reading about the situation with jjp and woz, what a shower, they sell expensive pins with faulty boards and then leave people in the uk high and dry, and pinball heaven who I know never sold the machine in question and have a fan club on here , should get off their ass and do something as they are the uk SOLE distributor and do the supply of their goods here, stop washing your hands coz you didn't sell it and help a pinhead out.
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Jsp and pinball heaven shameful
- Thread starter mission65
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Bit confused here.
If a seller doesn't sell a product, why should seller help someone out when seller would lose money?
JJP. Now that is a different question as they built a defective product.
easy if you distribute their products SOLELY
it means you are their representative in that country, and if the manufaturer was supplying defective goods you would want it rectified or would condemn and drop the company
lets hear pinball heaven condemn them, or support this kind of practice, and not bury their head in the sand.
what do you think of this situation replay ?
it means you are their representative in that country, and if the manufaturer was supplying defective goods you would want it rectified or would condemn and drop the company
lets hear pinball heaven condemn them, or support this kind of practice, and not bury their head in the sand.
what do you think of this situation replay ?
Have you been drinking? 
Dude, I agree that JJP's support of their games in this situation sucks balls but I completely disagree with you that this has anything to do with Pinball Heaven.
This game wasn't bought from them and even if it was it's outside of it's warranty. Now I don't know the details of how these things work but if it's anything like how Stern games get into this country then Electrocoin are the importer and Pinball Heaven takes an allocation to sell to the home user (as Electrocoin only deal with the trade). So this WOZ could be one of a few things:
The logical recourse here would seem to be with JJP directly but that's already been shown to cost the owner money....it sucks but it's the risk you take buying 2nd hand arcade equipment. All in my humble opinion of course
This game wasn't bought from them and even if it was it's outside of it's warranty. Now I don't know the details of how these things work but if it's anything like how Stern games get into this country then Electrocoin are the importer and Pinball Heaven takes an allocation to sell to the home user (as Electrocoin only deal with the trade). So this WOZ could be one of a few things:
- Bought by the original owner from PH but then sold on - it's a 2nd hand pin and you have no comeback with that, just like any other game.
- Bought from Electrocoin - maybe speak to them but I don't see how a home user could have done this.
- Grey imported from the US - again you've got no support going down this route.
- Bought in from Europe - no support here either unless you bought from a retailer on the continent, then you might be able to go back to them.
The logical recourse here would seem to be with JJP directly but that's already been shown to cost the owner money....it sucks but it's the risk you take buying 2nd hand arcade equipment. All in my humble opinion of course
I agree Ron,
If you admit you have made a defective part, it doesnt matter if its warrenty or not you need to help your customers and as this pin is in England the sole distributor has a direct line to the manufacturer unlike you me and the poor sod who has been ripped off with an expensive bill
If you admit you have made a defective part, it doesnt matter if its warrenty or not you need to help your customers and as this pin is in England the sole distributor has a direct line to the manufacturer unlike you me and the poor sod who has been ripped off with an expensive bill
Slightly off topic...we used to be car audio retailers , being authorised dealers and repair agents for the like of jvc, Sony, blaupunkt, pioneer , clarion and alpine. Some of these accounts dated back to the seventies. In the 1980's and 1990's particularly the support we received from these companies was fantastic. Free wiring/service manuals. Free service parts if the product was under warranty etc. And all the technical help you could wish for. Including in some cases direct communication with their Japanese hq's. Confidence was high, relationships were solid. Customers were very happy, great service,great back up and support and great products. Those were the days...Profit was great. Then suddenly everything changed. It was like these companies were just not bothered. Some worse than others. Confidence was lost. And we became totally powerless. No one gave a hoot. This puts you in a very compromised position as a dealer/ distributor....maybe just maybe this is what's currently going on in the pinball world....just talking from experience..........if it's any help...cheers Keith.
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I think my position is that if I buy a second hand game and there is no warranty attached to it, I would be fed up but wouldn't expect to be remedied. I would probably write/phone/email JJP and try and put pressure on them.
I don't know all the specifics here so my view might change!
R
robertlucas1970
I have only just seen this, I didn't expect Phil to help as I know its a few years old.
I did think JJP would of sorted it for me, It all got me pretty stressed to the point I have listed the pin for sale, not because I think the boards will fail any time soon, they could last for years with the 5 new ones I have fitted, I also love the game, but on principle and what I believe in I will walk away and not buy a JJP again
Im sure we all have a different opinion as to who is responsible, I do know that if I sold one of my products that was faulty off the production line then the replacement part would be sent FOC along with a letter thanking the customer for their patience while we redesigned and tested the replacement part.
I am over it now, so I do appreciate the post, but I really dont want to rock the boat with Phil as I expect I will want to get a new Stern pin again soon and he gets me my parts when I need them with no problems.
Many Thanks
I did think JJP would of sorted it for me, It all got me pretty stressed to the point I have listed the pin for sale, not because I think the boards will fail any time soon, they could last for years with the 5 new ones I have fitted, I also love the game, but on principle and what I believe in I will walk away and not buy a JJP again
Im sure we all have a different opinion as to who is responsible, I do know that if I sold one of my products that was faulty off the production line then the replacement part would be sent FOC along with a letter thanking the customer for their patience while we redesigned and tested the replacement part.
I am over it now, so I do appreciate the post, but I really dont want to rock the boat with Phil as I expect I will want to get a new Stern pin again soon and he gets me my parts when I need them with no problems.
Many Thanks
Not Phil's fault, not his concern, not his business, not his problem. I won't even bother making an analogy.
with regards to saying pinball heaven should sort it,wtf r u on about?u really think that? Why should he lose money on it,u think he makes thousands out of each sale?I highly doubt he would.And u trying to name him on here when it ain't his fault is just bad form imo
Can't comment on the distributor's role, but I do feel the service one gets from JJP is very dependent on who deals with you and how loud or strident you are in making your case, both judging by my own experience and that of others.
After initially excellent support from a couple of staff members, after an issue I made the mistake of not immediately reverting to them when it was clear from the offset that the person I was now dealing with was a total and utter joke. He wasted time and money, had an appalling attitude and couldn't help even if he tried ... he then made the staggeringly fantastic offer of asking me to pay again (but more this time) for a part they'd incorrectly supplied (that I paid for) in the first place, which he was well aware of, and that apparently he was responsible for selecting after others had dealt with me in the first place. Was too livid to even fight it any more.
After initially excellent support from a couple of staff members, after an issue I made the mistake of not immediately reverting to them when it was clear from the offset that the person I was now dealing with was a total and utter joke. He wasted time and money, had an appalling attitude and couldn't help even if he tried ... he then made the staggeringly fantastic offer of asking me to pay again (but more this time) for a part they'd incorrectly supplied (that I paid for) in the first place, which he was well aware of, and that apparently he was responsible for selecting after others had dealt with me in the first place. Was too livid to even fight it any more.
I have been critical of JJP recently but I would say Pinball Heaven are beyond reproach. Phil is a good bloke and I am sure that had the game been bought through him he would have tried to help.
I think we see a situation developing here (from JJP AND Stern) whereby they want the massive financial benefits of selling games to collectors but then wanting to carry on with the old shîtty warranty deal they had with the operators. Well I am afraid that they should be brought to task over it. They are now essentially selling consumer goods and they should be held accountable for a full warranty AND also be liable for glaring design faults on components that are not fit for purpose.
I think we see a situation developing here (from JJP AND Stern) whereby they want the massive financial benefits of selling games to collectors but then wanting to carry on with the old shîtty warranty deal they had with the operators. Well I am afraid that they should be brought to task over it. They are now essentially selling consumer goods and they should be held accountable for a full warranty AND also be liable for glaring design faults on components that are not fit for purpose.
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Well this is odd isn't it.
So a few points.
1) Although those light boards can be problematic, the fact they worked for 4 years should really put that game out of any sort of warranty....
2) I was not asked by Robert to try and get the boards under warranty, he asked me to ORDER THEM FOR HIM.
3) The game NEVER EVER came through my hands, it was a parallel import. So, you buy a Sony TV from France lets say, 4 year later its knackered... you take it to Dixons and ask them to fix it. WTFF!!!!
4) I don't like these anonymous forum names - who are you @mission65?
5) I got the boards in that Robert requested for a tiny handling fee.... I passed my cost price on just a little charge for arranging it all.
6) I sent some FOC LED boards out to a customer last week - WHO BOUGHT THE GAME FROM ME 3 YEARS AGO.
Phil
So a few points.
1) Although those light boards can be problematic, the fact they worked for 4 years should really put that game out of any sort of warranty....
2) I was not asked by Robert to try and get the boards under warranty, he asked me to ORDER THEM FOR HIM.
3) The game NEVER EVER came through my hands, it was a parallel import. So, you buy a Sony TV from France lets say, 4 year later its knackered... you take it to Dixons and ask them to fix it. WTFF!!!!
4) I don't like these anonymous forum names - who are you @mission65?
5) I got the boards in that Robert requested for a tiny handling fee.... I passed my cost price on just a little charge for arranging it all.
6) I sent some FOC LED boards out to a customer last week - WHO BOUGHT THE GAME FROM ME 3 YEARS AGO.
Phil
points :
1 you are the sole distributor for the UK
2 you are the sole distributor for the UK
3 you are the sole distributor for the UK
4 you are the sole distributor for the UK
5 you are the sole distributor for the UK
didnt say you should help with money, just with your influence as sole distributor
your point 1) should it ? Four years for a £8000 - £10000 machine
your point 2 ) did you not think to ask why he was replacing so many boards, and was it to do with the known issue of boards failing and needing replacement 3 years ago
as per here : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-lighting-problems
here : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/finally-happened-woz-light-board-went-out
here : https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/EMXIgpkYAD8
your point 3) If a manufacturer has issues with a component failing they will recall like Samsung, lots of car companies ( this is not a £200 tv, but a very expensive toy )
your point 4) my name is Tony Molloy, and i have bouhgt a pinball through you, a stern.never had any issues with it, and was delivered fine.
your point 5) didnt say you should help with money
your point 6) so you agree there is a problem and you corrected it FOC, for your customer
so get on to JJP for this guy and ask your mate to correct his problem with no money from you , just influence and doing the right thing.
1 you are the sole distributor for the UK
2 you are the sole distributor for the UK
3 you are the sole distributor for the UK
4 you are the sole distributor for the UK
5 you are the sole distributor for the UK
didnt say you should help with money, just with your influence as sole distributor
your point 1) should it ? Four years for a £8000 - £10000 machine
your point 2 ) did you not think to ask why he was replacing so many boards, and was it to do with the known issue of boards failing and needing replacement 3 years ago
as per here : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/woz-lighting-problems
here : https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/finally-happened-woz-light-board-went-out
here : https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.pinball/EMXIgpkYAD8
your point 3) If a manufacturer has issues with a component failing they will recall like Samsung, lots of car companies ( this is not a £200 tv, but a very expensive toy )
your point 4) my name is Tony Molloy, and i have bouhgt a pinball through you, a stern.never had any issues with it, and was delivered fine.
your point 5) didnt say you should help with money
your point 6) so you agree there is a problem and you corrected it FOC, for your customer
so get on to JJP for this guy and ask your mate to correct his problem with no money from you , just influence and doing the right thing.
I should qualify here - you really really missed point six
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
What I mean is.... you missed point six. If you don't get point six then you don't get points one to five
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Round of applause for point six [emoji122]
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Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Little back story by the way - I send a 'faulty' board to Phil who checks it and tells me it was ok. He was right. I hadn't done my homework - the problem was elsewhere.
What's the punchline ?
It was returned swiftly with NO POSTAGE COST.
Hey, maybe he just just forgot to charge me ;-)
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What's the punchline ?
It was returned swiftly with NO POSTAGE COST.
Hey, maybe he just just forgot to charge me ;-)
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
I do not have a dog in this fight.
I do not own a JJP, and for many reasons I almost certainly never will.
I have dealt with Phil for 10 plus years. I have never bought a game from him. I am a wholly unimportant minor customer of his but have still received excellent service, much advice, free used parts, help getting obscure stuff from the usa, and that unique North Western vibe he brings. On the one occasion a part I bought from him was iffy - a damaged scared stiff globe holder, he immediately gave me a no-charge exchange and asked me to stamp on the defective one.
If common sense is applied here
On here, we all know that
If you use this forum and buy a new game, you KNOW that there is a high probability of issues. If these things were sold with "proper" MULTI-year transferrable warranties, like cars, the associated increase in the price would be substantial. It could even kill off the new build industry altogether.
Pinball is such a low volume cottage industry/ men in sheds/ garragistas world, you are taking a risk buying any new pinball product from any manufacturer.
You could buy a really nice Shadow for 1,500. Lots of spares around. Has worked for 25 years. Men in sheds can fix it. Perfectly good example of a pinball machine. Does 90 per cent of what a brand new game does
But if you want to spend 5 to 10 grand to play Russian roulette with an untested new game from an untested new manufacturer using untested new technology ..... it might well go off in your face and the odds are a lot worse than 1 in 6
I do not own a JJP, and for many reasons I almost certainly never will.
I have dealt with Phil for 10 plus years. I have never bought a game from him. I am a wholly unimportant minor customer of his but have still received excellent service, much advice, free used parts, help getting obscure stuff from the usa, and that unique North Western vibe he brings. On the one occasion a part I bought from him was iffy - a damaged scared stiff globe holder, he immediately gave me a no-charge exchange and asked me to stamp on the defective one.
If common sense is applied here
On here, we all know that
- pinball manufacturers have struggled with the economic reality that these things are virtually inviable to produce. The industry very nearly died out;
- these things are hugely expensive to design and build;
- there seem to be "issues" with literally every new game produced. Delays, clearcoat, code, companies going bust without delivering games, ghosted inserts, bits falling off as soon as the thing is turned on ....
If you use this forum and buy a new game, you KNOW that there is a high probability of issues. If these things were sold with "proper" MULTI-year transferrable warranties, like cars, the associated increase in the price would be substantial. It could even kill off the new build industry altogether.
Pinball is such a low volume cottage industry/ men in sheds/ garragistas world, you are taking a risk buying any new pinball product from any manufacturer.
You could buy a really nice Shadow for 1,500. Lots of spares around. Has worked for 25 years. Men in sheds can fix it. Perfectly good example of a pinball machine. Does 90 per cent of what a brand new game does
But if you want to spend 5 to 10 grand to play Russian roulette with an untested new game from an untested new manufacturer using untested new technology ..... it might well go off in your face and the odds are a lot worse than 1 in 6
By warranty David I mean for stuff that has obvious design/manufacturing defects. Obviously stuff like bulbs and plastics are always going to fail.
Stuff like LED boards and failing playfields SHOULD be replaced by the manufacturer when it is down to poor design or production errors.
If by having to honour these caveats they could face an uncertain future (I don't believe that to be the case by the way) then, as brutal as this sounds, so be it. In this day and age you simply cannot just manufacture and sell stuff that is not fit for purpose and carry on regardless. They have to step up their quality control in critical areas.
What will be their downfall is if they continue to churn out crap and pretend the problems don't exist (I'm looking at you Stern and the playfields fiasco) someone WILL eventually sue them.
Stuff like LED boards and failing playfields SHOULD be replaced by the manufacturer when it is down to poor design or production errors.
If by having to honour these caveats they could face an uncertain future (I don't believe that to be the case by the way) then, as brutal as this sounds, so be it. In this day and age you simply cannot just manufacture and sell stuff that is not fit for purpose and carry on regardless. They have to step up their quality control in critical areas.
What will be their downfall is if they continue to churn out crap and pretend the problems don't exist (I'm looking at you Stern and the playfields fiasco) someone WILL eventually sue them.
I agree drd and I agree that Pinball heaven has been very good to lots of people, I have stated that I bought a pin with no issues.
But what is happening with jjp woz,s is wrong and no amount of he helped me this time or the other makes it right for the pin heads who have been shafted.
You intimated it's like Russian roulette and I see now from the replies our hobby is happy with that, so be it an old hippy like me will have to adapt ,
like you glad I didn't buy 1, and will now refrain from the hobbit I was thinking of getting till I see if it works after a time
But what is happening with jjp woz,s is wrong and no amount of he helped me this time or the other makes it right for the pin heads who have been shafted.
You intimated it's like Russian roulette and I see now from the replies our hobby is happy with that, so be it an old hippy like me will have to adapt ,
like you glad I didn't buy 1, and will now refrain from the hobbit I was thinking of getting till I see if it works after a time
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So Tony,
Lets clarify a few points, just for you...
> your point 1) should it ? Four years for a £8000 - £10000 machine
WOZ ECLE was £6-7k not 8-10. As @DRD quite rightly points out, pinball is lucky to even exist now, its not like cars or any big industry that can actually sort OUT OF WARRANTY issues like this out FOC. I think if it were the original owner with issues, maybe they have a right to knock on JJP's door asking for help, but not 3 or 4 or 5 people down the line.
> your point 2 ) did you not think to ask why he was replacing so many boards, and was it to do with the known issue of boards failing and needing replacement 3 years ago
No, nor do I ask why people want x, y or z part when they order it off the website every day, he actually asked for a number of the single boards as SPARES. I was aware he had the known LED issue but again, he asked me to order the boards for him as he didn't expect them under warranty either.
> your point 3) If a manufacturer has issues with a component failing they will recall like Samsung, lots of car companies ( this is not a £200 tv, but a very expensive toy )
I can't put it better than David Dodds did, pinball would be bankrupt or the price would be double. You try to get parts out of Stern UNDER warranty, never mind 4 years on. Not a chance in hell. So, we all know those Stern DMD's are crap right, its common that lines are stuck on, pretty much most games have this problem at some point. Can you ask Stern if they are giving them lifetime warranties because I think if I did they would just crease over laughing.
> your point 4) my name is Tony Molloy, and i have bouhgt a pinball through you, a stern.never had any issues with it, and was delivered fine.
Thanks for that, duly noted.
> your point 5) didnt say you should help with money
You keep missing the fact that A) I was asked for order from JJP these board. B) I wasnt asked to try and get them under warranty. C) This game is a parallel import, I am not supporting parallel imports just like no one else would PERIOD.
> your point 6) so you agree there is a problem and you corrected it FOC, for your customer so get on to JJP for this guy and ask your mate to correct his problem with no money from you , just influence and doing the right thing.[/QUOTE]
Actually I sent the customer (not @Jonwolf) a board I had in stock, I would have actually done the same for Robert had I had the boards he requested in stock...
I am not going to revisit this now, I have made the facts clear.
Now, stop stressing yourself about something that does not concern you.
Phil
Lets clarify a few points, just for you...
> your point 1) should it ? Four years for a £8000 - £10000 machine
WOZ ECLE was £6-7k not 8-10. As @DRD quite rightly points out, pinball is lucky to even exist now, its not like cars or any big industry that can actually sort OUT OF WARRANTY issues like this out FOC. I think if it were the original owner with issues, maybe they have a right to knock on JJP's door asking for help, but not 3 or 4 or 5 people down the line.
> your point 2 ) did you not think to ask why he was replacing so many boards, and was it to do with the known issue of boards failing and needing replacement 3 years ago
No, nor do I ask why people want x, y or z part when they order it off the website every day, he actually asked for a number of the single boards as SPARES. I was aware he had the known LED issue but again, he asked me to order the boards for him as he didn't expect them under warranty either.
> your point 3) If a manufacturer has issues with a component failing they will recall like Samsung, lots of car companies ( this is not a £200 tv, but a very expensive toy )
I can't put it better than David Dodds did, pinball would be bankrupt or the price would be double. You try to get parts out of Stern UNDER warranty, never mind 4 years on. Not a chance in hell. So, we all know those Stern DMD's are crap right, its common that lines are stuck on, pretty much most games have this problem at some point. Can you ask Stern if they are giving them lifetime warranties because I think if I did they would just crease over laughing.
> your point 4) my name is Tony Molloy, and i have bouhgt a pinball through you, a stern.never had any issues with it, and was delivered fine.
Thanks for that, duly noted.
> your point 5) didnt say you should help with money
You keep missing the fact that A) I was asked for order from JJP these board. B) I wasnt asked to try and get them under warranty. C) This game is a parallel import, I am not supporting parallel imports just like no one else would PERIOD.
> your point 6) so you agree there is a problem and you corrected it FOC, for your customer so get on to JJP for this guy and ask your mate to correct his problem with no money from you , just influence and doing the right thing.[/QUOTE]
Actually I sent the customer (not @Jonwolf) a board I had in stock, I would have actually done the same for Robert had I had the boards he requested in stock...
I am not going to revisit this now, I have made the facts clear.
Now, stop stressing yourself about something that does not concern you.
Phil
Hi Phil
Thankyou for the reply, and clarification, I now believe I understand much better
I have no problem with you as a company,
It did actually concern me and stress me as I was close to buying a Hobbit from you, but as I know where you stand with JJP, I will look towards maybe a stern also from you or the mb or ac dc on the second hand market.
Oh as for your condescending comment as an ending :
Here's one for you, hope you like it on the model of yours
So don't stress or concern yourself over something I now know does not concern you either, as you obviously have no power over JJP . (Might be better to change your website to reflect that i.e sole seller of maybe working pinballs from JJP )
Thankyou for the reply, and clarification, I now believe I understand much better
I have no problem with you as a company,
It did actually concern me and stress me as I was close to buying a Hobbit from you, but as I know where you stand with JJP, I will look towards maybe a stern also from you or the mb or ac dc on the second hand market.
Oh as for your condescending comment as an ending :
Here's one for you, hope you like it on the model of yours
So don't stress or concern yourself over something I now know does not concern you either, as you obviously have no power over JJP . (Might be better to change your website to reflect that i.e sole seller of maybe working pinballs from JJP )
Thread lock commencing in 5....4.....3.....
Honestly, I really don't see how anyone can criticise Phil given the scenario - it would be like buying a 4 year old imported Stern machine from the 3rd owner and expecting him to fix issues that occur with it. The argument that he should use his 'influence' is frankly ridiculous for a variety of reasons, especially given that the machine didn't come through him in the first place. I've bought several NIB machines through Phil along with a load of parts over the years and his service has never been anything short of exceptional, and I've also heard countless stories of him going above and beyond for other customers. I really think we're fortunate to have him as our distributor here in the UK.
I do however think there's an argument to criticise JJP - the machine shipped with a design fault and I do think that they should have allowed for a FOC set for every previously manufactured machine, regardless of whether it was still with the original owner. It wouldn't have cost them much and goodwill is important in a hobby this size - neither WOZ nor TH appeal to me at all, but this sort of thing would make me think twice if they did. I do like the look of Dialled In, but unfortunately the NIB cost is simply too high.
I do however think there's an argument to criticise JJP - the machine shipped with a design fault and I do think that they should have allowed for a FOC set for every previously manufactured machine, regardless of whether it was still with the original owner. It wouldn't have cost them much and goodwill is important in a hobby this size - neither WOZ nor TH appeal to me at all, but this sort of thing would make me think twice if they did. I do like the look of Dialled In, but unfortunately the NIB cost is simply too high.
This thread has made me sad.
Feels a lot like a case of being angry by proxy and I don't see that it's fair yon drag Pinball Heavens name through the dirt for not supporting a machine which they shpuld never had been expected to support. Indeed the guy with the issue seems fine with the help he received.
JJP could probably do better with their customer service but hopefully lessons have been learnt and we will see an improvement in reliability going forward.
Feels a lot like a case of being angry by proxy and I don't see that it's fair yon drag Pinball Heavens name through the dirt for not supporting a machine which they shpuld never had been expected to support. Indeed the guy with the issue seems fine with the help he received.
JJP could probably do better with their customer service but hopefully lessons have been learnt and we will see an improvement in reliability going forward.
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