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Paul

Paul

Staff member
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
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11,593
Location
South Wales
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Toibs
Hi all,

I have been meaning to do an update to the forum T&C's for a while now, and never really gotten around to doing it. Well i finally sat down tonight and have updated a few things since it's been nearly four years since the last one! It's something that should be done reguarly to keep on top of things.

If you see the banner come up re-requesting approval, please take the time to read through and accept if you are happy with what is displayed.

Thanks
Paul
 
I would say it was an attempt at humour after someone getting triggered over the mention of a Mexican worker that has ended up being completely blown out of proportion, the entire tone of the deleted post was misinterpreted.
 
I think it would have been more appropriate for the Mods to just remove the questionable posts and have a quiet word via pm. I am 100% sure Colin didn't intend any offence and he also apologised. While I do totally agreed with the rules and the principles, I do have concern about how this has been handled.
 
I am a lurker and rarely post but I saw Cols post yesterday before it was removed and Col used the words P*k* and Ch***i.

The term “P*k*” has been a subject of controversy and debate, with varying opinions on whether it is racist. While some argue that it is a derogatory racial slur, others contend that its meaning and intent can differ based on context and cultural understanding and that this outrage is another example of creeping pollical correctness. Either way in my opinion a six month ban without any discussion with him is simply wrong.

I had the pleasure of meeting Col at TPF and I can confidently say he does not have a bad bone in his body. I know several people who feel outraged about how this has been dealt with and I for one think the mods should look at this again and have a discussion with Col.
 

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From what I can gather, a very large percentage of the people using this forum are of a certain age or generation and they would have understood the intent of the comment and thought no more of it.

One person flags it up as racist and the forum police go into meltdown with an over the top response.

I don't know Col but he appears to come over as a gentle soul and an all round helpful and nice guy this will affect him badly.
 
Mednec said:
The term “P*k*” has been a subject of controversy and debate, with varying opinions on whether it is racist. While some argue that it is a derogatory racial slur, others contend that its meaning and intent can differ based on context and cultural understanding and that this outrage is another example of creeping pollical correctness. Either way in my opinion a six month ban without any discussion with him is simply wrong.
Click to expand...
Why did you use AI to write this?

Both of those words absolutely are racist.

I don't believe that Col has racist views and I do believe his apology was genuine, but the mods have to treat everyone the same and have a 0 tolerance policy for racism. Otherwise the next person who makes a racist comment and receives a ban will argue that it's unfair and inconsistent because Col 'was allowed to'. It's tough and while I can't speak for the mods I'm sure they didn't make this decision easily.
 
I’m happy to take ownership of this. I ultimately decided that racism was more point worthy than a major personal attack as it wasn’t specifically covered in our points system. It was my decision discussed with the other mods. I’ve included the screenshot below the message that I sent to Colin:

IMG_9468.jpeg

I guess I was naive to think it might end the matter.

If anyone thinks I’m PC or Woke, they really don’t know me.

It is not something I’ve enjoyed even remotely doing and has taken a lot of thought and discussion but If anyone thinks the ban is over the top and wants to throw hate anywhere, throw it my way.
 
The following is all i will say on the matter.

Colin is a well respected member of this forum. As an admin team we discussed this solidly for over five hours yesterday.
There are two trains of thought. One is around what is acceptible on this forum, and another around what may or may not be legal.
There was nothing in the T&C's which stated this, mainly because It wasnt something I had envisaged happening 10+ years ago. And yes, this (and Homophobic comments) were added as part of the update (this was Not the only reason for the update).

Wether anyone likes it or not, there is no such thing as "free speech" any more. You cant just say what you want like used to be accepted practice 40 years ago. This isnt how things work any more, on social media, in the workplace, in real life.

Both terms used are classed as Racist by the UK courts. The way the words have been used over the years has changed their meaning, and they have become damaging and hurtful. Even if the use of them has no intention if hurting or upsetting anybody, they have been used over the years as weapons to hurt or scare people, and can be very painful or threatening to those from those backgrounds.

I'm sure that any decent human wouldn't use those words directly in the face of someone from those backgrounds - So why would it them be acceptible to put them on an open forum, and insult those valued members of our community (even inadvertantly).
 
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I commend that you have acted to stop this from happening. Totally the right thing to do. My concern is there is a big difference between someone intentionally trying to cause offence and someone unintentionally posting something that may cause offence. Both need to be dealt with, but a quiet word in pointing out the error might have been enough in these circumstances.
 
Information on points and Bans is clearly listed on the forum in this post https://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/forum-warning-system-now-in-place.52250/

Maybe all the admins need to re-read that post if they are handing out random amount of points and not knowing if or how long a ban its going to cause as it is clearly listed in there to bans for points totals.

Personally I would have said it was 10 points, it was ill thought out but not directly aimed at anyone.
 
Mednec said:
I am a lurker and rarely post but I saw Cols post yesterday before it was removed and Col used the words P*k* and Ch***i.

The term “P*k*” has been a subject of controversy and debate, with varying opinions on whether it is racist. While some argue that it is a derogatory racial slur, others contend that its meaning and intent can differ based on context and cultural understanding and that this outrage is another example of creeping pollical correctness. Either way in my opinion a six month ban without any discussion with him is simply wrong.

I had the pleasure of meeting Col at TPF and I can confidently say he does not have a bad bone in his body. I know several people who feel outraged about how this has been dealt with and I for one think the mods should look at this again and have a discussion with Col.
Click to expand...

That image is an example of cultural appropriation of Mexican culture.. Please remove it... Jk of course 🤣🤣
 
Fantazia2 said:
Information on points and Bans is clearly listed on the forum in this post https://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/forum-warning-system-now-in-place.52250/

Maybe all the admins need to re-read that post if they are handing out random amount of points and not knowing if or how long a ban its going to cause as it is clearly listed in there to bans for points totals.

Personally I would have said it was 10 points, it was ill thought out but not directly aimed at anyone.
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That list is NOT all-encompassing. Never has been as ALL eventualities could never be covered. They dont mention about a lot of things - that doesnt mean those actions are acceptable in everyday society.

Every time someone gets an infringement we'll add it to the list then. If we want an enviroment where everyone is treated like a 2 year old then by all means, i can do that. If anyone complains I'll point them your way and say it was your idea... awesome...
 
Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but can someone post a link to the new T&Cs please, as I can't seem to find them in the announcements or website suggestions/issues/comments sections?

Yes, I did get a pop-up asking me to agree to the updated T&Cs, which I obviously just clicked "agree" on to get back into the site, without reading them.

I'd just like to review what I've actually agreed to, in the light of just having caught up on some of the most recent discussions.

By the way, @Paul , I do really appreciate the site, and the difficult job it must be to run it.
Also, on the thread "Forum warning system - NOW IN PLACE!" in the announcements section, given its prominence, you might wish to consider updating the 60 points entry:
60 Points - Temporary Ban - Perminent
A ban can't really be both temporary and permanent - it's one or the other.
Also the spelling of "perminent" ought to be "permanent"

Thanks.
 
The world has and is changing during the past decade especially. Being in my mid 50's I absolutely hate certain things that are going on with the world and this country.

Paul and the other moderators have put up rules that they see fit, and if we want to be members - then we have to accept the rules.

We also can not have one rule for one, and one rule for another.

My thoughts on Colin's ban is immaterial - I am not a moderator, I am a user so have no sway.
 
I don't believe the decision to flag and remove the post was wrong at all. Whilst I don't believe Colin meant any malice, the language used was wrong. I do however feel a 6 month ban is too long for a non personal attack. I believe a short period of reflection (say a week or two) would have been more appropriate than this lengthy exclusion.
 
C&C said:
Maybe I'm being a bit thick, but can someone post a link to the new T&Cs please, as I can't seem to find them in the announcements or website suggestions/issues/comments sections?

Yes, I did get a pop-up asking me to agree to the updated T&Cs, which I obviously just clicked "agree" on to get back into the site, without reading them.

I'd just like to review what I've actually agreed to, in the light of just having caught up on some of the most recent discussions.

By the way, @Paul , I do really appreciate the site, and the difficult job it must be to run it.
Also, on the thread "Forum warning system - NOW IN PLACE!" in the announcements section, given its prominence, you might wish to consider updating the 60 points entry:
60 Points - Temporary Ban - Perminent
A ban can't really be both temporary and permanent - it's one or the other.
Also the spelling of "perminent" ought to be "permanent"

Thanks.
Click to expand...
It lives at the bottom of every page in the footer - Listed as "terms and Rules" - link here : https://www.pinballinfo.com/community/help/terms/

I pride myself on it being as clear and honest as i can get it.... There's nothing in there designed to catch anyone out.

Thanks for the heads up on the warning system - I'll ammend and clarify now :)
 
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It's unfortunate that this had led to such a lengthy ban, as I'm sure that the original comment was an attempt a humour, even if it used a lazy stereotype. The fact that there were then 2 more comments along the same lines didn't really help matters. I've no doubt in my mind that Col is not racist but his comments did need addressing.

It is not woke or pc to challenge the use of these words - regardless of whether they were meant to insult or harm - and certainly nothing new.

Who remembers Ron Atkinson calling Marcel Desailly "a lazy n*gger" 20 years ago, effectively ending his TV career? It's unlikely Atkinson would have been called a racist before then, especially after bringing the "Three Degrees", as they were nicknamed, of Regis, Cunningham and Batson to West Brom in the 70s when open racism was rife in general society. But by using those words he perpetuated the use of them.

This is what needs to happen. People need to eradicate those words from their vocabulary altogether so they don't linger around and are picked up and used by other generations.
If they are used in a derogatory way, even when the attempt is humorous, they need challenging - as such I believe David needs commending for doing so.

What needs to happen to try and eradicate racism and other forms of discrimination is people feeling able to call out others on inappropriate behaviour or language without fear of ridicule or repercussions.

When was the last time you saw or heard something in person that you thought was out of order, but didn't challenge it, or even worse laughed along? That's part of the problem, by actively ignoring it you're helping perpetuate it.

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
 
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