Switching broadband provider, any thoughts?

Neil McRae

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Ahahahaha total bull**** awards! I smell Network envy

Go read the proper tests from P3 (Umlat) and Rootmetrics! Not one of those i got twenty of my mates to fill out a form nonsense!









Twice as fast as Voda and I spend less money #winning


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Neil McRae

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Depends on how far you want to send it.....

Officially, cat5 will go 100mb, Cat5e 1Gb up to 100m.... Cat6 10Gb for 55m....
Real world can find that things are better or worse depending on your own individual setup....
I’d be amazed if you have cat5 anyway likely to. Be cat 5e which I recommend over cat6 if you are doing the install yourself.


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Neil McRae

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But as soon as you step outside of that then you get zero.... Depends on circumstances....



Problem is the pure size of the BT network.... to fibre every single premise is a massive job - i would be surprised to see copper out of BT network before 2040...
Don’t understand the first point?

We’ve done 3M homes in less than two years another 20M to go! Nobody has or is building fibre quicker than us and we aren’t even upto full speed yet!


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Paul

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Don’t understand the first point?
Once you wlak outside your house, all your FTTP is completel pointless. At lerast tethered to a mobile network you can take it with you...

We’ve done 3M homes in less than two years another 20M to go! Nobody has or is building fibre quicker than us and we aren’t even upto full speed yet!
Thats because no-one is building fibre for the domestic Market (Excluding Virgin who are just completely pointless when it cones to network expansion)....

I’d be amazed if you have cat5 anyway likely to. Be cat 5e which I recommend over cat6 if you are doing the install yourself.


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Why???
1600022020777.png

Same cable, more twists! Cant understand why (other than cost which is about 20% more..) Would be unusual to have a run of more than 55m within a standard domestic house....
 

PBrookfield

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Same cable, more twists!
That's a bit like saying the only difference between Cat 5e/Cat6 and a plain eight-conductor wire is that the Cat 5e/6 twists a few pairs around each other.

Not only does it make a real-world difference to the maximum possible throughput on the cables, the tighter twisting on Cat6 means that it fundamentally requires more copper per meter than Cat 5, so that's part of it. It's not thinner gauge wire, as you've already noticed!
 

Paul

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That's a bit like saying the only difference between Cat 5e/Cat6 and a plain eight-conductor wire is that the Cat 5e/6 twists a few pairs around each other.

Not only does it make a real-world difference to the maximum possible throughput on the cables, the tighter twisting on Cat6 means that it fundamentally requires more copper per meter than Cat 5, so that's part of it. It's not thinner gauge wire, as you've already noticed!
As i said then - More Twists!! :D
 

PBrookfield

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As i said then - More Twists!! :D
Hah - well in regards to the advice of Cat5e versus Cat6, I'd say it's because the average person is going to have a hard time now, or in the future, keeping a 1Gbps cable saturated enough of the time to justify the cost uptick in using Cat6.

Of course if you're someone that knows you're going to need more than 1Gbps often enough to pay the extra, then it makes sense.
 
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Sako-TRG

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For professional copper installations we will only put in CAT6a:
Cat6a Ethernet cable - 500MHz 100m @ 10GBASE-T
Of course run it to max 100m including the CAT6a patch leads, only use CAT6a patch panels with data modules terminated properly.
That way you get the full 10gig.
Print off the fluke report and sign it off.
 

Sako-TRG

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Hah - well in regards to the advice of Cat5e versus Cat6, I'd say it's because the average person is going to have a hard time now, or in the future, keeping a 1Gbps cable saturated enough of the time to justify the cost uptick in using Cat6.

Of course if you're someone that knows you're going to need more than 1Gbps often enough to pay the extra, then it makes sense.
It makes sense if your spending money on Wave 2 upwards WAPs:-
The wireless standards of 802.11 ac + 802.11 ax have multi gigabit throughput over-the airwaves on 2.4 and 5 GHz frequencies. Therefore if you have a single CAT5e running to your network switch from these WAPs over a significant length - there’s your bottleneck.
 
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PBrookfield

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It makes sense if your spending money on Wave 2 upwards WAPs:-
The wireless standards of 802.11 ac + 802.11 ax have multi gigabit throughput over-the airwaves on 2.4 and 5 GHz frequencies. Therefore if you have a single CAT5e running to your network switch from these WAPs over a significant length - there’s your bottleneck.
I know it's trivial to saturate a single gigabit. But the problem is that for a lot of people, the biggest bottlenecks are the devices themselves.

People that have SANs and route uncompressed video over the networks aren't who I refer to as 'average person'. At the moment to use an example, Netflix uses up an average of 15Mbps for a 4K stream. Can't imagine that will increase in the future so much.

For things like backups and Steam downloads etc. those for many people are infrequent, and quite likely they'll be bottlenecked by the storage medium first, and not so much that it would justify the cost for many people. Obviously for non-home use and for people that could actually name something they'd want to do that would be impacted by gigabit cabling, then it's an obvious choice to pay the cost.

And fools like me that are just flat-out into tech porn, we know what we'd do.


EDIT: Though I appreciate the idea of using the headroom for insurance against less-than-ideal conditions. When you're doing installations for other people, it makes 100% complete sense. But if you're doing it for yourself, you're in control of that.
 
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Pick Holder

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Personally now I am getting 100meg download and (tonight) 30 upload - I can not think why you actually need anything faster - as Mr @PBrookfield says - a 4K TV stream doesnt take more than 15mbs. I transfer music project data and WAV files for sessions I do and they do not take that long to down and upload....


Seriously - how fast do you need to download porn ? :)

Or do you want to run 4K cameras in everyroom of your home and want to watch them real time? Not likely.

How fast do you need internet to be?

 

ChrisH

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I know it's trivial to saturate a single gigabit. But the problem is that for a lot of people, the biggest bottlenecks are the devices themselves.

People that have SANs and route uncompressed video over the networks aren't who I refer to as 'average person'. At the moment to use an example, Netflix uses up an average of 15Mbps for a 4K stream. Can't imagine that will increase in the future so much.

For things like backups and Steam downloads etc. those for many people are infrequent, and quite likely they'll be bottlenecked by the storage medium first, and not so much that it would justify the cost for many people. Obviously for non-home use and for people that could actually name something they'd want to do that would be impacted by gigabit cabling, then it's an obvious choice to pay the cost.

And fools like me that are just flat-out into tech porn, we know what we'd do.


EDIT: Though I appreciate the idea of using the headroom for insurance against less-than-ideal conditions. When you're doing installations for other people, it makes 100% complete sense. But if you're doing it for yourself, you're in control of that.
I've run CAT6 down to my APs (a cluster of Aruba IAP-325/315 units which are AC wave 2) and OM4 between my switches (Pre-Arbua takeover Procurves).....
1Gbps switches currently, but at least I've got headroom in the cabling if I ever want to go 10Gbps or beyond
Overkill is the best kind of kill :rofl:

CAT6 I do find more difficult to terminate into a RJ45 because of the plastic core, it took me a couple of attempts but I very rarely crimp ethernet cables these days so I'm probably just out of practice.....

To be fair to Gigaclear the service is pretty much spot on - 900Mbps up and down through the firewall interfaces, and similar on any wired devices, and I get ~650Mbps over wireless on my X260 which is the only device I own that has a 3x3 card and antennas to match.
Reasonably impressed in the firewall in that I'm getting the throughput even with IPS enabled, I wasn't exactly stressing it on my previous 10/1 FTTC (3KM to the cab), but I thought that 900/900 might make it sweat a bit, but it's fine.

The installation was a nightmare (blocked ducts, wet ducts, roadworks), but the service is pretty decent so far.
 
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Neil McRae

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It’s not the same cable though. The wire in CAT5 is much easier to bend and shape - cat 6 typically is brittle and snaps and is a pain in the ****. So for home use self install cat5E will be good enough for their lifetime!

Neil.


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cyberkryten

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For general use, 5e is fine. If you're burying the cable or doing a new install where you're going to plaster over it, then Cat6 gives you future proofing but it is harder to work with. Must admit I paid someone to install/terminate/test all the connections at the new place as I just couldn't be ****d - my days of sitting next to a rack with a punch down tool and cable tester are well behind me :)
 

Cursaw

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I had the same issue with my internet at home BT could only offer around 1mb/s, we are less than 1 km from the box so i assume the last bit of wire is the issue. I eventually found a wireless supplier Boundless internet who i now use and get 50mb/s dl and 20mb/s ul which is fine for most people and i find that the bottleneck is quite often the sites you connect to rather than your connection speed. Not sure if its available in your area but worth a look as i have not had any issues with them
 

ianw

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My leased line update :(
Order placed Feb 2020

"
Following the rejection of Traffic management permits, now being scheduled in November, the Carrier has supplied an updated estimate schedule for milestones in delivery as follows:
TM has been booked for the 23/11 - 27/11/2020;
Fibre Jointing 12/01/2021;
Fit & Test 25/01/2021;
Openreach ECD 26/01/2021

"
 

ChrisH

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My leased line update :(
Order placed Feb 2020

"
Following the rejection of Traffic management permits, now being scheduled in November, the Carrier has supplied an updated estimate schedule for milestones in delivery as follows:
TM has been booked for the 23/11 - 27/11/2020;
Fibre Jointing 12/01/2021;
Fit & Test 25/01/2021;
Openreach ECD 26/01/2021

"
Been there done that

Either the run to the building goes a dream and the internal run gets snagged up in wayleaves or the internal run is a dream and the run to the building is a nightmare.
I think of all the installs I've been involved in only one out of about 50 has gone in completely seamlessly and to the estimated date.

Had a 60 user site on a pair of load-balanced 4G connections for standard data and a pair of DSL circuits for VoIP for about 3 months while the OpenReach guys tried to get permits approved for digging and finding a route for the fibre under Theobald's Road.
Eventually got it in, but 4 months after the date it should have been.

Had another one near Notting Hill - that one took 367 days to go live from the order being placed.....
 

stevefrith

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I switched to Vodafone, super fast broadband only £24 /month and they gave me £100 Amazon voucher. Cheaper than Sky and all seems OK with it!
 

Sako-TRG

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The wire in CAT5 is much easier to bend and shape - cat 6 typically is brittle and snaps and is a pain in the ****. So for home use self install cat5E will be good enough for their lifetime!

Neil.


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You do realise that the solid core CAT5e, CAT6, CAT6a is not supposed to be bent back and forth as you lose throughput? Any professional cabling installer of backbone horizontal runs will tell you this. The only copper cable that should be bent is the braided version - I:e Patch leads which use braided copper cores / not solid cores which is why they are used for connecting the actual devices from the patch panel or to the wall plate. You cannot snap those......

Why is CAT6 more brittle?
CAT5E solid core - 24 AWG
CAT6 solid core - 23 AWG
CAT6a solid core - 22 AWG
 
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Neil McRae

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Oh hell yes - and getting a pro cable monkey for a commercial run is absolutely what you should do.

But if you are a home bozo pretend cable monkey trying to terminate a Euro module or UTP from your shed to you broadband router end then CAT5E every time.

Cheers,
Neil.


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ChrisH

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What happens in a situation like Ian's - how is the fibre actually brought from exchange to site - same underground ducting as the copper?
I've never been involved in a more rural install, only within very central London so just interested really.

Another fun fibre install story is the one about the newly refurbed building where the guys doing the refurb decided the way to tidy up the cable riser was to fill them with about 3 foot of cement - 'It's all wireless these days, no one runs cable and we did all new the pipework before filling it'

I could be mis-remembering the details but wasn't there some really s**t stuff being flogged as CAT6 knocking about that was copper coating over aluminium core?
 

ianw

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@Neil McRae
What happens in a situation like Ian's - how is the fibre actually brought from exchange to site - same underground ducting as the copper?
I've never been involved in a more rural install, only within very central London so just interested really.
BB is poor here in Devon, Gigaclear got close to us, but no sign of anyone continuing the work

The fibre is being run in the existing road ducts and poles. Work on poles and into house ( office ;) )done, but when they lifted the duct covers, full of rural mud !! Needs to be gulley/duct cleaned then pulled.

At least its a fix price install :)
 
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Cursaw

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I am stuck with basic broadband - its now considered slow as heck. Private road, so little/no chance ever of having cable installed.
I had the same Alan, I would check to see if there are any wireless providers available as that option worked a charm for me
 

Sako-TRG

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BB is poor here in Devon, Gigaclear got close to us, but no sign of anyone continuing the work

The fibre is being run in the existing road ducts and poles. Work on poles and into house ( office ;) )done, but when they lifted the duct covers, full of rural mud !! Needs to be gulley/duct cleaned then pulled.

At least its a fix price install :)
Yeah, lucky if overhead option but with ducts also depends on the capacity within ducts
Some are absolutely jam packed with existing copper and fibre in areas/ over subscribed so no chance of pulling any more fibre through.
 

daveyp

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BB is poor here in Devon, Gigaclear got close to us, but no sign of anyone continuing the work

The fibre is being run in the existing road ducts and poles. Work on poles and into house ( office ;) )done, but when they lifted the duct covers, full of rural mud !! Needs to be gulley/duct cleaned then pulled.

At least its a fix price install :)
Two questions what does a install like this cost and a monthly cost.

And for what reason does someone need such a fast line just curious.

Dave.


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Rob zombie

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That's a good question! I upload and download hundreds of gigs every day to and from Steam, Perforce etc, Zoom, Slack, Teams running all day with video conference calls. PS4 streaming Netflix and game updates in the background and Spotify too. Kids on their tablets on Netflix etc. I don't have any issues with BT here in Cheshire. I'm very nervous about how that usage is going to translate to moving to Wales.
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