have thought were long dead making a resurgence. So many factors to consider with pinball though - not least the death of the high street and pub culture/venues - that I wouldn't even want to guess whether it'll be around in 20 years. I know I wouldn't want to be sat on that £1m order of new pinballs that Pinball Heaven had on their Facebook page recently though (unless they were already sold, then I'd maybe start thinking about long holiday/retirement plans!!)

 

[VeeMonroe]

I've tried to get some new folks involved in pinball by hosting this Funland tournament in Central London - only a couple of newbies in the end though there was a fair bit of interest (and some returning players) but it is tough.

Perhaps a future event in the UK could be a specific "bring a newbie" to pinball tournament? We could still play group matchplay as normal for IFPA points but any trophies could go to the best combined score of the experienced player and the new player they brought. Or perhaps the top 4 pairings would play a final to decide it - either split flipper, alternate ball or combined scores in one game. Just a random thought.

I don’t think tournament is the best value to get newbies into pinball, unfortunately I play dramatically better than people who play casual games in the house and find Thursday night league (and London & SE league) incredibly intimidating because it’s so dispiriting when your aim is ‘don’t come last’ (and I don’t even manage that a lot of the time).

It’s very obvious a lot of players have been playing for a long time (as with many competitive hobbies) and the only reason it doesn’t suck as much as competitive Magic the Gathering is because I don’t have to matchplay with 15 year olds.

 

[AlanJ]

bingo machines have gone. but then again they were superseded by flipper pins.

ems are relegated to the bottom by most who prefer electronic games.

SS are still holding their own against dmd / lcd

 

[Jackpot]

I don’t think tournament is the best value to get newbies into pinball, unfortunately I play dramatically better than people who play casual games in the house and find Thursday night league (and London & SE league) incredibly intimidating because it’s so dispiriting when your aim is ‘don’t come last’ (and I don’t even manage that a lot of the time).

It’s very obvious a lot of players have been playing for a long time (as with many competitive hobbies) and the only reason it doesn’t suck as much as competitive Magic the Gathering is because I don’t have to matchplay with 15 year olds.

Vee, the league at PBR is a pretty high standard one - across 15 games with regular club patrons who know the games quite well it can be tough, especially in a best game format.

Group matchplay tournaments are the most fun (my personal opinion only), because on a single game, anything can happen. The newer/less experienced player may not finish high in the overall standings, but they'll likely have that one game where they beat <insert great/good player here> or came 2nd because they had a decent game and got a multiball started. And you get the social aspect (as well as learning) you won't really get in tournament formats where you just play by yourself or in a 2 and submit your scores at the end.

 

[David_Vi]

Vee, the league at PBR is a pretty high standard one - across 15 games with regular club patrons who know the games quite well it can be tough, especially in a best game format.

Group matchplay tournaments are the most fun (my personal opinion only), because on a single game, anything can happen. The newer/less experienced player may not finish high in the overall standings, but they'll likely have that one game where they beat <insert great/good player here> or came 2nd because they had a decent game and got a multiball started. And you get the social aspect (as well as learning) you won't really get in tournament formats where you just play by yourself or in a 2 and submit your scores at the end.

I second this. A league format (especially at pbr) is not a great way to get into pinball or learn to be a better player. Group Matchplay is the best for this. Gets you mixing with different people and anything can happen .

 

[Gonzo]

I've tried to get so many people into pinball but most aren't interested. I have BBQ's with non pinball folk all the time so parents and kids alike are here.

We all think pinball is the greatest thing in the world but as David suggested . . . that's why we're typing on a pinball forum.

I have 3 teenage kids so have a lot of contact with their mates. I'm afraid to say that the TikTok generation don't have the attention span to learn rules never mind stand still. Of course there are exceptions, which is why I bang on about approachable rule-sets.

Someone said in an earlier post (perhaps Vee?) that some new people find modern games too hard . . . . they are. My girlfriend has 3 kids so we'll often have a 16 year old, 2 x14 year old's and and 11 year old boy here. None of them played more than 3 games on foo fighters and even Deadpool they're not fussed about. The lack of bash toys, proper ball locks and over complicated tight shots is a killer for getting kids into pinball.

Funnily enough they seemed to quite enjoy trying to lock the ball in the safe on Soprano's. My kids also loved trying to hit Dracula when he came out of the coffin on Monster Bash. After a while they would then ask about other rules because they were hooked. But most modern games don't offer enough easy shots, toys, mechs and pinball moments early enough to appeal to the general public.

I was hopeful that my daughter would like roadshow, Ted in particular is a great toy. But it's too tough. The barrier leads to frequent sdtm and the mouth is very hard to hit during multiball.

Fortunately we still have the crane on Batman but the simple truth is that I need WPC games to keep the kids playing. I'll certainly be changing some games.

As for pinball on the playstation or phone. . . . . it's not as good as GTA or Call of Duty so 99% of teens won't play it.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Funnily enough they seemed to quite enjoy trying to lock the ball in the safe on Soprano's. My kids also loved trying to hit Dracula when he came out of the coffin on Monster Bash. After a while they would then ask about other rules because they were hooked. But most modern games don't offer enough easy shots, toys, mechs and pinball moments early enough to appeal to the general public.

I was hopeful that my daughter would like roadshow, Ted in particular is a great toy. But it's too tough. The barrier leads to frequent sdtm and the mouth is very hard to hit during multiball.

Fortunately we still have the crane on Batman but the simple truth is that I need WPC games to keep the kids playing. I'll certainly be changing some games.

If I had a lot of kids over here, I’d probably swap something out for an Addams, Cactus Canyon remake (if one ever turns up) or Monster Bash. Lots of toys, really easy shots, very physically attractive, easy to avoid an immediate SDTM (on most machines anyway)…

Lord of the Rings used to be very popular when we owned it because literally anyone could get the balrog to come out - and that was the hook into the game.

My boys (aged 3 and 6) were totally obsessed with TNA for a while because the ruleset is so incredibly simple. This came as a complete surprise to me because it has no toys and no theme. Then, JP2 came in and now the only thing my six year old plays is JP2. The thing is that he’s a good pinball player, better than us, and finds it very easy to start T-Rex multiball. Once he’d got T-Rex multiball started once, he was hooked (and so was his little brother, albeit as a spectator) because he’s a little kid and it has roaring dinosaurs - but it’s very obvious it’s nowhere as popular at Funland because a casual player couldn’t start that multiball.

Interestingly, Star Wars is really popular on location. From what I’ve seen, people come for the theme and stay for the tie fighter shooting (which is very easy to start).

 

[Gonzo]

If I had a lot of kids over here, I’d probably swap something out for an Addams, Cactus Canyon remake (if one ever turns up) or Monster Bash. Lots of toys, really easy shots, very physically attractive, easy to avoid an immediate SDTM (on most machines anyway)…

Lord of the Rings used to be very popular when we owned it because literally anyone could get the balrog to come out - and that was the hook into the game.

My boys (aged 3 and 6) were totally obsessed with TNA for a while because the ruleset is so incredibly simple. This came as a complete surprise to me because it has no toys and no theme. Then, JP2 came in and now the only thing my six year old plays is JP2. The thing is that he’s a good pinball player, better than us, and finds it very easy to start T-Rex multiball. Once he’d got T-Rex multiball started once, he was hooked (and so was his little brother, albeit as a spectator) because he’s a little kid and it has roaring dinosaurs - but it’s very obvious it’s nowhere as popular at Funland because a casual player couldn’t start that multiball.

Interestingly, Star Wars is really popular on location. From what I’ve seen, people come for the theme and stay for the tie fighter shooting (which is very easy to start).

Yes indeed. Cactus and the Balrog are great examples.

Cactus is pretty much the perfect game, I'm glad toy reminded me. The kids absolutely loved it when it was here.

 

[Chief]

We have loads of local youngsters of all ages playing pinball at Chief Coffee in Chiswick, West London, since we opened over 8 years ago, and only see increasing popularity from the younger crowd.
Medieval Madness, Monster Bash and Cactus Canyon are the favourites

 

[Ashbo]

At my house.....

Me: who fancies a game of pinball?
Everyone else: sigh (rolls eyes).....no!
Me: anyone fancy a day out to play pinball?
Everyone else: sign, no. (rolls eyes again)

There are exceptions to this, but few and far between. I can sometimes get a few games out of guests to the house, but apart from RFM which really excited younger members of my family and friendship group, it's difficult for anyone younger that 20 to see the point and anyone older it's a bit "meh".

I took my dad and step son to Tilt a few months ago. Raging success. The Sterns were a bit meh, but the Bally Williams upstairs went down a storm. If I were closer I could probably get them infront of public pins more often, but the closest pins to me are Skeggy, and I can't remember the last time I went there....

Is it dying....nah, but everyone's tastes are different. I think we have gone through a huge "faddy" peak with home bars and man caves, I should know, my man cave is now a slimmed down pin space / office. But there is enough interest for the hobby to endure. Perhaps some of the less fashionable titles will return to being undesirable again after a brief resurgence.

 

[M4carp]

Oh I forgot, the biggest draw with guests and family in my room is the Paragon Quiz machine. The last time me and my mrs had a session down in my gamesroom (until 4am) she put £50 in the quiz machine and a few games on Taxi & MM, thank god I have the cash box keys

Most people don’t get it so no point forcing it, is what it is and that’s just fine by me.

 

[M4carp]

We have loads of local youngsters of all ages playing pinball at Chief Coffee in Chiswick, West London, since we opened over 8 years ago, and only see increasing popularity from the younger crowd.
Medieval Madness, Monster Bash and Cactus Canyon are the favourites

Hipster land so not surprised, my parents liked it there too! (as well as me)
Coffee isn’t bad either Medieval Madness is the one they all like here too

 

[Andy.S]

I only got the T.Z pinball to add to a games room in a holiday home I had, the holiday home has gone but the T.Z is sitting with 9 others at home now. I had zero interest in pinball until I added a second machine next to the T.Z and that’s when the problem started.
pinball is safe, it’s up to us to promote the hobby with friends and family which I do with a BBQ on many occasions each year.

Yep you promote it alright! Because of that TZ I now have 8

I was promoting Met with the gf’s mum tonight, although she doesn’t fit into the younger generation category

 

[RetroHeed]

I have had a maximum of 3 pins in our games room at any one time, those being Time Machine, Revenge from Mars and a GhostBusters that I had on hire for two months. Time Machine being the pin that kids loved and always went to play first.

My kids have friends over every other day after school, initially it was all about coming here to play pinball when we had the 3 machines in but now not so much.

Now I only have a TNA and I absolutely love it, the youngest isn't to fussed but my eldest sons like to play back and forth but I have to force him to play and drag him of the Xbox recently. I actually think having a detached games room from the house doesn't help. When I want them to play I I block the their Xbox connection or its bed time they want to play, but that's them bored and coming out to play pinball just to try stay up late.

Two weeks ago my eldest popped round with his friends to play TNA which was great fun, there was 3 oh them and me and we played single games, co-op and teams. Teams was really really awesome as we swapped about and the kids that got paired with me thought they were on the winning team, they were proven wrong haha.

"How long does pinball have left" Not so sure, kids these days prefer video games (I did also in the 90s) more so as they play online with friends. The key to keep the youngsters interested is fast quick games, co-op and having mini competitions with them I think. but the more people top play the better, that's a certainty. The long game with complex rules I do not think from what I have seen is what they like, I don't like the complex either tbh.

 

[PeteB]

Interesting that people are having these conversations now. I remember bringing up this exact point about 10 years ago and was quickly shot down by naysayers who couldn't possibly imagine a scenario where their favourite toys would fall from popularity.

Here's when it will end - when Gen X start selling off their collections.

The Boomers are already selling off their pins, retiring from the hobby, or just simply dying. Gen X run the show at the moment and are buying up all the new releases, saving and refurbing old games etc. The problem is there's not enough Millennials (my generation) getting into pinball to sustain the rate of growth that home ownership has seen over the last 15-20 years. Gen Z will never prop up pinball - everyone knows this. But, the Millennials will keep it niche after the market collapses.

I'd give it until 2030 when you'll start to hear things like Stern starting to cut back on production, prices for old games start coming down, so that'll be past it's peak and then it's all down hill from there. Who knows what will happen but buyers will dry up.

It's all very good saying there's X amount of youngsters in competitions but as many people have already stated, there's simply not enough exposure of pins our in the wild for youngers to get into it. Plus the world is just totally different now anyway, with technology and the internet etc. It's hard to even find a decent bowling alley these days, never mind pinball.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

Interesting that people are having these conversations now. I remember bringing up this exact point about 10 years ago and was quickly shot down by naysayers who couldn't possibly imagine a scenario where their favourite toys would fall from popularity.

Here's when it will end - when Gen X start selling off their collections.

The Boomers are already selling off their pins, retiring from the hobby, or just simply dying. Gen X run the show at the moment and are buying up all the new releases, saving and refurbing old games etc. The problem is there's not enough Millennials (my generation) getting into pinball to sustain the rate of growth that home ownership has seen over the last 15-20 years. Gen Z will never prop up pinball - everyone knows this. But, the Millennials will keep it niche after the market collapses.

I'd give it until 2030 when you'll start to hear things like Stern starting to cut back on production, prices for old games start coming down, so that'll be past it's peak and then it's all down hill from there. Who knows what will happen but buyers will dry up.

It's all very good saying there's X amount of youngsters in competitions but as many people have already stated, there's simply not enough exposure of pins our in the wild for youngers to get into it. Plus the world is just totally different now anyway, with technology and the internet etc. It's hard to even find a decent bowling alley these days, never mind pinball.

I think your glimpse of the future may well be quite prescient.

Will be interesting to see in the US ,where they are extremely popular right now , how the barcade / taproom with pins and vids side of things holds up. Currently even the smallest of cities / towns there seems to have several . How long does that trend last ?

We are arguably at peak craft beer now too. Market is saturated. Everything has its limit . Seeing smaller craft breweries falling by the wayside as there are just too many chasing the the same drinkers.

Interesting times on a burning planet .

 

[russdx1]

I stand by my original prediction. Pinball has had a bumpy ride with ups and downs but nostalgia has driven it back up every time. Once we are all gone there wont be enough people left who care or remember it. It will always be around as those crazy old vintage arcade machines that the odd person will have been left by there dad but absolutely will not be mainstream and no company will be able to make money selling them so there wont be any new games.

 

[Sam C]

This is a hilarious post that I see here and pinside that gets brought up by LOTS of people in the older generation who think it's going to die with them.

It really isn't and you're kidding yourself if you think it is. Lots of younger people into pinball. As others have said you only have to step into tournaments and see the plethora of teens, 20 somethings and 30 somethings etc playing. The hobby will not die off just because a particular generation shuffles off the mortal coil.

 

[russdx1]

This is a hilarious post that I see here and pinside that gets brought up by LOTS of people in the older generation who think it's going to die with them.

It really isn't and you're kidding yourself if you think it is. Lots of younger people into pinball. As others have said you only have to step into tournaments and see the plethora of teens, 20 somethings and 30 somethings etc playing. The hobby will not die off just because a particular generation shuffles off the mortal coil.

Are they players or collectors? as its the collectors who buy the machines and keep the manufactures in this hobby alive.

 

[VeeMonroe]

This is a hilarious post that I see here and pinside that gets brought up by LOTS of people in the older generation who think it's going to die with them.

It really isn't and you're kidding yourself if you think it is. Lots of younger people into pinball. As others have said you only have to step into tournaments and see the plethora of teens, 20 somethings and 30 somethings etc playing. The hobby will not die off just because a particular generation shuffles off the mortal coil.

Yeah, I have this book:

Pinball: A Graphic History of the Silver Ball: Amazon.co.uk: Chad, Jon: 9781250249210: Books

Buy Pinball: A Graphic History of the Silver Ball 1 by Chad, Jon (ISBN: 9781250249210) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.

www.amazon.co.uk

Pinball in its current form has been around since at the 1930s and has survived, not only a world war, but also the rise of arcade games and being banned for years in the States. I doubt a bunch of boomers dying off is going to make a whit of difference.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

This is a hilarious post that I see here and pinside that gets brought up by LOTS of people in the older generation who think it's going to die with them.

It really isn't and you're kidding yourself if you think it is. Lots of younger people into pinball. As others have said you only have to step into tournaments and see the plethora of teens, 20 somethings and 30 somethings etc playing. The hobby will not die off just because a particular generation shuffles off the mortal coil.

Will those same 20 / 30 somethings be into it enough to be dropping 10k on pins for their home though ? The economic outlook short to middle term is a gloomy one at best - I would imagine money and a home for pinball machines will be a struggle for many. Certainly more than it was for me a couple decades ago buying a house and my first pin.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

I doubt a bunch of boomers dying off is going to make a whit of difference.

Even though they are the ones that own the bulk of the used machines and have the disposable cash and space for them ? Who will be buying all these machines ? Of course they will still physically exist in the world but imagine the market will be very different to the current one. We are already seeing how an economic shock can impact the prices and sales of non essential big toys, and without starting to freak out the future is looking far from rosy unfortunately.

 

[David_Vi]

Pinball in its current form has been around since at the 1930s and has survived, not only a world war, but also the rise of arcade games and being banned for years in the States. I doubt a bunch of boomers dying off is going to make a whit of difference.

I disagree. Entertainment has changed drastically in the past 30 years. People have been exposed to pinball on location in every decade, that's been constant, till recently. 30-40 years ago there was little home entertainment, now we have consoles, smart devices etc.

I'm not saying pinball will die totally but it certainly won't be the same without the collectors who grew up with them.


You really think the next generations are going to collect these massive toys to the extent the previous generations have? Most of the current generations can't even afford their rent let alone a house with room for expensive toys.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

I disagree. Entertainment has changed drastically in the past 30 years. People have been exposed to pinball on location in every decade, that's been constant, till recently. 30-40 years ago there was little home entertainment, now we have consoles, smart devices etc.

I'm not saying pinball will die totally but it certainly won't be the same without the collectors who grew up with them.


You really think the next generations are going to collect these massive toys to the extent the previous generations have? Most of the current generations can't even afford their rent let alone a house with room for expensive toys.

I think The Who said it best ....'Hope I die before I get old'

 

[russdx1]

I kinda hope I’ll still be alive in 40 years time, I’ll report back then what the market is like

 

[David_Vi]

I believe most of my games will be worth next to nothing in 20/30 years

Probably be using them for firewood considering the state of the planet