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Jokerz A/C Relay Clicking, Specific Solenoids Inop? Help Required Please.

J

jonathaniancarlin

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Evening all!

Firstly I should advise I'm very much a novice (to put it politely) when it comes to the technical side of table repairs. So any patience you may have would be greatly appreciated.

I bought a Williams Jokerz table a few months back and recently decided i'd give it a bit of a cleaning, replaced some broken plastics (mainly the upper playfield) and a number of bulbs which I have replaced for LED's.

When it came to finishing up and restarting the table the first ball played without a hitch however on it's return to the ball trough I found it was not then being kicked into the lane feeder for the second ball to eject. Manually moving the ball resulted in me finding that the ball feeder solenoid was not firing either.

On some investigation behind the backglass I found that the A/C switch relay was clicking whenever the ball was in the trough as it recognised the switch had been pressed.

After consulting the manual (MANUAL HERE) I found the diagram attached. As it turns out each of the solenoids highlighted in yellow is not firing.

I initially thought this may be the 10a 250v fuse though I've replaced this today without any luck.

I was hoping before I strip any boards out and check for cracked solder points that anyone here may be able to advise me on any other course of action? Being very much a novice and new to the hobby as i'm sure you can imagine i'm hesitant to do so.

I've attempted swapping the LED's back to the bulbs noted on the diagram in connection with the A/C relay though again no luck.

Is it possible me swapping bulbs for LED's would even cause an issue like this? My guess was that as the first ball after powering it on ejected fine that the issue started when a flasher was triggered?

Any help at all greatly appreciated. I have added other pages from the manual that may be of reference.
Thanks
Jonathan
 

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The thing is, though, that the A/C relay isn't needed to pulse the 'A' side - to use the ramp thrower, ball feeder or any 'A' circuit, it remains Off. It would operate to use the relevant driver circuits (1,2 & 5 in this case) for the flashbulbs connected as the 'C' side loads.

The solenoids you show as not working all seem to use the 25v solenoid supply, rather than the alternative 50v one also present. Is this the fuse you've replaced? It's Fuse 2A on the 'Aux Power' circuit board. It shouldn't be 10 A, though, the diagram on page 84 of the manual shows solenoids 01A, 02A, 05A and 08A supplied from the 'A' side of the relay via fuse F2A, rated at 2-1/2 Amps.
 
Thanks very much for the reply Jay. Would I be correct thinking that now knowing as you say the A/C relay wasn't needed to pulse the "A" side it would confirm my suspicion that the fault first happened when the flashers were triggered?

The fuse I replaced was indeed F2A. I replaced the 10amp in it with another 10amp. I hadn't experienced any issues using the 10amp fuse previously, it was what was installed when I purchased the table. Would the 2 1/2 amp fuse potentially rectify this? Please forgive my naivety.

After further looking at the table this morning and pressing a few playfield switches it seems none of the flashers on the "C" side are operating either.

I've only just spotted details of a "C" side test within the manual on page 34 so I may run through this later and return any results.

Thanks again for the reply.
 
The fact that a 10 A fuse had crept in worries me, it's multiple times the proper value. The A/C relay switches 25v power to either the A side using F2A, or to the flashbulbs on its C side using F2C. If they aren't working either, maybe the relay isn't receiving 25 v power, which is produced by bridge rectifier BR 1 on the Aux Power board. The other fuses for 25v are F8 for the input to the entire rectifier circuit, F1 and F3 for the other (non A/C switched) 25v solenoids. Though there must be 25v power, if the relay itself is working.

I'm not sure whether flashbulbs could've caused this, tbh. They're usually a lot less troublesome than solenoids. Run through the solenoid test, for the first eight circuits the A/C relay should behave as Off for the A side and On for the C side, with its own drive showing as No. 12. Flashbulbs working from any of the eight C-side circuits would show that the relay is switching 25v, as all the flashbulbs use 25v power.
 
Thanks Jay

Rest assured i've ordered some 2.5a fuses to replace this 10a though I completely agree i'm not overly pleased about discovering it. I will need to go through the others and make sure they are correct.

I've ran through the solenoid test as well as the "C" side test and found the below.

OUTHOLE - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. UPR L/JO - "C" SIDE - inop
TROUGH - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. UPR L2/KE - "C" SIDE - inop
B.L. DROP TARGET - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. UPR R2/R - "C" SIDE - inop
B.R DROP TARGET - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. UPR R/Z - "C" SIDE - inop
T.L. KICKER - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. DBL YER SCR - "C" SIDE - inop
T.L. DROP TARGET - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. T.L DT/TOP JOK - "C" SIDE - inop
B.L. KICKER - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. BL DT/MID JOK - "C" SIDE - inop
KNOCKER - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. BR DT/BOT JOK - "C" SIDE - inop

I've uploaded video of the solenoid test here: SOLENOID TEST

The "C" side test only more conclusively showed an "ERR" on "C" side though "A" was reporting without issue.

"C" test video here: "C" SIDE TEST

Reading the MANUAL on page 34 under the "C" side test it indicates fuses F8 or F2C could be blown. I've checked both from end to end with a multimeter and both are showing a reading. It does indicate possible issue with the relay also as well as other potential sources. I have removed and re-seated cables connected to the auxiliary power board without any luck as well.

I hope this info is of some help but i'm unsure where to check next unfortunately.
 

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As I feared, the only things working with the first eight solenoids are the four 50v coils.

The A/C relay has a check circuit attached, which is referred to by the 'C-side' test. The 25v 'C' power is fed to an 'opto-isolator', which produces a closed-switch (No. 02 in the Switch chart) when the relay is On. This is what's under review in the C-side test. A lack of power on the 25v side of the relay would cause an error, as the switch wouldn't be detected.

The 25v input to the relay has provision for a fuse, F2, which I've never seen actually fitted. Williams used a jumper instead, W6, which isn't a plain bit of wire but a white 'resistor' with black band to show zero-Ohm value. It's not unknown for these to fail. Seeing as it's a 'short' anyway, either check continuity with a meter, or you could carefully link across it to see if it is really conducting. Lock the solenoid test to repeat a 'C' flashbulb pulse, avoiding the vibration of a solenoid operating, before actually making the linkage.
 
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Thanks again Jay
I think I will remove the auxiliary power board later today and give it more of an inspection. Will post photos of any findings.

Praying it's something as simple as some cracked solder.
 
I'm the guilty party on that fuse. Bought the machine shopped and serviced and went on my merry way. Trust no-one!
 
55AA86E6-C57D-4E56-A898-C08449507D99.jpeg
6139F32A-B6E8-4488-A08C-622275953C9A.jpeg

Couple photos of the auxiliary board front and back. Unfortunately I can’t spot anything unusual with my untrained eyes. Solder looks to be fairly clean from what I can tell.
 
Jay Walker said:
As I feared, the only things working with the first eight solenoids are the four 50v coils.

The A/C relay has a check circuit attached, which is referred to by the 'C-side' test. The 25v 'C' power is fed to an 'opto-isolator', which produces a closed-switch (No. 02 in the Switch chart) when the relay is On. This is what's under review in the C-side test. A lack of power on the 25v side of the relay would cause an error, as the switch wouldn't be detected.

The 25v input to the relay has provision for a fuse, F2, which I've never seen actually fitted. Williams used a jumper instead, W6, which isn't a plain bit of wire but a white 'resistor' with black band to show zero-Ohm value. It's not unknown for these to fail. Seeing as it's a 'short' anyway, either check continuity with a meter, or you could carefully link across it to see if it is really conducting. Lock the solenoid test to repeat a 'C' flashbulb pulse, avoiding the vibration of a solenoid operating, before actually making the linkage.
Click to expand...

I’ve tested continuity across multiple parts of the board as suggested and you could well be right on that W6 resistor where the F2 fuse placement is shown. I’m getting nothing across it at all.

Not having done it before I’m unsure on what I’d use to make the linkage to test it? Or now knowing it’s dead would I be best simply replacing it?

Thanks
 

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AlanJ said:
remove it and replace it with a piece of wire.
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Thanks, I realise it’s just a bridge and not placed there as a safety measure so a wire can be used.

Given the fact I’m still waiting on a 2.5a fuse to replace the 10a one that was in there incorrectly I will wait till I have this before replacing the resistor and powering on again.

Will provide updates once I have them.
 
Thanks for all help so far guys. I've just replaced that resistor this afternoon. I no longer get an error message in menu on the "c" side test. However i'm still not getting life from the four coils and a couple of the flash lamps seem to be staying on when I believe they shouldn't be.

Results of the coil test, VIDEO HERE.

OUTHOLE - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. UPR L/JO - "C" SIDE - ok (but also lights F.L. UPR L2/KE)
TROUGH - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. UPR L2/KE - "C" SIDE - ok
B.L. DROP TARGET - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. UPR R2/R - "C" SIDE - ok (but also lights F.L. UPR L2/KE)
B.R DROP TARGET - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. UPR R/Z - "C" SIDE - ok (but also lights F.L. UPR L2/KE)
T.L. KICKER - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. DBL YER SCR - "C" SIDE - ok (but also lights F.L. UPR L2/KE)
T.L. DROP TARGET - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. T.L DT/TOP JOK - "C" SIDE - ok (but also lights F.L. UPR L2/KE)
B.L. KICKER - "A" SIDE - ok
F.L. BL DT/MID JOK - "C" SIDE - ok (but also lights F.L. UPR L2/KE)
KNOCKER - "A" SIDE - inop
F.L. BR DT/BOT JOK - "C" SIDE - ok

I'm suspecting due to a couple of the lamps being stuck on that I may have some sort of a short beneath the upper playfield plastic that I replaced but if anyone can advise if there could be anything else stopping those four solenoids it'd be greatly appreciated.

Thanks again.

Capture.JPG
 
Ok, so further inspection leads me to think I have something somewhere forcing 02C on constant. It’s preventing the the relay from sitting in its “rest” position on the “A” side from my understanding.

Solenoid 02C - #906/89 Flashlamps - UPF/“KE” Flashers - Connection 5J5-8 (C) - Q25

I’ve sweat over the schematics tonight and I’m close to tearing my hair out as to what could be causing it. I’ve been trying to trace the wiring but cannot follow the manual well enough. I get so far and become lost losing track of where I was in the first place 🤦🏼‍♂️

If anyone at all could shed some light it would truly be a great help.

The relay itself looks clean so I’m not suspecting that at the moment.

I’ve replaced fuses F1, F2A and F2C as well as resistor W6 which was dead.

Thanks
 
Do you have 25V on the brown cable/coils in question at rest? Also, flasher "KE" is always activated no matter what coil is tested?
 
drhex said:
Do you have 25V on the brown cable/coils in question at rest? Also, flasher "KE" is always activated no matter what coil is tested?
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I have not checked for 25v on the "A" side (brown cable) as the relay is stuck on the "C" side lighting the "KE" flasher constantly. I need to determine what is triggering that particular flasher to light? Once I can find that out and rectify it I'm hoping it will turn off the switch in the relay setting it into it's rest position, then giving power to the "A" side (brown cable).

Please correct me if I'm wrong however, I'm very much a novice at this.
 
The KE flasher is a different issue than the coils not working as it is somehow grounded on every coil activating. Please check D32 as a first step on that. How are you coming to the conclusion that the 25V side of the relay is broken? Is flasher "JO" lighting up when you're testing the outhole?
 
As far as I can see I don't have any issues when testing D32 with a meter.

I wasn't suggesting it was broken but believed something was triggering it to switch to the "C" at start up. Therefore the "A" side is not receiving the 25v? My understanding of it's operation may be incorrect. Thoroughly confused by it.
 
Could be but according to your earlier statements the 50V side is switching. As the driver for 50 and 25V is the same this suggests the relay is working in principle. The 25V switch in it may still be stuck which is ahy I am asking if enabling "Outhole" triggers flasher "JO" instead. Please measure on both sides of fuse 2A if you have 25V at rest. If that is the case, look at the coils. If not, it may be the relay.
 
The relay supplies power to the 'A' side loads when it's Off, and the 'C' side ones (usually flashbulbs) when On. So to switch those 25v coils on the A side, it isn't meant to operate, and since nothing seems to happen on the 25v 'A' pulses (not even the flashbulbs lighting) that seems to be the case.

Take solenoid 01, f'r instance. The driver, for both A and C, is transistor Q33 of the Cpu/driver board. Whether it pulses 01A, the outhole coil, or 01C, 'J/O' flashbulbs, depends on the relay, i.e. if it's Off the coil operates, if it's On the lamps flash. The worry now is the unwanted activity of 02C, the 'K/E' flashers, on all eight A/C circuits. Looking at your video, they also flash when the relay itself is tested in its own right, as solenoid 12. That suggests to me that the driver for solenoid 02, Q 25, is damaged and allowing the flashbulbs to operate whenever the relay is energised - I think they seem to light for longer than a proper flashbulb pulse, more as if the relay is the only control present for them.

But if so, 02A would also be locked On when the relay is Off, hopefully blowing the fuse F2A. Which unfortunately was massively over-rated. Did a solenoid (Ball Feeder) operate as soon as the power was on, and have the solenoid(s) and F2A survived?

Notes on the 25v A supply path
The four solenoids operating from 25v on the 'A' side aren't working; they're supplied from the 25v side of the relay via fuse F2A. This then leaves the Aux Power board, from J 11, pin 4 according to the manual (full name 5J11-4, 5 denoting the Aux Power board). The next section is through the 'Interconnect' board at the bottom of the light box, below the Cpu board. Its designator, 2, gives the connectors 2J5, pin 12, for entering the board, 2J8 pin 1 for supplying the playfield, and 2J7 pin 1 for the knocker in the back box. From those connectors, each coil should have 25 v reaching it when the relay is Off. The circuit uses Brown wire throughout.
 
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This is why I was asking if the "JO" lights on testing the outhole. If the 25V finger of the relay is stuck on C side and Q25 is broken, "KE" should be on all the time.
 
seems that you have determined that the a/c relay is locking on when the game is powered on? if so, then look at the circuit that switches that relay on
 
Not so much the relay, Alan, but solenoid drive 02. Each time the relay operates, the flashbulbs of 02C piggy-back onto the other drive pulses. And they light during the relay test pulse, Solenoid 12.

Or rather, they light up while the relay operates, since their own drive transistor is shorted.
 
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Thanks very much for the advice guys. It's all very helpful.

Testing the amperage on fuse F2A I don't seem to get anything in rest though that is what I would have expected given that the relay is switched on start up to the "C" side.

I can also confirm that I do not get flasher "JO" to light when the outhole switch is pressed. "KE" flashes and I hear the relay clicking.

I took a look at Q25 on the CPU board, not sure how to test it though it does have continuity on my meter. On inspection it appears as though it may have a discoloured spot on the board. Please see photo below?

InkedIMG_2568.jpg
 
Fuse 2A should show 25v with the relay Off, sending power to the 25v A solenoids. I've outlined the circuit pathway in an edit above. The relay is only used when a 'C' load is required.

I don't think that a transistor like that should show a continuity/buzzer reading, but that and the discolouration adds to my suspicion that it's shorted. One lead is also connected to the metal heat-sink tab, so there would be continuity there, but not to the other leads. Compare it with another. I'd simply cut it off the board pending replacement, tbh. Though that will leave solenoid 2 totally disabled, both A and C.

I'd check with voltage or continuity through the 25v A supply side, from W6, through the relay, Fuse 2A, then the circuit I've listed to see if the coil supply path is alright. All in all, if Q 25 is shorted, then if the ball feeder (02A) had 25v power it would lock On* when the relay is Off, as the flashbulbs do when it's On.

* and if it has done so, it may well be burnt-out, and would destroy a fresh transistor at the first go. So factor in a coil replacement, the knocker uses the same 23-800 coil.
 
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OK, again: If the relay was switched to C on startup, your 50v solenoids wouldn't be working as well as they are on the A side. You are also saying that the relay is clicking, it therefore switches.
When you do a coil test on "Outhole kicker", does "JO" light instead? Or does nothing happen? Looking at the video the latter seems to be the case. If so, the relay has switched from the C side but either doesn't contact the A side inside itself or there is something wrong downstream of the relay. Can you please therefore measure the VOLTAGE against ground on both sides of F2A at rest to establish if the relay switches 25V to the A side on the aux driver board. Q25 may well be toast if KE always lights when the relay switches to C side. But that is probably not your main issue here.
Edit: @jay was faster - anyway, the shooter lane kicker should be continously enabled, if 25V is there on the A side and Q25 is toast. Also, measure continuity to ground from the banded side of D32, if that buzzes through Q25 id probably broken. You can also put the black lead on the metal tab of Q25 and measure to the outside legs with the red lead in diode mode. Should read between .4-.6V, anything else and the transistor is gone.
 
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