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How long does pinball have left?

It's an interesting discussion, but predicting the future is harder than making pinball. I remember the overwhelming feeling back in the early - mid 2000s was that pinball was on it's last legs and would soon be done for good, and it wasn't hard to believe that was the case with some of the machines Stern was putting out at the time. I don't think anyone then would have predicted that people would be spending £16k on NIB LE machines in 2023 but here we are.

I'm 36 for a few more weeks and I guess that puts me on the younger side of the hobby. I caught the very tail end of common location pinball in the early / mid 90s and my dad would always try to get me playing the pins whenever we were at an arcade or bowling alley. Years later when I was 18 we'd had a few beers one evening and somehow got onto the topic of those arcade visits. That in turn led us to wondering what had happened to pinball, which led us to eBay, and before we knew it a TZ arrived and an obsession was born. My dad is now in his 70s and my parents have downsized so he no longer has room for pins, but I live relatively close to him and have given his last two games a home along with mine. I hope similar stories repeat amongst the younger generations who are ending up playing on location nowadays. I'm fairly confident it will in the States and Europe, but over here we'll have to see.

Anecdotally, outside of the hobby I have one mate with his own machine, and another who enjoys playing when he comes here. The rest of them really aren't that interested - they might play the odd game when I get something new but it's not something they come back to or have any interest in owning. One common theme is a preference for the 90s games which are easier to understand. We're all late 30s to early 40s and none of them really do social media, but a good number of them seem to be semi-permanently online on PS5.

One thing I will say though is that if some of the more pessimistic predictions in this thread turn out to be correct then I'm going to need to find a lot more space for all these bargain games I'll be buying in 20 years time.
 
Just played Rush pro again today- great game and the music has grown on me a bit. Got talking to the manager of Dirty Habit in sunny Whitley Bay and even he’s surprised how popular the machine is with punters. 🎩 🎩 off to @Parallax Digital for putting some new Stern LCD’s around the NE. If you build it they will come…
 
Just played Rush pro again today- great game and the music has grown on me a bit. Got talking to the manager of Dirty Habit in sunny Whitley Bay and even he’s surprised how popular the machine is with punters. 🎩 🎩 off to @Parallax Digital for putting some new Stern LCD’s around the NE. If you build it they will come…
Yeah I’ve enjoyed the one on Brighton pier - fortunately can’t hear the music too much 😁

Tbf I can just about handle some Rush, first album is listenable . A couple of the hits. I would never ever choose to listen to them though. Also please never tell anyone I said this .
 
Yeah I’ve enjoyed the one on Brighton pier - fortunately can’t hear the music too much 😁

Tbf I can just about handle some Rush, first album is listenable . A couple of the hits. I would never ever choose to listen to them though. Also please never tell anyone I said this .
Working Man and Spirit of Radio get selected a lot- the rest is not my thing but I can appreciate them and fine to listen to when playing pinball
 
The issue is that, in ten years, all those young people hogging the Star Wars Pro in Gravity are going to be at the life stage to move out to Essex/Kent to start a family and they'll be the ones phoning Williams Amusements (or equivalent) looking to buy a vintage Stern.

I get that Vee, what I'm disputing is your definition of 'All those'. I think it has become a minuscule number comparatively.

Let's just say for arguments sake that 1% of people who play pinball end up purchasing one as an adult.

How can the net number possibly compete with generations who played them in pubs, youth clubs, chip shops and service stations when there was naff all else to do apart from play conkers and knockdown ginger?

Funnily enough I was at a service station today for a clandestine meeting with Davey Stumblor. All the kids were eating KFC and playing on their phones. My generation were eating Kentucky Fried Chicken and begging their parents for 10p to put in the pinball machines (for which there was often a queue). I haven't seen a pinball machine in a service station for a very long time.

There's probably an equation somewhere for the smarter minds on the forum.

Number of publicly playable pinball machines, people playing pinball per capita, duration of play during child and teenage years. Chuck that lot of statistics into the mixer and you'd probably have your answer at the back end in terms of pinball purchasing which will ultimately decide.

I don't think this is really about whether pinball lives or dies. Just whether it shrinks or grows and ultimately money will decide whether the makers of NIB are still turning a profit in 20-30 years.

I think it might have been Sam or Kirk who said earlier that 'pinball doesn't make a profit'. . . . well it used to. I've had people on the chinwag tell me that a machine used to pay for itself within the first year and the rest was profit.

Tilt can offset it's pinball losses with its excellent range of craft ales and other revenue streams. Chief makes lovely coffee and pastries. The chaps have diversified their business to to incorporate their hobbies which is great because they're enthusiasts.

However that means very little to a hard nosed businessman. Do pinball machines make enough coin to pay the rent, business rates and wages? They used to.

And that's one of the main reasons it's a niche enthusiasts hobby and no longer mainstream.
 
Knockdown ginger ?

Bullying red haired people hopefully isn't a thing anymore

In Brizzle we call it Knockout Ginger, but I’m pretty sure we are the only weirdos that refer to it as that. More common is knock knock
Ginger I think, but my Mrs ensures me it’s knock a door run
 
I think it might have been Sam or Kirk who said earlier that 'pinball doesn't make a profit'. . . . well it used to. I've had people on the chinwag tell me that a machine used to pay for itself within the first year and the rest was profit.

Tilt can offset it's pinball losses with its excellent range of craft ales and other revenue streams. Chief makes lovely coffee and pastries. The chaps have diversified their business to to incorporate their hobbies which is great because they're enthusiasts.

However that means very little to a hard nosed businessman. Do pinball machines make enough coin to pay the rent, business rates and wages? They used to.

And that's one of the main reasons it's a niche enthusiasts hobby and no longer mainstream.

Pinball alone has never made a profit even in its heyday... They were always part of a bigger arcade.

Operators who put them in pubs operated out of industrial units with minimal overheads and no rates hence making that type of business viable.

These days its how you class profitable... If you aim to run a pinball as the primary source of income on the highstreet you're going to get your ass handed to you.

But if its a secondary source of revenue it can be profitable if you don't rely on the income day to day...

Example

£8595 for Godzilla
£1432.50 claimed back in Vat
£7162.50 to break even...

So an average machine can take £300 to £500 a month so meeting the middle it takes 17 months to break even than anything passed that is profit.

Pinball and arcades are highly viable by creating an offering before the pinball... and I think there is huge potential nationwide for these types of businesses.

I took my idea from visiting barcades in America and asking myself why don't we have that
 
Number of publicly playable pinball machines, people playing pinball per capita, duration of play during child and teenage years. Chuck that lot of statistics into the mixer and you'd probably have your answer at the back end in terms of pinball purchasing which will ultimately decide.
That's flawed though - one of the assumptions being thrown around in this thread that is ignoring selection bias. Out of 10000 random people in the public, N are potential pinheads (interested, enough £. enough space). You only need to expose that small % to pinball, not the rest. If we can find a way to get them to play enough games to "get it", that's enough to keep the hobby alive. No need to have millions putting coins in pub machines. With the social media gubbins these days it's much easier to target a specific audience.
 
Pinball alone has never made a profit even in its heyday... They were always part of a bigger arcade.

Operators who put them in pubs operated out of industrial units with minimal overheads and no rates hence making that type of business viable.

These days its how you class profitable... If you aim to run a pinball as the primary source of income on the highstreet you're going to get your ass handed to you.

But if its a secondary source of revenue it can be profitable if you don't rely on the income day to day...

Example

£8595 for Godzilla
£1432.50 claimed back in Vat
£7162.50 to break even...

So an average machine can take £300 to £500 a month so meeting the middle it takes 17 months to break even than anything passed that is profit.

Pinball and arcades are highly viable by creating an offering before the pinball... and I think there is huge potential nationwide for these types of businesses.

I took my idea from visiting barcades in America and asking myself why don't we have that


And what you've done is very well executed and very polished . . . same for Chief.
 
That's flawed though - one of the assumptions being thrown around in this thread that is ignoring selection bias. Out of 10000 random people in the public, N are potential pinheads (interested, enough £. enough space). You only need to expose that small % to pinball, not the rest. If we can find a way to get them to play enough games to "get it", that's enough to keep the hobby alive. No need to have millions putting coins in pub machines. With the social media gubbins these days it's much easier to target a specific audience.


I've no doubt the equation is flawed mate, hence my mention of someone with a bigger brain than mine to figure it out.

As for the latter, I've tried it. . . I have literally presented pinball to a sports audience.

On my sports YouTube channels we get about a million views per month from around 65,000 subscribers. There's other things like Twitter & Tiktok that have similar numbers. I have shown pinball on it several times and broadcast in front of the machines daily. There is even a link to the pinball channel to make it easy. I can track where traffic comes from and aside from one bloke watching a video and coming to pinfest there has been no trickle of people to the pinball.


Funnily enough I did actually target a particular demographic with two recent pinball videos. I targeted males above 18 who had been using the following keyword searches and associated semantics. Retro gaming, arcade games, retro arcade, classic games, jukebox restorations, and a few others but you get the idea. Here's what happened 👇👇👇👇

Screenshot (19).jpg


Frustratingly when I further explored what these new subscribers were searching on YouTube, it transpired that I'd not converted anyone . . . . . they were all watching pinball videos anyway 😂😂


Screenshot (21).jpg

Firstly I'm unconvinced that targeting niche demographics to harvest potential pinball hobbyists would even work. I do know that it would require a significant outlay and SEO strategy that would not produce a financial return.
 
I've no doubt the equation is flawed mate, hence my mention of someone with a bigger brain than mine to figure it out.

As for the latter, I've tried it. . . I have literally presented pinball to a sports audience.

On my sports YouTube channels we get about a million views per month from around 65,000 subscribers. There's other things like Twitter & Tiktok that have similar numbers. I have shown pinball on it several times and broadcast in front of the machines daily. There is even a link to the pinball channel to make it easy. I can track where traffic comes from and aside from one bloke watching a video and coming to pinfest there has been no trickle of people to the pinball.


Funnily enough I did actually target a particular demographic with two recent pinball videos. I targeted males above 18 who had been using the following keyword searches and associated semantics. Retro gaming, arcade games, retro arcade, classic games, jukebox restorations, and a few others but you get the idea. Here's what happened 👇👇👇👇

View attachment 225591


Frustratingly when I further explored what these new subscribers were searching on YouTube, it transpired that I'd not converted anyone . . . . . they were all watching pinball videos anyway 😂😂


View attachment 225624

Firstly I'm unconvinced that targeting niche demographics to harvest potential pinball hobbyists would even work. I do know that it would require a significant outlay and SEO strategy that would not produce a financial return.
Well, I know your stats may not show it, but showing pinball to a sports audience does work at raising awareness. I was talking to someone involved in creative writing and mentioned I play pinball, explaining it was a small community. They said, “do you know @gonzo?” I said, “Yeah, sort of” and that I knew you from the PinballInto forums and had bumped into you a couple of times in RL. It turned out they were a West Ham fan who knew you also created pinball content :)

As they’d been trying to argue that online communities DID NOT WORK the way I was describing, I won that particular argument 😈
 
It's tough and getting location buy-in is really the challenge as many managers or operators have not been exposed to the joys of pinball

Hate the stereotyping but middle aged men, beer, and pinball seem to go together - about to start working to get out and about with the operating side a bit more, but waiting for our new LCD toppers, which should hopefully be ready in a couple of weeks, or at least the first 2 protos - with a content management system running I am hoping we can expand the use of the tables for other rev streams and offsetting the costs of the machines - it is only the re-sale values that make this semi-viable at the moment

DH is a good example though of the machine driving additional wet trade - that is a key point to communicate to locations too

J
 
What’s baffling to me is @Pick Holder is a talented sound engineer and loves Rush ..😂
And a semi pro musician for years.

Rush is a sleeper machine
Aersosmith was a sleeper machine - now loads of people want it!
Turtles (Stern) is the same - now people wnat it......

Funny how all three are Borg games!

Pinball is getting too expensive for 'the average Joe' - gone are the days I get called out to a 3 bed semi with a single pinball in one of the rooms. Most of my customers have three machines on average and some kind of man cave/garage etc.

Why would a business put in a pinball machine as @Tilt_Birmingham said? They may as well stick in an upright video game that would be a couple of grand and not need maintance or stop taking money as a ball got stuck.

The future of pinball is simple - a rich man's toy.
 
Do americans have a lot more disposable income?
84% of their country’s wealth is tied to the top 20% of earners. The bottom 40% of their population account for 0.3% of their wealth 😬. I teach about this stuff but here’s an interesting chart illustrating how out of wack unskilled pay to CEO pay / wage inequality is from country to country. USA is the largest outlier in the world. Wonder who’s buying all the Venom LE’s?IMG_2098.png
 
84% of their country’s wealth is tied to the top 20% of earners. The bottom 40% of their population account for 0.3% of their wealth 😬. I teach about this stuff but here’s an interesting chart illustrating how out of wack unskilled pay to CEO pay / wage inequality is from country to country. USA is the largest outlier in the world. Wonder who’s buying all the Venom LE’s?View attachment 225671
This basically means that your average US CEO earns 70 times more than an unskilled US worker
 
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