Party / UK Open Poll

[mufcmufc]

Would the pinball party be more enjoyable without the UK open there? This would leave more space for people to play in, would be more inline with promoting pinball to the general public (there were only 9 entries for the open on the day) there could still be a competition, just something on a much smaller scale

 

[BigIan]

You say there where only 9 entries for the open on the day, how many entries where made available on the day and how was it advertised ?



I know the open was a deciding factor for at least one of the guys that went from Ireland, he wanted to get some ranking points. As we only have the Irish open on the island of Ireland we need to travel to get points..



Saying that im looking to potentially organise a league in Northern Ireland much like Petes SWL league ie not touring around different locations but based at my place. Plan to talk to Pete and Greg at the welsh clasic about it.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

Dont think it would be 'more' enjoyable or 'a better experience' without the Open.



I think the Open is an added attraction to the hardcore players - it certainly brings players from Europe - and that the public that want to come will do so regardless of whether there is a tourney running . It also shows new people that pinball does have a serious/dedicated enough following to organise such things.



Most non pinheads I speak to are amazed to find out there is a thriving worldwide tournament scene with World Ranking etc. Helps to demonstrate also that it's not all a game of luck on a big toy, and that slapping a ball rnd a piece of wood actually takes a fair bit of skill. And hopefully make our insane addiction look slightly less insane

 

[Moonraker]

It's really the only chance to get everyone together in the same room at the same time with enough machines... at least in this moment in time until we have something like a HQ2 or 3 or whatever in the center of England or London (thats easy enough for everyone to get to).

 

[Moonraker]

The same question is also an ongoing discussion regarding UK league finals.... and it's the same answer as above that results.

 

[ronsplooter]

I think the Open is an added attraction to the hardcore players - it certainly brings players from Europe

Totally agree with Ive on this....it was great to see people who had travelled from abroad to attend the show. Adds to the feeling of it being a big event and if having the UK Open there makes this happen then that's a good thing. I didn't enter the UK Open this year but will definitely do so next year and having it at this type of event just makes it more exciting for me

 

[mufcmufc]

What if the open were a separate event(much like the DPO)? Or maybe in a different room? The thing that seems to affect the casual player is that they don't understand why they can't play tournament machines and most casual players don't seem to know that there is a major competition

 

[mufcmufc]

The same question is also an ongoing discussion regarding UK league finals.... and it's the same answer as above that results.

No there is a simple solution for that Peter, there always has been it's just that Greg refuses to do it. Have a roving league final through each region in turn, it's announced at the beginning of the season where the finals are - you know at the start of the season that if you make the play off places then you will be travelling to venue X to play.



So it would work something like - Yr1 Scotland, Yr2 South West, Yr3 North, Yr4 South East, Yr5 Midlands. It's quite a simple concept but one that makes sense. The finals at a big meeting with other competitions is just plain daft.

 

[mufcmufc]

You say there where only 9 entries for the open on the day, how many entries where made available on the day and how was it advertised ?

There were as many available as requested, it was announced over the PA a number of times and from memory on the open website, although no one emailed in to enquire.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

So it would work something like - Yr1 Scotland, Yr2 South West, Yr3 North, Yr4 South East, Yr5 Midlands. It's quite a simple concept but one that makes sense. The finals at a big meeting with other competitions is just plain daft.

I kind of agree it is maybe a bit much having it also on top of evrything else.



I guess though the argument FOR having it at the Party/Big Show is that there is a good chance most of the people involved will be attending anyway. The pinball calendar these days is already pretty crowded .

 

[BigIan]

Seperate room would be fine (although would incur additional cost ?)



I guess the seperate room would probably suit better for the league finals also if the roving idea doesnt work ?



It did look like a lot of people spent the entire weekend playing tournaments, while that may not be a problem for the likes of me I can see it being a problem for 'serious' players.

 

[JT.]

For me (as a non-entrant) it did not add anything to the experience, but it did mean that some of the machines I would like to have tried were not available to me, only to the tournament.

 

[BigIan]

For me (as a non-entrant) it did not add anything to the experience, but it did mean that some of the machines I would like to have tried were not available to me, only to the tournament.

A seperate room wouldnt make the machines available but you would at least not know what you were missing

 

[Wayne J]

There were as many available as requested, it was announced over the PA a number of times and from memory on the open website, although no one emailed in to enquire.

Having found out about the Open after all of the pre-entry places had been taken, I was advised (from the website and others) to get there at 10am Sat and register, if any spaces came up I was in.

Having got there at 9:30am and waiting for the doors to open so I wouldn't miss out went straight to the registration desk gave my name and told to come back at 11 to see if there would be spaces. Came back at 11 and told to come back at 11:30, went back at 11:30 and was told they weren't sure if there would be any spaces as some people hadn't played all of their games yet, and to come back at 1pm. Went back at 1pm and got my entry, played my games with only a small amount of waiting (and one accusation of cheating on FT).

The most frustrating part of it was that up to midday there were at least 3 or 4 tournament tables not in use at any one time and people who registered on the day could have played then. It seemed that a fair amount of people either arrived later in the day, had a 'warm up' on the non-tourney tables to get their eye in or wanted to wait and see what scores they had to beat.

To me it would have made more sense to allow registration up to a certain time for late entries, rather than make them wait. I wonder how many people walked away frustrated at not being able to register after the second or third time they went back to the desk and didn't go back?

 

[Wizcat]

Hello! Bit of a newbie into pinball here. From my perspective I would say you need big events like this to draw lots of new players into the pinball scene. Tournaments and the prospects of competitive ranking will likely make sure that a lot of those new players (like me!) stick around and attend the next event, and the one after that, and the one after that ...

 

[replicas]

Will be interesting to see how Northern Lights goes at Blackpool this year as this is being staged to bring pinball back to people who have not seen a pinball machine in ages or to people who have never seen a pinball machine.

There will be fun comps but no world ranking points on offer, the whole point of the show is to get pinball back into the community.

So if you just want to have some fun and play plenty of pinball machines then you know where to come. www.ukpinball.com

 

[highjon]

I think the show needs all the tournaments. The open, league, Classics & Kids. It certainly makes it more worthwhile to people who invest a huge amount of travel and expense. Dont know if some of the guys would have travelled without the carrot of the Open.

It's the "Big Show"! is how I sell it to the guys.

Will be interesting to see how the Blackpool show develops also, it could maybe accomodate league finals

 

[teachp8]

As a first-timer this year I liked the fact the competitions were on and held in the same room. It let me see that I could the Open enter next year, how good some people are at pinball and that I had better get practising. I was initially disappointed that the competition machines were unavailable for play but come Sunday morning they were all in the main area (those that hadn't gone home were anyway). I suppose if you could only make the Saturday that would have been annoying - maybe it would be worth highlighting the competition machines in publicity material and explaining when they will be available for general use. Also, I wouldn't want to see the competitions played behind close doors - I enjoyed following the players' progress.

 

[D-Type]

...gave my name and told to come back at 11 to see if there would be spaces. Came back at 11 and told to come back at 11:30, went back at 11:30 and was told they weren't sure if there would be any spaces as some people hadn't played all of their games yet, and to come back at 1pm. Went back at 1pm and got my entry, played my games with only a small amount of waiting (and one accusation of cheating on FT).

The most frustrating part of it was that up to midday there were at least 3 or 4 tournament tables not in use at any one time and people who registered on the day could have played then.

It's always good to hear feedback from people who are inexperienced regarding tournament play. That's not meant to be derogatory in anyway, the majority of entrants have played before so they know how it all works, but our goal is obviously to attract new entrants to the fun that can be had from competitive play, so feedback from new tournament players is important to us.



The first year we ran a tournament at a show (other than a simple high score system) was 2006 and it was a team tournament consisting of 13 teams of 4 players. We thought it'd take a 2 or 3 hours but it ended up taking all day and more. Now we have a more scheduled event with trophy presentations, raffles, guest presentations and such like, we don't have the option to run over time. This is especially important for overseas visitors, when they have a flight to catch - can you imagine getting into the final of a tournament, only to have to leave early to fly home? (Or have to miss your flight, which has happened before at other tournaments.)



Additionally, we're acutely aware that tournament machines are not available for free-play and we are sure to return them to the public floor when we're finished with them, which is something else we've learned is important over the years (and I believe this year they were made available on the Saturday late afternoon/evening outside tournament times). Compared with other forms of tournament that we've experienced all over the world, I think we're probably the most efficient there is regarding machine usage.



In previous years, the tournaments were pre-registration only, with no on-the-day registrations. This time we thought we'd be able to handle more entries so we added two extra machines and upped the entries to 96 pre-reg. It was likely we could handle more on the day, but we have to be a little conservative because sometimes there can be problems issues causing a late start, such as machine breakdowns/no-shows or power issues.



Tournament start delays, together with too many entries can lead to a situation where entrants don't have enough time to play their games before the qualification cut-off, this has happened before resulting in lots of arguments and it's why we state that it's the players responsibility to make sure they get their games played.



From the statistics I've gathered over years, we can reasonably well predict how many people we can get through qualification over a set amount of time, taking into account potential machine breakdowns. By monitoring the number of scores taken throughout the day, we had to make a judgement as to whether we could allow more people in and, at 1pm, I judged the number of scores was then high enough to allow more entrants. Something that also makes it harder to judge is that the league players are holed up in another room playing out the league finals, and last year they all finished in one go and suddenly we were deluged with about 20 top players all coming to play their qualifying games.

It seemed that a fair amount of people either arrived later in the day, had a 'warm up' on the non-tourney tables to get their eye in or wanted to wait and see what scores they had to beat.

From previous experience, this is as expected. When we originally put together the Open qualifying format, my greatest fear was that everyone would leave it to the last minute to qualify, once they'd seen the highest scores on all the machines, and then run out of time. Thankfully this isn't what happens in practice, early players benefit from strong flippers and unbroken machines and due to the 'challenging' tournament machine setup, it's hard to predict how good the other player's scores are.



Out of interest, here are the qualifying machine play totals (MM was out of action for a quite a while otherwise I suspect it would be higher in the list):



58 Attack from Mars

51 High Speed 2

49 Fish Tales

49 The Addams Family

45 Cirqus Voltaire

44 Indianapolis 500

43 Medieval Madness

40 Monopoly

39 Terminator 3

38 Bram Stoker's Dracula

36 Stargate

35 Mars - God of War

34 Batman Forever

33 World Poker Tour

To me it would have made more sense to allow registration up to a certain time for late entries, rather than make them wait. I wonder how many people walked away frustrated at not being able to register after the second or third time they went back to the desk and didn't go back?

Hopefully the above text explains why we can't do that. As far as I know everyone who wanted to enter did so, at the end of the day there were enough places available for anyone who wanted to take part.



We know there are many areas of the tournaments where we can improve but any feedback regarding any aspects of the tournaments is gratefully received, especially from first time entrants.

 

[D-Type]

As a first-timer this year I liked the fact the competitions were on and held in the same room. It let me see that I could the Open enter next year, how good some people are at pinball and that I had better get practising. I was initially disappointed that the competition machines were unavailable for play but come Sunday morning they were all in the main area (those that hadn't gone home were anyway). I suppose if you could only make the Saturday that would have been annoying - maybe it would be worth highlighting the competition machines in publicity material and explaining when they will be available for general use. Also, I wouldn't want to see the competitions played behind close doors - I enjoyed following the players' progress.

Consider also that some providers of tournament machines will only provide them if they are only in the tournament. We must respect their mandate and at least that saves us taking away another floor machine.

 

[bartron]

That AFM was a complete BITCH !!

then again it's still on the settings as used in IFPA6

http://www.pinballnews.com/shows/ifpa6/index.html

 

[Kate Rothwell-Jackson]

For me, I generally need some element of competition at a show to get me to want to go. I've chosen the DPO over R3play for that reason, and it's not like they are on the same level of travel distance and costs.



I like the idea of having the final at rotating regions - It's already in a separate room at the show so it's not like any of the public (or non-qualified league players) really get any benefit out of it being held at the show. When the classic is happening at the same time, it must be a rush for the better players amongst us and/or mean less time to play and enjoy the main areas machines.

When I think back to the Slam, that had a league meet incorporated in it, didn't it? so similarly some machines were made unavailable for play on the Sunday. What did people think to that? Same principle really.

 

[Moonraker]

It it a nice idea rotating the final between regions but personally I'd rather not have another date on the calendar that we have to try and get everyone together.... I do think people would drop out due to expense, travel and it being another weekend away from home; where as being at the show means your time is better utilised by including other pinballing/social activities.

 

[longsider]

I agree that the Party should have the open, I entered it but to be honest only because it was there, I would have still travelled, still took pins and still had the meal etc without the Serious comps, I did however enjoy the team event, more of a fun comp, would enter them anyday, prob wont enter serious comps again at the events.

I think the attraction is the social side and the pinball not the comps.

Northen Lights will have comps, weve shyed away from ranking points etc and would be very reluctant to have them in the future, We just want pinball to be pinball and want it to be enjoyed.

If it was league fianls etc that were to be run there the Saturday night would be ideal for them.

What we are trying to do is bring it back to the publics attention and hopefully encourage people to join the league and attend the meets.

What we are a bit concerned about is that if a total pinball novice enters a serious comp and gets say 2000 on a game then a pin pro comes along and gets 1,200,222 or whatever that guy may go away and not play the game again.

We have the PinballMania NBA Challenge on the Saturday with everyone playing head to head, we will also have a high score comp on a pin running the entire weekend for the serious enthusiast.

Saturday night is the true pinhead event which is when any serious none points comps will be held, possibly pin golf, either way there will definatly be a couple of comps to keep the enthusiast interested.

This is our first year so we are testing the water a little, we have a lot more in the pipeline which will be announced over the coming weeks, we cant say what they are but they will be just as enjoyable to the pinball novice as they will to the pro, as long as you like fun and enjoy having a laugh.

 

[pinballmania]

Many of you will know that I'm not a great supporter of the League or Ranking competitions, mainly because I don't participate. I am annoyed that machines are removed from public play and reserved for the comps/league but accept that it is a big part of the event and that those supplying the machines are doing so becasue they support the league/comps. So I think we have a position where the league/comps are a necessary 'evil' for the party.



That said, there are ways that i think the situation could be improved.



1. I don't like the way the tounament area turns it's back on the rest of the show physically. The tournaments should be part of the 'show' and you shouldn't have to feel like your walking into a resticted area to see whats going on.

2. Machines that are finished with in competitions should be immediately returned to public use, not just switched off and forgotten.

3. Prior to the competitions starting, what is wrong with letting the public have a go on them? If they're going to break, better they break prior to the competition starting. ( On Friday evening, all comp machines were switched off )

4. As the organisers mainly know what machines they are using on each day, then the fact that there may be resticted access to them on each day should be stated in the games list ( which was never posted on the ukpinballparty website ). Then if someone is making an effort to attend to play CV for example, then they can come on the day when it is not in use.

5. I'm not sure why the league machines and players have to slope off to another room to play. Why can't the games be played on the main floor amongst the general public? On the Sunday its much quieter and having a number of people around one machine is not going to be a problem. There tend to be fewer pins on a Sunday, so little extra space around the pins can soon be arranged. Between league games and afterwards, the general public can get a go in.

6. Communication and signage. There were two pins - Monster Bash, and Cactus Canyon, allocated to the 'pay per play' competition. There was no signs on these machines til late on the Saturday to this effect, so people didn't know why there were no credits on them. Why are premium pins always chosen for the 'pay per play' competitions?



If the show continues in its current form, then there needs to be more thought as to how it is perceived by the general public.



Enough ranting for now.

 

[pinballmania]

When I think back to the Slam, that had a league meet incorporated in it, didn't it? so similarly some machines were made unavailable for play on the Sunday. What did people think to that? Same principle really.

It did, but I'm not sure why they felt the need to cram themselves in the bar area when there was a huge amount of spave in the main hall. There were also a lot less people at the slam, so many more machines available to get on to. Saturday morning attendance at the party exceeded machine numbers, so lots couldn't get on pins and could only look longingly at the reserved competion machines, which were yet to start.

 

[Phil Dixon]

I think it's competitions gone mad, way too many.

1) Ditch the team tourny Friday night as it's too much to set up all of the show and then have a tourny.

2) Hold the league final Friday night if we have to, or better still, remove it and hold it at Swavesey on the Saturday (move league finish date to suit)

3) Only put machines in the open that are duplicated out on the floor

4) turn them round (as Andy says) so people can see what's going on and they can be involved better as spectators

5) Ditch the stupid "buy your finals place" Classic and make it a proper compo



Oh, whilst we are at it, the league final should be of the games: 2EM, 2SS, 2DM. They should be drawn at random from the available pool of machines.

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

I think it's competitions gone mad, way too many.

1) Ditch the team tourny Friday night as it's too much to set up all of the show and then have a tourny.



Agree. Though folk do seem to enjoy the team thing



2) Hold the league final Friday night if we have to, or better still, remove it and hold it at Swavesey on the Saturday (move league finish date to suit)



Yep - but then potentially you have same argument at Swavesey

...pins being tied up for League use instead of raising dosh for charidee.



3) Only put machines in the open that are duplicated out on the floor



Agree. And I think there are efforts to do this, certainly at the Slam it was a big consideration - problem is there usually aren't enough duplicate titles.



4) turn them round (as Andy says) so people can see what's going on and they can be involved better as spectators



Yep . Just need to make sure Joe Public is very clear of what is going on - again Andy's point about signage, roped off areas etc. I think it used to work well in the area at the Wicksteed shows.



5) Ditch the stupid "buy your finals place" Classic and make it a proper compo



Totally agree. Never understood that.



Oh, whilst we are at it, the league final should be of the games: 2EM, 2SS, 2DM. They should be drawn at random from the available pool of machines.

 

[D-Type]

So I think we have a position where the league/comps are a necessary 'evil' for the party.

I personally think that's a little strong. If I thought it was generally 'evil' and damaging the scene, then I wouldn't be involved, but I get lots of people saying they enjoy it, people who are friends that I respect, as well as people who I don't know at all, so I'm comfortable with it. That said, I'm very happy for people not to agree!

1. I don't like the way the tounament area turns it's back on the rest of the show physically. The tournaments should be part of the 'show' and you shouldn't have to feel like your walking into a resticted area to see whats going on.

This is a good point and one I agree with. I've been trying to get the tournament team to buy some barriers/tapes so we can make a proper tournament area, where people could see what's going on, and this would also improve the integrity of the tournaments helping us to combat cheating. But we've never done it as it's so expensive and there's always a million other things to deal with. As another poster said, the Wicksteed setup for tournaments was better.

2. Machines that are finished with in competitions should be immediately returned to public use, not just switched off and forgotten.

3. Prior to the competitions starting, what is wrong with letting the public have a go on them? If they're going to break, better they break prior to the competition starting. ( On Friday evening, all comp machines were switched off )

With them having their backs turned, you'd have to be a curious punter to know when they were not being used as tournament machines. However, most of the time when they weren't being used in tournaments, people were free-playing them! Just perhaps not as much as you'd think.



I'm not sure what to make of Friday night...the machines were used in the team tournament, which is really just an ice breaker for the weekend. What happened after that...? No idea, I was in the bar

Regarding people playing the tournaments machines before the events, to hold a tournament with integrity, you have to spend a good deal of time checking and setting up a machine. And of course giving it a good clean. Generally, that all happens before doors open. This year, all of the tournaments opened on time (I think they were last year also), and I think the tournament open times were generally the same as the doors open time. However, for the Open, competitors don't want to start playing immediately, which is most annoying because if they don't play, we have the danger of running out of time. Sadly, we can't force them to play immediately, and it doesn't matter if we delay the start, they still don't want to play from the off.

4. As the organisers mainly know what machines they are using on each day, then the fact that there may be resticted access to them on each day should be stated in the games list ( which was never posted on the ukpinballparty website ). Then if someone is making an effort to attend to play CV for example, then they can come on the day when it is not in use.

This isn't as simple as it sounds. Nick M usually pulls most of the machines in and it does seem to be a bit last minute (this is not Nick's fault). It's hard to get people to commit until near the time.



Additionally, getting updates to the UKPP website isn't that easy either, Andy H isn't really in the loop of the tournaments, he got plenty of other stuff to do. I understand your point though, with a CV on the list, it would be annoying for it to not be available on the day, if it was actually brought along.

5. I'm not sure why the league machines and players have to slope off to another room to play. Why can't the games be played on the main floor amongst the general public? On the Sunday its much quieter and having a number of people around one machine is not going to be a problem. There tend to be fewer pins on a Sunday, so little extra space around the pins can soon be arranged. Between league games and afterwards, the general public can get a go in.

I don't play in the league and have nothing to do with organising it, but I think it was assumed that there would be not enough room in the main hall, due to well over 100 machines being expected again (which ended up not much more than 100). Personally, I think the current setup is probably the most efficient it can be, tying up the machines for the least amount of time.

6. Communication and signage. There were two pins - Monster Bash, and Cactus Canyon, allocated to the 'pay per play' competition. There was no signs on these machines til late on the Saturday to this effect, so people didn't know why there were no credits on them. Why are premium pins always chosen for the 'pay per play' competitions?

I don't know much about these, but we specifically didn't want them in the main tournament area. Regarding machine supply, I think its the same story as some of the tournament machines. If they're not there for a hi-score competition, they wouldn't be there at all, it's the owners choice. A sign would certainly be helpful!

If the show continues in its current form, then there needs to be more thought as to how it is perceived by the general public.



Enough ranting for now.

Long live pinball!

 

[D-Type]

It did, but I'm not sure why they felt the need to cram themselves in the bar area when there was a huge amount of spave in the main hall. There were also a lot less people at the slam, so many more machines available to get on to.

Regarding the Slam, I think that is what happens when things aren't planned beforehand. At the start of the event, I was going to tuck 6-8 arcade games in there and run a tournament, but because the arcade machines were already in place and I was sure we'd get breakdowns, we decided against it and shuffled them around in the main hall and ran it there. That was a mistake, in the main hall there's too much noise and not enough space, or at least, it's the wrong shape space. I won't be doing it like that again, but you live and learn, and at least all the proceeds went into Will's event kitty!

Saturday morning attendance at the party exceeded machine numbers, so lots couldn't get on pins and could only look longingly at the reserved competion machines, which were yet to start.

As discussed in previous posts, they weren't reserved, they were in tournament use, it's just that the tournament players don't jump straight on! Maybe we should give extra points as a bonus if they do!