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Flipper stuck
- Thread starter Bobbdobalina
- Start date
OP
OP
Expensive but a necessary evil by the sound of it!
Hello,
Re. the upper flipper, I think you could narrow down the drive problem using the Flipper Test section. The Power and Hold windings of the coil have separate driver circuits, which operate together to flip, with the hold left On to keep the flipper raised. In the test, the windings are operated independently, to show which side may be faulty. The hold drive can move the flipper, but not by more than a twitch, while the power drive does move the flipper, but not at full strength. You could set it to 'repeat' for the upper flipper power winding, and check through the circuit, connectors, etc, while it pulses. It does start allowing more time between pulses if left running, though. The power windings have a two-stage drive, with the heavier load on the large TIP 36C transistors at the top of the board, attached to a heat sink. The button switches have no part in this test.
Re. the upper flipper, I think you could narrow down the drive problem using the Flipper Test section. The Power and Hold windings of the coil have separate driver circuits, which operate together to flip, with the hold left On to keep the flipper raised. In the test, the windings are operated independently, to show which side may be faulty. The hold drive can move the flipper, but not by more than a twitch, while the power drive does move the flipper, but not at full strength. You could set it to 'repeat' for the upper flipper power winding, and check through the circuit, connectors, etc, while it pulses. It does start allowing more time between pulses if left running, though. The power windings have a two-stage drive, with the heavier load on the large TIP 36C transistors at the top of the board, attached to a heat sink. The button switches have no part in this test.
OP
OP
Thanks for this but I think it is a bit beyond me I think.
OP
OP
Hi, I checked the flipper optos on the edge switch matrix and you were right!
The bottom right flipper lit up solid but the top right was flickering.
Looked at the opto boards and the new one was actually on the left, so I swapped them over and and tested again and both show solid lights now.
I’ll swap the left in due course but obviously the left doesn’t need the upper flipper switch as there isn’t one on the left.
So balls back in ready fora game and the upper right flipper works perfect…. For about 2 games then zilch, dead again!
Went back to edge switch test and still showing solid lights!
Thought I’d look to make sure my soldering is hold up and it all looks fine.
However the upper right coil is red hot whereas the two lower coils are warm!
Is this pointing to the fliptronic board again? As I’m now thinking the reason the old coil had died!
Sttng just keeps on giving
Hi. I've never had a fliptronics board problem, so don't know too much about them. A hot flipper coil could be caused by dodgy flipper optos, or by the flipper mechanism not running freely. I would have another quick check that the plunger is moving smoothly and would also clean the flipper button optos with a cotton bud. You could also check the DC voltage coming from the opto board - I think it's 12v with button not pressed, < 1v with button pressed (check SW1 / SW2 on J1 connector).
I had a similar problem and ended up changing the flipper optos - not sure yours is the same, but it's worth checking.
I had a similar problem and ended up changing the flipper optos - not sure yours is the same, but it's worth checking.
OP
OP
Hi, I’ve got a new flipper opto on the right hand side now and just ordered another for the left from pinball mania.
So my untrained thinking is that the coil is staying energized or there’s some kind of resistance which is making the coil work harder. Is that correct?
Hi, sorry, I missed that you had already fitted a new opto board. Yes, I think that coils overheat when they are receiving power for too long or too often. You could check that the coil is wired correctly and maybe check some of the ideas on pinwiki :-
www.pinwiki.com
If you've got another machine, you could try swapping the fliptronic boards. Hopefully, someone cleverer than me will be along with some more ideas.
Williams WPC - PinWiki
If you've got another machine, you could try swapping the fliptronic boards. Hopefully, someone cleverer than me will be along with some more ideas.
OP
OP
Unfortunately I’ve not got another pinball to try it in.Hi, sorry, I missed that you had already fitted a new opto board. Yes, I think that coils overheat when they are receiving power for too long or too often. You could check that the coil is wired correctly and maybe check some of the ideas on pinwiki :-
Williams WPC - PinWiki
If you've got another machine, you could try swapping the fliptronic boards. Hopefully, someone cleverer than me will be along with some more ideas.
I must be missing something with the flipper opto board.
Whereabouts are you @Bobbdobalina maybe if there's someone local they could pop over and give you a hand?
OP
OP
Hi, I’m in Nottingham but unfortunately got a house full of covid.
What’s confusing me is……
Upper flipper would only work very ,very weakly now and then.
Tested coil and it had open circuit on the larger winding.
Changed coil when rebuilt the flipper.
Flipper worked fine for 5 mins. Then stopped.
Checked switch matrix and upper flipper dot was flickering.
That means dodgy flipper opto.
Changed opto to new one and the dot on the matrix was solid.
Played game and the flipper worked fine again for 5 mins then stopped.
Checked switch matrix and dot is solid still.
I then felt the coil and it’ was red hot whereas the bottom 2 coils are just warm.
I’m not confident to start testing transistors etc at board level etc although I did prove the fuses on the fliptronic board.
Confused…..
Does the flipper start to work again once the coil cools down? I was wondering whether a wrongly adjusted EOS switch could cause the coil to overheat - I know that fliptronics flippers don't use the EOS switch to swap from full power to holding power, but I think they reactivate the coil if they detect the EOS switch being released. If the EOS switch is badly adjusted, could the coil become repeatedly reactivated while a ball is being held?
This is more of a question than a suggestion - hopefully someone will be able to advise.
This is more of a question than a suggestion - hopefully someone will be able to advise.
Fliptronic II seems to have a limit on a flipper 'chattering'. A brand-new Getaway that I unpacked had an open-circuit secondary flipper winding, and it would flip twice before then turning off. So one instance of the end of stroke closing again with the button pressed (as with a heavy 'fold-back' impact on a raised flipper) will be accepted, but not more.
OP
OP
Maybe, sounds plausible to me. I’ll have
maybe sounds plausible. I’m back at the machine tomorrow and will look at the eos switch
OP
OP
That fits the symptoms!
Half of the original problem very weak flipper has now I’m confident been sorted by changing the coil.
I really think it’s opto/ fliptronic related .
I’m back at the machine tomorrow.
Thanks for the suggestion
The flipper is going weak/failing due to too much current being drawn through the coil in order to make the flipper operate, the coil expands causing it to bind with the pawl that is supposed to pass cleanly through the centre of the coil. Hence weak, failing flipper.
First put the game in switch test.
Manually lift the affected flipper up and check that the End of Stroke (EOS) Switch is working. It appears on the side of the matrix along with the flipper button presses. You can manually check the other flippers at the same time to confirm everything is working correctly.
Next check that there is slight up and down movement on the flipper shaft through the playfield by pulling / pushing the flipper. This checks that the plastic through the playfield brushing is not the cause of binding. If there is no free movement then once the brushing heats up and expands it binds. If you play the game you can check this again after it has gone weak, there would be no up/down movement on the flipper.
If none of the above then you're most likely looking at a locked on flipper transistor on the fliptronic board or broken connector (possible hairline solder break). I'd send the board off to someone to look at. As advised earlier, you should be able to test using the solenoid test or flipper test. Use the repeat mode and see if the flipper stays up (eg locked on). I would expect it to the the hold winding rather than the Power winding. Oh and remember to engage the playfield power switch, bottom left inside the coin door.
Another thought is just to reseat all the connectors on the fliptronic board in case it is just oxidisation causing the issue. Make sure the game is switched off and make sure they go back on correctly or you may end up doing more damage. Double and triple check, very easy to put back on 1 pin out.
First put the game in switch test.
Manually lift the affected flipper up and check that the End of Stroke (EOS) Switch is working. It appears on the side of the matrix along with the flipper button presses. You can manually check the other flippers at the same time to confirm everything is working correctly.
Next check that there is slight up and down movement on the flipper shaft through the playfield by pulling / pushing the flipper. This checks that the plastic through the playfield brushing is not the cause of binding. If there is no free movement then once the brushing heats up and expands it binds. If you play the game you can check this again after it has gone weak, there would be no up/down movement on the flipper.
If none of the above then you're most likely looking at a locked on flipper transistor on the fliptronic board or broken connector (possible hairline solder break). I'd send the board off to someone to look at. As advised earlier, you should be able to test using the solenoid test or flipper test. Use the repeat mode and see if the flipper stays up (eg locked on). I would expect it to the the hold winding rather than the Power winding. Oh and remember to engage the playfield power switch, bottom left inside the coin door.
Another thought is just to reseat all the connectors on the fliptronic board in case it is just oxidisation causing the issue. Make sure the game is switched off and make sure they go back on correctly or you may end up doing more damage. Double and triple check, very easy to put back on 1 pin out.
OP
OP
That’s a great run through of possible causes. I’ll go through that tomorrow.
And thanks for the power switch reminder, as I did this test yesterday and nothing happened! And the daft thing is I’ve got the yellow clip and googled what it was for when I originally got the machine!
The strange thing I found about owning pinball is that I’m enjoying the faults and fixing them the same if not slightly more than playing the damn thing
Thanks for the info
If it was working before, even weak, its unlikely (but not impossible) that it is the optos or fliptronics board. Most likely is not enough end float (can you pull the flipper up & down 1-2mm) or the end stop is misaligned.
Do the easy stuff before you go any further and certainly suspect the fliptronic board last.
Do the easy stuff before you go any further and certainly suspect the fliptronic board last.
The yellow clip, eh? A special tool to close the power interlock, that purposely can't be left in place permanently. I used to change the interlock switch, for the type where the white plunger can be pulled further out, closing the contacts again. Was the 'chip fork' with it, too? Used to gap the vertical movement of the flipper assembly, by inserting it between the upper surface of the crank/pawl and the bottom of the plastic bush. Again, often not bothered with once a tech has set up a few units.
OP
OP
No mate, it hasn’t worked since I got it. Only randomly with a couple of weak movements then nothing again.
I’ll go and check the flipper position again as I initially got this wrong after I 1st rebuilt the flipper Monday,
Did you change the end stops ? Does the flipper stick with the game powered down (if you move it with your hand)?
Have you left a gap on the flipper shaft and the plungers? The flippers when the playfield is down should be able to move 1-2mm up and down (vertically) - Ideally just over 1mm.
Have you left a gap on the flipper shaft and the plungers? The flippers when the playfield is down should be able to move 1-2mm up and down (vertically) - Ideally just over 1mm.
OP
OP
Hi, thanks for commenting. I rebuilt the flipper with an entire new kit with end stop. I also changed the flipper bushing as well.
I’m going to check tomorrow if there’s the 1-2mm play vertically.
I initially installed the flipper too close to the playfield which meant the plunger wasn’t square to the coil.
I’ve rectified this after another member pointed it out. So the flipper no longer sticks and moves freely.
The problem is now the top right flipper doesn’t work at all.
I’ve described the problem and the symptoms a couple of posts up.
Your input is much appreciated
A few things to try:
- clean the optos on the flipper switches, in my experience the get dirty but don‘t break that often. Symptoms as described by you, hot coil as it is pulsed constantly, weak flipper, blinking switch in switch test
- make absolutely sure you haven‘t switched the hold and power coil on your rebuild. Easy to do, will yield a weak flip and a toasty coil as the power winding will be on constantly.
The EOS isn‘t really needed on WPC, the Fliptronic does this automatically and compensates for broken switches.
- clean the optos on the flipper switches, in my experience the get dirty but don‘t break that often. Symptoms as described by you, hot coil as it is pulsed constantly, weak flipper, blinking switch in switch test
- make absolutely sure you haven‘t switched the hold and power coil on your rebuild. Easy to do, will yield a weak flip and a toasty coil as the power winding will be on constantly.
The EOS isn‘t really needed on WPC, the Fliptronic does this automatically and compensates for broken switches.
My experience begs to differ, they can cause a lot of issues.
OK, in what way? Only problem you have with a broken EOS is that the pin can‘t recognize the flipper being pushed down and re-energize the power coil - but that‘s not a real issue. You can obviously have mechanical issues involving the EOS.
On WPC? Fliptronic compensates for a non closing EOS by switching the power coil off after a time - there are drawbacks as noted above but the flipper will work. Problem if it closes way too early but that is very obvious.
Fair point with the reset though…
Fair point with the reset though…
