Flipper stuck

[Bobbdobalina]

Hi, so I’ve spent a bit of time on this today, I’ve rebuilt the lower 2 flippers and got my cleaning head on and started stripping the playfield.

Anyway flippers, I’ve checked that all three are moving freely and there’s a couple of mm vertical play through the playfield.

Tested all three on the switch matrix and all three optos are registering as are the eos’

Put it in flipper test and the bottom two were fine on pulse and on hold.

However the upper right did nothing. Checked the coil for heat and it was stone cold.

Stumped again, although I did order a fliptronic board…. Just in case

 

[drhex]

Check if you have power at the coil, usually the fat cable should be 70V+ DC. Next step is figuring out if the corresponding TIP-36 is OK, see here https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Solenoid.2C_Flasher.2C_and_Motor_problems. Let us know what you find.

 

[Bobbdobalina]

Check if you have power at the coil, usually the fat cable should be 70V+ DC. Next step is figuring out if the corresponding TIP-36 is OK, see here https://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Solenoid.2C_Flasher.2C_and_Motor_problems. Let us know what you find.

Will do

 

[Bobbdobalina]

Hi, kinda losing the will to live now.

So all of the above and I was making progress. A couple of members said that if flipper opto, eos switches and coils have been eliminated then I should be looking at the fliptronic board.
I’m not confident enough or have enough knowledge to troubleshoot at board level. So I ordered a replacement fliptronic board.

Just swapped it and I’ve got a whole new bunch of problems.

I was very careful taking the connections out taking photos and obviously no power on. The only thing i did notice was the top two pins on the ribbon cable connection on the top left of the board next to the fliptronic we’re bent upwards. So I gently straightened those.
Powered up and I’ve lost the display just got two horizontal lines!!

Next problem…
Loaded up the balls to see if the flipper problem is rectified with the new fliptronic and the results were bitter sweet.
The troublesome top right flipper is working fine now
However, when I coin up the bottom left flipper energizes on it own and is stuck on hold until I drained all the balls to end the game and it released back down.

I’ve be looked at and reseated the connections like 3 time and still no joy.

Anyone wanna buy a sttng?

 

[Bobbdobalina]

So I’ve had a look and the board next to fliptronic is the sound board.
There was sound in the game I coined up but no attract before.

One of the ribbon cables goes from the cpu to the fliptronic then soundboard and ends at the display board.

Is it reasonable to think that the ribbon cable has been unplugged and plugged 1 too many time now and has lost a connection or two?
Or could it be the bent pins?
I don’t know how they bent, must of been me earlier in the week, but they weren’t touching.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

 

[cmrl9]

So I’ve had a look and the board next to fliptronic is the sound board.
There was sound in the game I coined up but no attract before.

One of the ribbon cables goes from the cpu to the fliptronic then soundboard and ends at the display board.

Is it reasonable to think that the ribbon cable has been unplugged and plugged 1 too many time now and has lost a connection or two?
Or could it be the bent pins?
I don’t know how they bent, must of been me earlier in the week, but they weren’t touching.

Any suggestions are much appreciated.

It's most likely because they are bent or have been bent. However when you plug the cable back in they probably straightend themself out. Bending them back wasn't advised.

There is a small possiblilty its the cable, take it out and try it the other way round, what I mean buy this far left end, swap to the far right end. Had a strange problem with LOTR when fitting the pinsound card a similar ribbon cable did a similar thing no display when switching on, wouldn't start couldn't play. Swapped it around and worked, no technical logic to it.

Regarding STTNG *lol* i feel your pain welcome to a gigantic pain in the a**e It's probably one of the most complex machines out there, bear with it, once you replace the parts it will be fine. The initial pain is trying to work out exactly what is wrong with it.

I think it would be helpful to know where it came from, by this I don't mean who you bought it from and at what cost but was it faulty, stored in a shed for 10 years, left out not working for 5 years.

A couple of questions:

1) Where did you get the fliptronics board from? Was it new or reconditioned
2) what happens when you put the original board back in, does the new left flipper problem go away and the original problem return?
3) what pins did you bend or where bent, pic please of the board, point with your finger, someone can then work out what it did or does

I suspect there are all sorts of issues with the boards, for example STTNG can behave strangly if there is a crack or dry soldier joint on one of the circuits, mine kept the return to duty on permently. Not something I was aware of as abnormal behavior but it turned out to be a cracked soldier joint.

You tube video that explains it pretty well:

Google Search

www.google.com

 

[Moonraker]

Put the old board back in and see if it goes back to normal. If it is then try fitting the new one again.

 

[cmrl9]

It's most likely because they are bent or have been bent. However when you plug the cable back in they probably straightend themself out. Bending them back wasn't advised.

There is a small possiblilty its the cable, take it out and try it the other way round, what I mean buy this far left end, swap to the far right end. Had a strange problem with LOTR when fitting the pinsound card a similar ribbon cable did a similar thing no display when switching on, wouldn't start couldn't play. Swapped it around and worked, no technical logic to it.

Regarding STTNG *lol* i feel your pain welcome to a gigantic pain in the a**e It's probably one of the most complex machines out there, bear with it, once you replace the parts it will be fine. The initial pain is trying to work out exactly what is wrong with it.

I think it would be helpful to know where it came from, by this I don't mean who you bought it from and at what cost but was it faulty, stored in a shed for 10 years, left out not working for 5 years.

A couple of questions:

1) Where did you get the fliptronics board from? Was it new or reconditioned
2) what happens when you put the original board back in, does the new left flipper problem go away and the original problem return?
3) what pins did you bend or where bent, pic please of the board, point with your finger, someone can then work out what it did or does

I suspect there are all sorts of issues with the boards, for example STTNG can behave strangly if there is a crack or dry soldier joint on one of the circuits, mine kept the return to duty on permently. Not something I was aware of as abnormal behavior but it turned out to be a cracked soldier joint.

You tube video that explains it pretty well:

Google Search

www.google.com

Final question exactly what have you replaced in the machine recently, I notice you rebuilt the lower two flippers, if you already had a fliptronics board on order personally I would'nt have rebuilt the working two flippers, you might have created new problems. Advise I was given, but ignored for different reasons solve one problem first before changing things, although from my personal STTNG experience I beleive there are multiple problems.

 

[Bobbdobalina]

Hi all, thank you for your continued support with this and I hope you are all having a very merry Christmas.

I’ve swapped the original fliptronic board back into the machine as advised but now unfortunately the game won’t boot up.
On start up the bottom flippers flipped up on hold then released back a couple of playfield lights came on (one being the romulan warbird) and then off again.

Logic is telling me this is all to do with me unplugging and re plugging the connections on the fliptronic.

Have I inadvertently shorted something?
The led on the cpu is no longer flickering which I’m also seeing as a bad sign.

The replacement fliptronic board is a brand new rotten dog board.

 

[Bobbdobalina]

…. In regards to the machine’s history, it was originally bought from liberty games in 2010 being reconditioned but had been in a garage unplayed for the past 5 years.

I bought it in April and payed £1200 so I’m not overly concerned having to spend some money on it.
It’s got a new rotten dog cpu as the original has severe battery damage.

That’s it’s story really apart from also changing both flipper optos and trough opto.

 

[Bobbdobalina]

 

[Bobbdobalina]

…. Picture above shows the top two pins that were bent, since straightened. I had obviously located the connection one row down and so pushed the top pins upwards.
If this is the cause of the new problems I will duly slap myself!

 

[Asiapinball]

…. Picture above shows the top two pins that were bent, since straightened. I had obviously located the connection one row down and so pushed the top pins upwards.
If this is the cause of the new problems I will duly slap myself!

Those pins should be fine.
Make sure that you check you have all the ribbon cables on correctly. It is easy to install them one row off so that half of all the pins are not connected and it's sometimes not easy to see as it's hidden by the ribbon cable particularly the fliptronics cable on the middle 2 of the 4 connectors. This can stop sound and display working.

 

[Asiapinball]

Those pins should be fine.
Make sure that you check you have all the ribbon cables on correctly. It is easy to install them one row off so that half of all the pins are not connected and it's sometimes not easy to see as it's hidden by the ribbon cable particularly the fliptronics cable on the middle 2 of the 4 connectors. This can stop sound and display working.

Maybe I should have said 1 column across not 1 row. You have 4 connectors to check on that cable

 

[Asiapinball]

Maybe I should have said 1 column across not 1 row. You have 4 connectors to check on that cable

You should also double check all the idc connectors. They should all be keyed but sometimes connectors have been changed during repairs particularly on power connectors and in my experience most repairers don't bother with putting the keys in the new connectors. Guilty of that myself. It's then easy to get them 1 row out like you did on the ribbon cable.

 

[Asiapinball]

…. In regards to the machine’s history, it was originally bought from liberty games in 2010 being reconditioned but had been in a garage unplayed for the past 5 years.

I bought it in April and payed £1200 so I’m not overly concerned having to spend some money on it.
It’s got a new rotten dog cpu as the original has severe battery damage.

That’s it’s story really apart from also changing both flipper optos and trough opto.

Bargain.

 

[Asiapinball]

I really suspect the problem is with the connectors being on incorrectly. Sometimes you can be lucky ang getting the connectors wrong does no damage other times it can blow fuses and sometimes it can do real damage. Hopefully you have been lucky. You should check fuses. Next I would check is cracked solder joints on the idc male pins which are easy to reflow but given you have new cpu and fliptronics it's not likely you will have issues with these.

Paul

 

[Asiapinball]

 

[Asiapinball]

Example photo in last post is of how easy it is to get a ribbon cable one column out and it is really difficult to see on the fliptronics and sound board connectors as cable comes out of both sides of the connector. Doing this will stop sound flip or display working depending on which cable is wrong. Example photo is on display board as much easier to see.

 

[cmrl9]

…. In regards to the machine’s history, it was originally bought from liberty games in 2010 being reconditioned but had been in a garage unplayed for the past 5 years.

I bought it in April and payed £1200 so I’m not overly concerned having to spend some money on it.
It’s got a new rotten dog cpu as the original has severe battery damage.

That’s it’s story really apart from also changing both flipper optos and trough opto.

A bargain, I didn’t think it was possible to get a top end Williams (in terms of gameplay) for that price any more.


Ok, so if we look at this logically, the game was switched off 5 years ago because it had problems and the owner couldn't or didn't know how to.

5 years it switched off in a cold place, in my opinion electronics especially temperamental ones like STTNG are bound to develop some sort of problem with the various bits on the boards. From experience I believe mine was stored for a long while and it had problems, some caused by me, others from age, others always there, like the fliptronics board.

It's pretty easy to put the ribbon cables back in wrong, I know I have done it, check these first.

I have personally heard it’s not uncommon for Rottendog boards to come faulty with some soldering needed, its possible your replacement fliptronnic board is one of those.

As you don't have any board experience (me neither, so nothing wrong with that ) I would eliminate these first, you will always be chasing your tail and scratching your head, the other bits are easier to troubleshoot.

1) Get a new ribbon cable
2) get the boards checked by someone. Phil at Pinball heaven is very helpful and should be able to help or Pinball mania, who I believe specialise in Williams games. Both companies are trusted and well respected. Alternatively post a new thread, need fliptronics Williams board, (I would use the original one), Rotten dog CPU board and Williams Power driver board checked. There’s bound to be something wrong with one of them. Even if there isn't it will make it so much easier to troubleshoot as you will then know 100% it’s not the boards
3) before re-fitting the boards check that the diodes on the all the coils are all in the right direction, triple check this. Make sure the banding is the right way round. Check on this forum people will help. If you don't and you plug the boards in, and one has been fitted incorrectly you will damage one of the boards.

I think your wasting your time troubleshooting further until the boards are eliminated. My hunch is there is a problem with one of them, fliptronnics originally and maybe now the CPU, display driver or powerdriver board or all of them

Other more experienced members might disagree and be able to point you in the correct direction, however the reality is, like myself, you have no board experience, you don't want to touch boards so can't eleminate these from the issues.

Unitl you do, you will never get it fixed

I’ll give you £1,300 for it (don't take my offer keep it and preserve you will get there)

This machine will not be fixed quickly, without putting the hours in, be patient and the reward will come of it working and being able to play it and know that you only paid £1200 for it in 2021! That you can def gloat about (when its working!)

 

[cmrl9]

…. Picture above shows the top two pins that were bent, since straightened. I had obviously located the connection one row down and so pushed the top pins upwards.
If this is the cause of the new problems I will duly slap myself!

No I would'nt have thought so looking at the pic, PIcs are so much better

 

[cmrl9]

Look at this thread:

Theatre of Magic - pop bumper locked solid.

Hi, ToM blew fuse F105 on power up., so I did a quick investigation and unplugged J107, now the fuse is OK On power up. With power off, I had a look under the field and two of the pop bumper solanoids are moveing fine but the other is locked rigid. Is this a burnt out pop bumper solanoid? Is it...

www.pinballinfo.com

@replica recommended a board repairer

 

[Bobbdobalina]

You should also double check all the idc connectors. They should all be keyed but sometimes connectors have been changed during repairs particularly on power connectors and in my experience most repairers don't bother with putting the keys in the new connectors. Guilty of that myself. It's then easy to get them 1 row out like you did on the ribbon cable.

Thanks for commenting, I been plugging and unplugging for most of the day it seems as well as double checking.
But after reading your comment I thought may as well triple check and …… boom, there it was as you described only one column plugged in on the sound board. I seriously couldn’t believe it.
It’s in such an awkward position I couldn’t see and only noticed after I virtually climbed on top of the machine!
Thanks for that but I do feel a right plonker now

So the lights have come on and it’s made some sounds but the display is still garbled and the games not booting up!

 

[Asiapinball]

I would put the old fliptronics board back. Check all the fuses. Reconnect the ribbon cables and idc connectors then double check that all connectors are not on one row or one column out and then turn on again. Hopefully this will get back to original problem and then fliptronics board can then be swapped out. My experience of faults occurring at time of doing a repair is that it is because something has been done incorrectly not because the machine happens to develop a coincidental fault. If it doesn't work then it's a matter of looking at the diagnostics leds to see what fault may be before sending boards off . Phil has a good basic write up of diagnostic leds on his pinball heaven website.

 

[Bobbdobalina]

A bargain, I didn’t think it was possible to get a top end Williams (in terms of gameplay) for that price any more.


Ok, so if we look at this logically, the game was switched off 5 years ago because it had problems and the owner couldn't or didn't know how to.

5 years it switched off in a cold place, in my opinion electronics especially temperamental ones like STTNG are bound to develop some sort of problem with the various bits on the boards. From experience I believe mine was stored for a long while and it had problems, some caused by me, others from age, others always there, like the fliptronics board.

It's pretty easy to put the ribbon cables back in wrong, I know I have done it, check these first.

I have personally heard it’s not uncommon for Rottendog boards to come faulty with some soldering needed, its possible your replacement fliptronnic board is one of those.

As you don't have any board experience (me neither, so nothing wrong with that ) I would eliminate these first, you will always be chasing your tail and scratching your head, the other bits are easier to troubleshoot.

1) Get a new ribbon cable
2) get the boards checked by someone. Phil at Pinball heaven is very helpful and should be able to help or Pinball mania, who I believe specialise in Williams games. Both companies are trusted and well respected. Alternatively post a new thread, need fliptronics Williams board, (I would use the original one), Rotten dog CPU board and Williams Power driver board checked. There’s bound to be something wrong with one of them. Even if there isn't it will make it so much easier to troubleshoot as you will then know 100% it’s not the boards
3) before re-fitting the boards check that the diodes on the all the coils are all in the right direction, triple check this. Make sure the banding is the right way round. Check on this forum people will help. If you don't and you plug the boards in, and one has been fitted incorrectly you will damage one of the boards.

I think your wasting your time troubleshooting further until the boards are eliminated. My hunch is there is a problem with one of them, fliptronnics originally and maybe now the CPU, display driver or powerdriver board or all of them

Other more experienced members might disagree and be able to point you in the correct direction, however the reality is, like myself, you have no board experience, you don't want to touch boards so can't eleminate these from the issues.

Unitl you do, you will never get it fixed

I’ll give you £1,300 for it (don't take my offer keep it and preserve you will get there)

This machine will not be fixed quickly, without putting the hours in, be patient and the reward will come of it working and being able to play it and know that you only paid £1200 for it in 2021! That you can def gloat about (when its working!)

I’m 100% in agreement with you on this.
I think I’ll order a new set of ribbon cables from pinball heaven as soon as, and then take it from there.

Getting the boards checked is another good shout. I think half the battle is knowing where your limitations are because I could literally be going round in circles getting nowhere.

I’ll have some warranty on the fliptronic I’d assume but I’ll have a word with the vendor. He’s been super helpful in the past so hopefully we can get there

Thanks for help with this , it’s really appreciated

 

[Asiapinball]

Thanks for commenting, I been plugging and unplugging for most of the day it seems as well as double checking.
But after reading your comment I thought may as well triple check and …… boom, there it was as you described only one column plugged in on the sound board. I seriously couldn’t believe it.
It’s in such an awkward position I couldn’t see and only noticed after I virtually climbed on top of the machine!
Thanks for that but I do feel a right plonker now

So the lights have come on and it’s made some sounds but the display is still garbled and the games not booting up!

Just go back and double check all the ribbon and idc connectors and make sure they are not one row out or one column out on ribbon connectors. Display problems like this can also be the ribbon cable 1 row or column out and also check the one on the back of the display itselff as they can easily come unseated whilst messing around in the backbox with the display face down on the glass.

 

[Bobbdobalina]

I would put the old fliptronics board back. Check all the fuses. Reconnect the ribbon cables and idc connectors then double check that all connectors are not on one row or one column out and then turn on again. Hopefully this will get back to original problem and then fliptronics board can then be swapped out. My experience of faults occurring at time of doing a repair is that it is because something has been done incorrectly not because the machine happens to develop a coincidental fault. If it doesn't work then it's a matter of looking at the diagnostics leds to see what fault may be before sending boards off . Phil has a good basic write up of diagnostic leds on his pinball heaven website.

Trust me I would LOVE to be back at my original flipper problem
I’ll swap the fliptronic board back tomorrow as I’m sick of the sight of ribbon cables!

One good thing has come out of this.
Seeing as I wasn’t able to go any further I’ve been giving it a superficial clean further up the playfield and notice the Borg diverter was jammed.
So I’ve took that apart and now it’s free.
..so I’ve kinda made some progress today

 

[Bobbdobalina]

Look at this thread:

Theatre of Magic - pop bumper locked solid.

Hi, ToM blew fuse F105 on power up., so I did a quick investigation and unplugged J107, now the fuse is OK On power up. With power off, I had a look under the field and two of the pop bumper solanoids are moveing fine but the other is locked rigid. Is this a burnt out pop bumper solanoid? Is it...

www.pinballinfo.com

@replica recommended a board repairer

 

[cmrl9]

I’m 100% in agreement with you on this.
I think I’ll order a new set of ribbon cables from pinball heaven as soon as, and then take it from there.

Getting the boards checked is another good shout. I think half the battle is knowing where your limitations are because I could literally be going round in circles getting nowhere.

I’ll have some warranty on the fliptronic I’d assume but I’ll have a word with the vendor. He’s been super helpful in the past so hopefully we can get there

Thanks for help with this , it’s really appreciated

I agree with Asiapinball and you should check his advice, he is very helpful and knowledable. I'm a newbee.

However, there are two things the original problem, which I'm pretty sure is board related (fixed or not with the replacement) and the second problem after you changed the board, with the flipper permanently engaged when you turned it on. Playing a full game with a fault is asking for problems, you might have indecently damaged one of the things on the board. For example, with my own STTNG, I fitted a coil, however I fitted the diode the wrong way round, it did play, then blew a fuse, then took out the power driver board. A lack of awareness of diodes existence and their function, that I repeated on the LOTR, even though like yourself I triple checked the coils, or thought I had, similar to your cable issue

Follow Asianpinball great and helpful advice first, if no joy, do not switch the machine on, leave alone and get the boards checked

 

[Asiapinball]

It is really hard to see ribbon cables out by 1 column if you can't easily access backbox as you have indicated. If I am working on a machine backbox I usually pull the machine out of the row and have some small steps and a powerful inspection lamp so I can get my face right in the backbox. 50 plus year old eyes don't help either. If it's any consolation I am currently having similar issues on a Bay watch I am rebuilding.

Paul