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Games that make you a better player

C&C said:
Apologies for the long post - I seem to have got a bit carried away!

TL DR - Spending time practising specific skills is an important factor in making you a better player - more important than a particular machine (IMHO).

I'm not going to suggest any specific game that "makes you a better player", as I believe literally any game can make you a better player - it just depends on how you use it. This is something I've actually been thinking about a fair bit recently - how to improve as a player.

One thing that struck me was if you think about pinball and compare it to how people improve playing other sports/games.

Take cricket as an example (or football, table tennis, hockey etc..).
The aim of the game in cricket, when you're batting is to not lose your wicket, hit the ball in a variety of directions from a variety of incoming speeds, angles, spins, and score runs. Sounds a bit like pinball - don't drain, hit various shots and score points.

Now, when trying to improve (at any level), do cricketers simply go out and play match after match, trying to get better through this experience, or do they also have an alternative approach? The answer is that they spend time training - both fitness, and more importantly doing net sessions, where they will stand in a net and have ball after ball repeatedly bowled at them (either by team mates, or an automated bowling machine) with the aim of working on specific shots - whether that's an off-side cover drive, on-side hook shot or whatever. As they improve their ability to automatically hit these shots, this (hopefully) improves their game when it comes to actually playing a match.

So, back to pinball - when playing at home, or at a club (but not in a competition), how do you spend the time? I'm guessing not dis-similar to how I've been playing - start the game, plunge the ball and try to get the best score I can. When the last ball drains, hit the start button, and repeat, or move to a different game and essentially do the same. This is similar to the cricket approach of just playing match after match, with little focus on improving specific skills/shots.

I'm sure we've all seen various tutorial videos where specific skills are explained. @Gonzo has some great short videos on his YouTube channel done by Craig Pullen (@roadshow16 ) explaining post-pass, live catches, bounce pass etc.. There's a more extensive series of skills videos on the PAPA channel. Although we've probably all seen these, or similar, the question I've found myself asking is:

How many times do I actively practise these skills? In other words, how often do I approach a game, hit start, and then forget about the score, but simply spend the next 15-20 minutes repeatedly post-passing the ball from one flipper to the other? Then spend 15 minutes just trying alley passes, or 10 minutes just trying to get a single tap pass right (admittedly this one is more achievable on some of the classics than modern Sterns). The answer (for me) was pretty much not at all.

I believe that one of the reasons the top players are so good is that the likes of Craig, Andy Foster, Rich Mallet etc.. do spend time on improving specific skills. Watching the UK Open really brought this home to me when many of the top international players were repeatedly hitting tap passes, live and drop catches effortlessly. This resulted in the ball very rarely being out of control, and hence leading to some great scores. These shots don't come naturally, and I'm pretty certain that hours of practise have gone into refining all these specific skills.

So, for me, I'm now trying to ensure that I practise these skills for at least a part of each pinball session. The funny part is that although it might sound boring, it's actually quite rewarding when you eventually get it right, then try to repeat the same again.

Obviously, this is just one small part of improving as a player - practising accurate shots, learning and understanding the rules of each table etc.. are all needed, but I thought I'd just mention this skills aspect and wondered whether other people spend appreciable time doing this type of practise?
Click to expand...

Love it Conrad 👍

In cricketing terms I'll try and become the Geoffrey Boycott of pinball because I'm not sure I can be Ben Stokes 😉
 
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C&C said:
Apologies for the long post - I seem to have got a bit carried away!

TL DR - Spending time practising specific skills is an important factor in making you a better player - more important than a particular machine (IMHO).

I'm not going to suggest any specific game that "makes you a better player", as I believe literally any game can make you a better player - it just depends on how you use it. This is something I've actually been thinking about a fair bit recently - how to improve as a player.

One thing that struck me was if you think about pinball and compare it to how people improve playing other sports/games.

Take cricket as an example (or football, table tennis, hockey etc..).
The aim of the game in cricket, when you're batting is to not lose your wicket, hit the ball in a variety of directions from a variety of incoming speeds, angles, spins, and score runs. Sounds a bit like pinball - don't drain, hit various shots and score points.

Now, when trying to improve (at any level), do cricketers simply go out and play match after match, trying to get better through this experience, or do they also have an alternative approach? The answer is that they spend time training - both fitness, and more importantly doing net sessions, where they will stand in a net and have ball after ball repeatedly bowled at them (either by team mates, or an automated bowling machine) with the aim of working on specific shots - whether that's an off-side cover drive, on-side hook shot or whatever. As they improve their ability to automatically hit these shots, this (hopefully) improves their game when it comes to actually playing a match.

So, back to pinball - when playing at home, or at a club (but not in a competition), how do you spend the time? I'm guessing not dis-similar to how I've been playing - start the game, plunge the ball and try to get the best score I can. When the last ball drains, hit the start button, and repeat, or move to a different game and essentially do the same. This is similar to the cricket approach of just playing match after match, with little focus on improving specific skills/shots.

I'm sure we've all seen various tutorial videos where specific skills are explained. @Gonzo has some great short videos on his YouTube channel done by Craig Pullen (@roadshow16 ) explaining post-pass, live catches, bounce pass etc.. There's a more extensive series of skills videos on the PAPA channel. Although we've probably all seen these, or similar, the question I've found myself asking is:

How many times do I actively practise these skills? In other words, how often do I approach a game, hit start, and then forget about the score, but simply spend the next 15-20 minutes repeatedly post-passing the ball from one flipper to the other? Then spend 15 minutes just trying alley passes, or 10 minutes just trying to get a single tap pass right (admittedly this one is more achievable on some of the classics than modern Sterns). The answer (for me) was pretty much not at all.

I believe that one of the reasons the top players are so good is that the likes of Craig, Andy Foster, Rich Mallet etc.. do spend time on improving specific skills. Watching the UK Open really brought this home to me when many of the top international players were repeatedly hitting tap passes, live and drop catches effortlessly. This resulted in the ball very rarely being out of control, and hence leading to some great scores. These shots don't come naturally, and I'm pretty certain that hours of practise have gone into refining all these specific skills.

So, for me, I'm now trying to ensure that I practise these skills for at least a part of each pinball session. The funny part is that although it might sound boring, it's actually quite rewarding when you eventually get it right, then try to repeat the same again.

Obviously, this is just one small part of improving as a player - practising accurate shots, learning and understanding the rules of each table etc.. are all needed, but I thought I'd just mention this skills aspect and wondered whether other people spend appreciable time doing this type of practise?
Click to expand...
Rather than just practising a particular skill, try and build that in to a strategy.

As I said previously about BoP I'd post pass until I could do it with my eyes closed - I've even gone as far as covering the flippers with a piece of A4 paper (like the Tommy blinders) so you need to take notice of the ball trajectory near the top of the field to determine where the ball is heading.
I recently borrowed BK:SOR and spent numerous games doing nothing but going for loops which allowed me to practice loop catches, live catches and flipping on the fly after a dead bounce (think Julio hitting the long cast on FT in the final at the UK Open)
 
C&C said:
Apologies for the long post - I seem to have got a bit carried away!

TL DR - Spending time practising specific skills is an important factor in making you a better player - more important than a particular machine (IMHO).

I'm not going to suggest any specific game that "makes you a better player", as I believe literally any game can make you a better player - it just depends on how you use it. This is something I've actually been thinking about a fair bit recently - how to improve as a player.

One thing that struck me was if you think about pinball and compare it to how people improve playing other sports/games.

Take cricket as an example (or football, table tennis, hockey etc..).
The aim of the game in cricket, when you're batting is to not lose your wicket, hit the ball in a variety of directions from a variety of incoming speeds, angles, spins, and score runs. Sounds a bit like pinball - don't drain, hit various shots and score points.

Now, when trying to improve (at any level), do cricketers simply go out and play match after match, trying to get better through this experience, or do they also have an alternative approach? The answer is that they spend time training - both fitness, and more importantly doing net sessions, where they will stand in a net and have ball after ball repeatedly bowled at them (either by team mates, or an automated bowling machine) with the aim of working on specific shots - whether that's an off-side cover drive, on-side hook shot or whatever. As they improve their ability to automatically hit these shots, this (hopefully) improves their game when it comes to actually playing a match.

So, back to pinball - when playing at home, or at a club (but not in a competition), how do you spend the time? I'm guessing not dis-similar to how I've been playing - start the game, plunge the ball and try to get the best score I can. When the last ball drains, hit the start button, and repeat, or move to a different game and essentially do the same. This is similar to the cricket approach of just playing match after match, with little focus on improving specific skills/shots.

I'm sure we've all seen various tutorial videos where specific skills are explained. @Gonzo has some great short videos on his YouTube channel done by Craig Pullen (@roadshow16 ) explaining post-pass, live catches, bounce pass etc.. There's a more extensive series of skills videos on the PAPA channel. Although we've probably all seen these, or similar, the question I've found myself asking is:

How many times do I actively practise these skills? In other words, how often do I approach a game, hit start, and then forget about the score, but simply spend the next 15-20 minutes repeatedly post-passing the ball from one flipper to the other? Then spend 15 minutes just trying alley passes, or 10 minutes just trying to get a single tap pass right (admittedly this one is more achievable on some of the classics than modern Sterns). The answer (for me) was pretty much not at all.

I believe that one of the reasons the top players are so good is that the likes of Craig, Andy Foster, Rich Mallet etc.. do spend time on improving specific skills. Watching the UK Open really brought this home to me when many of the top international players were repeatedly hitting tap passes, live and drop catches effortlessly. This resulted in the ball very rarely being out of control, and hence leading to some great scores. These shots don't come naturally, and I'm pretty certain that hours of practise have gone into refining all these specific skills.

So, for me, I'm now trying to ensure that I practise these skills for at least a part of each pinball session. The funny part is that although it might sound boring, it's actually quite rewarding when you eventually get it right, then try to repeat the same again.

Obviously, this is just one small part of improving as a player - practising accurate shots, learning and understanding the rules of each table etc.. are all needed, but I thought I'd just mention this skills aspect and wondered whether other people spend appreciable time doing this type of practise?
Click to expand...
This is a great post - thanks! 👍

I practice skills, but my score tends to drop - so, I feel obliged to return to normal games to remain on the (home) high-score table!

I don't practice specific shots (e.g. making a specific orbit) on my home machines, because I won't see those specific machines elsewhere. I had a period practicing shooting from a cradle, but - then - that's all I could do, and I became really good at some classics (and rubbish at Godzilla). So, I tried shooting accurately with a moving ball, but I kept losing it. Then, I realised I was losing the ball because I had no idea how to nudge and tried practicing that, and using it all the time, as I'd noticed some players at the first London and SE League got high scores despite not aiming that great, just by nudging... but I couldn't stop going SDTM and the ball got out of control all the time again :rolleyes:

So, I'm currently practicing bringing a speeding ball to a halt by catching several times, rather than sticking my flipper up ready to catch. At the moment, this is leading to a lot of fumbling the ball, and I'm not nudging as much as I was (so will probably lose that skill).

I own Alien Poker entirely to practice cradling/accuracy as that's all it is - shooting drop targets down in order.
 
I would also say the element of luck involved in pinball also muddies the feedback loop between training, playing well and scoring well. I have the same problem with poker, you can be doing the right things but not getting better results, I find that very demotivating and have given up playing for cash now while I still have a roof over my head!
 
StandUpAndFight said:
I think learning new skills takes you out of your comfort zone, and as a result, you will probably see your performance fall back for a while, which isn't very motivating. I suppose you have to look at it as short-term pain for long-term gain.
Click to expand...

I was going to say this too.

It's as if you have to get worse to get better sometimes. Like relearning because of bad habits.

Claire often complains she'll never get better but I've always told her where she's going wrong.
It's a lot easier to see where you're going wrong if someone is there watching or you record yourself playing. Usually the ball is lost because of a shot you made a few seconds before, but by the time your ball has drained it's really hard to go back in time and remember what went wrong.
Pretty much what @wayneJ says about missed shots.

So I would tell Claire she needs to let the ball bounce, but apparently every time she tried that she'd lose the ball, so didn't want to try it again (the demotivation @StandUpAndFight mentions). She's now started trying it again and getting better results.

Point being, when you are trying to learn a new skill you're out of your comfort zone and will do worse until you've got more experience. With dead bounces it's about being able to anticipate the ball and understand if a bounce will work. That will only come with experience from experimenting and you'll lose more balls in the process.

I have had the same with drop catches. I never really tried them until this year, I started messing with them from the Stroke of luck scoop on AFM then realised how easy it is.
Then started doing it for the sake of it, often losing balls but by doing this I was learning when it's appropriate to do a drop catch. I know some videos explain this but experiencing it firsthand is how you learn, it's like you're reprogramming your brain and eventually these skills become automatic.
 
I'm someone who likes experimenting and messing around on pinball machines.
Often when Claire and I play at home I'm distracted by an issue with a game, (eg the KISS gate on creech was being dodgy and bouncing the ball back), so I end up using my turn to try hit that shot to test it because it'll bother me otherwise 😄.
Did the same with the feed from the pops, I wanted the ball to dead bounce to the left for a safe trap so I was adjusting ball guides and then practicing that shot. During this I was also learning to live catch the ball on the right flipper. So now I have two options to get control on either flipper meaning I can make any shot I need.

Because I'm so particular about how our games play I often play test them and try making the same shot and in turn I'm practicing.

But this has created another issue for me. Sometimes I end up experimenting when really I should just be taking what I can get .
At The Pinball office on Saturday Creech was in the league. It's set up differently,
the ball guide from the pops isn't smooth (I know from previous experience the ball won't bounce to the left flipper and will just roll and drain) and my nudge to clear the sling sent the ball sdtm 😄 but I kept trying, and altering my technique when really in this situation without practice I should have just let the ball hit the flipper and fire it away to get points..


So I realise my issue is knowing when to take risks. I know I can play well and have a decent understanding of flipper skills. But it's knowing when to use them and when to experiment 😄
 
I've just been having a further look at pinball skills videos, and came across this series by Abe Flips.

Well worth a watch (I'd not seen them before), and includes some interesting stuff on nudging, micro-flips etc..

(I'll add the link to my previous post as well)
 
Jib said:
I was just playing TMNT and realised it’s awesome for teaching you to stage flip well. If you can stage flip a triple mondo jackpot on TMNT you’re probably not going to struggle to stage flip on any other modern Stern!
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I had no idea that stage flipping was even possible, it's great to have stuff like this discussed on here, every day is a school day!
 
Alice Cooper definitely improved my accuracy. Not as tight as Houdini and fun enough to keep you coming back for just one more monster battle!
 
Gonzo said:
After 2 hours of Walking Dead, I can safely say that I'm a worse player than yesterday and far more angry.

Quite frankly John Borg can shove his well walker drain where the sun don't shine 🌞
Click to expand...

So, you drain when going for the Well Walker. So does everyone else. Don't go for it! No-one in competition tries to start Well MB as an objective - the points aren't big enough and the risk (as you've found) is just too high.

Josh got so much better when I got TWD - that machine is the single biggest reason for his improvement. He's spent many, many hours playing it, practicing, cursing the machine and lamenting the "What am I supposed to do about that" in a very loud, angry voice. It taught him that some shots just are not worth the risk. It also taught him to move the machine. And move the machine. And move it again! If you don't then you're getting nowhere because any missed shot is danger (and many of the made shots like WW and Prison are more dangerous still). Prison drops from the magnet are great for slap save practice!

It also teaches strategy. Barn is by far the best mode to take first because of the increasing points, and it is a repeatable shot with a mostly predictable return (albeit with the occasional 'oh ****' STDM from the pop bumpers, which he got hit with at EPC after his opponent had got a ton of lovely returns). CDC is also good, great points and safe return to the flipper (if you don't miss). So you start with those and if you get deeper, then all well and good.


C&C said:
How many times do I actively practise these skills? In other words, how often do I approach a game, hit start, and then forget about the score, but simply spend the next 15-20 minutes repeatedly post-passing the ball from one flipper to the other? Then spend 15 minutes just trying alley passes, or 10 minutes just trying to get a single tap pass right (admittedly this one is more achievable on some of the classics than modern Sterns). The answer (for me) was pretty much not at all.

I believe that one of the reasons the top players are so good is that the likes of Craig, Andy Foster, Rich Mallet etc.. do spend time on improving specific skills. Watching the UK Open really brought this home to me when many of the top international players were repeatedly hitting tap passes, live and drop catches effortlessly. This resulted in the ball very rarely being out of control, and hence leading to some great scores. These shots don't come naturally, and I'm pretty certain that hours of practise have gone into refining all these specific skills.
Click to expand...

Agree with everything you said but this bit is definitely true. Again, those specific skills are key to some games, making them consistently gives you confidence to use the skills when it matters.

I rarely try tap passes in competition games as I often mess them up. Josh has seen people doing them and so spent time working on them - on getting Xenon, Josh walked up to it and did 18 in a row, left->right->left and he uses it all the time (I find I'm better with alley passes on it).

I've had an idea for a few years to build a 'training machine' that sets up these skills and challenges you to do them - one day I might find the time to put it together!

StandUpAndFight said:
I would also say the element of luck involved in pinball also muddies the feedback loop between training, playing well and scoring well. I have the same problem with poker, you can be doing the right things but not getting better results, I find that very demotivating and have given up playing for cash now while I still have a roof over my head!
Click to expand...

"The harder I practice, the luckier I get"!

Everyone gets a bad ball, or an unlucky thing happening, but part of playing is minimising the chances of that being the case. Short plunge and get control, or nudge early as the ball returns from the orbit to avoid the slings.

When you watch top players play, they are very rarely totally out of control. Sure they all still have those weird drains, but not that many of them. When they are out of control it's usually just after saving a ball from draining, but control comes pretty quickly as that's the first objective.

When I play badly and have stopped lamenting my bad luck and how the game screwed me with X/Y/Z thing - the usual answer is that actually I missed a shot and/or I failed to get control - the ball was the one in charge and it wants to find its way back to the trough.
 
jonathan said:
Sold my TMNT because it was too frustrating.

GB is either a 3minute game or a 30minute game depending on how well I'm playing!

Both good shouts though
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Yea wouldn’t want turtles unless it’s in a collection but can honestly say never had as much entertainment value from a game. Just makes you want to improve due to the difficulty and get that sucker in co op mode with a few boys and beers and it’s on big time
 
cyberkryten said:
So, you drain when going for the Well Walker. So does everyone else. Don't go for it! No-one in competition tries to start Well MB as an objective - the points aren't big enough and the risk (as you've found) is just too high.

Josh got so much better when I got TWD - that machine is the single biggest reason for his improvement. He's spent many, many hours playing it, practicing, cursing the machine and lamenting the "What am I supposed to do about that" in a very loud, angry voice. It taught him that some shots just are not worth the risk. It also taught him to move the machine. And move the machine. And move it again! If you don't then you're getting nowhere because any missed shot is danger (and many of the made shots like WW and Prison are more dangerous still). Prison drops from the magnet are great for slap save practice!

It also teaches strategy. Barn is by far the best mode to take first because of the increasing points, and it is a repeatable shot with a mostly predictable return (albeit with the occasional 'oh ****' STDM from the pop bumpers, which he got hit with at EPC after his opponent had got a ton of lovely returns). CDC is also good, great points and safe return to the flipper (if you don't miss). So you start with those and if you get deeper, then all well and good.




Agree with everything you said but this bit is definitely true. Again, those specific skills are key to some games, making them consistently gives you confidence to use the skills when it matters.

I rarely try tap passes in competition games as I often mess them up. Josh has seen people doing them and so spent time working on them - on getting Xenon, Josh walked up to it and did 18 in a row, left->right->left and he uses it all the time (I find I'm better with alley passes on it).

I've had an idea for a few years to build a 'training machine' that sets up these skills and challenges you to do them - one day I might find the time to put it together!



"The harder I practice, the luckier I get"!

Everyone gets a bad ball, or an unlucky thing happening, but part of playing is minimising the chances of that being the case. Short plunge and get control, or nudge early as the ball returns from the orbit to avoid the slings.
Click to expand...
I agree, in poker the best players win, in the long term, regardless of luck. My point was it can make it hard to correlate what you are doing right or wrong if in the short term your results aren't always consistent with how well you are playing.
 
cyberkryten said:
So, you drain when going for the Well Walker.
Click to expand...

No, it has a tendency to drain SDTM when it travels past the Well Walker from the pops.

It's okay though it's only here for another month anyway and hopefully that's enough time to sample Horde once.

I appreciate the advice though and I'm sure you're absolutely correct regarding the playing improvement. I'm just not sure that I have it in me to spend ages fighting a machine so as I can get a bit better . . . . . it's just more fun to switch on Batman or Deadpool.
 
Gonzo said:
it's just more fun to switch on Batman or Deadpool
Click to expand...

Pinball should be fun 😄
If a game feels tedious and not fun I struggle to return to it.
A game can be brutal but fun imo.

Personally when I've played TWD at PBR I've enjoyed it, but I'm just playing with no expectations of knowing the rules or getting to horde so I don't really see it as being tough.

I don't understand when people say games are tough, because surely we're all playing the same game no?
I understand some games being less forgiving and having unfair feeds, maybe that applies to TWD
 
David_Vi said:
I understand some games being less forgiving and having unfair feeds, maybe that applies to TWD
Click to expand...

For me that sums it up mate.

I definitely don't find the game fun at all, honestly I'd rather read my book, watch TV, walk the dog or anything else. Usually it's the other way around with pinball which is my leisure pursuit of choice.

Walking Dead and Jackbot definitely have the feel-bad factor for me 😂.

I'm really pleased I sampled it though and I'm determined to give it my best shot . . . . in fact I might have one more game now just to get the blood pressure nice and high before bed.

Edit: Dolly Parton is certainly brutal AND fun
 
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