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Diner trough switch issue

stumblor

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Sep 16, 2018
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Davey Price
Apologies for lack of knowledge, first time getting dirty under the playfield!

So my Diner arrived the other day, looking super hot as they're want to do. It's been in storage for a while waiting for Le Gentleman Mover Martin to pay East London a visit. After a few games I noticed a bit of a weird one - random drains registering mid game. It seemed to happen as a result of other switch hits - spinner, ball lock, right sling and right inlane all seemed to trigger it occasionally, but never consistently. Initially it seemed as though these random indications can be caused by diode failures, but looking at the switch candidates, it didn't really seem to form the usual 'rectangle' pattern in the matrix.

Today I've been playing around with the trough switches in the Edge Test, and Trough 3 isn't registering when i hit it manually.

I jumpered the cables between the row and the column under the playfield, and Trough 3 isn't trigger when I jumper these ones:

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But Trough 3 is triggering when I jumper these ones:

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Soooo I guess this could discount the CPU being the issue?

Does it sound as though I need to replace this switch? And more importantly - could this faulty switch be causing my ball drain issue?
 
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With my minimal experience I'd replace the diode first. I had something similar and thought, yeah switch, it was the diode in my case.
 
Your switches are incorrectly wired. The yellow wire should be extending the green/red wire to each of the switches. Then the diode should go from the tab closest to you to a playfield tag and then pick up the white wire. Your shot is not quite wide enough to see everything. Below is a shot from a similar era pin, but not diner.

2d91d83923751eae9e63247acc8cb6bc.jpg
 
Ok great i think i get it - so it should be more like this?

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Based on Andy's picture this should be going here... Andy doesnt have the Green and Purple wires on either though, not sure why...
 
Sorry @James what are you referring to by 'this'? The area you circled - shouldn't that just be the row lug of the Trough 2 switch --> diode --> playfield tag --> white row wire ? I think that's how it appears in Andys photo?

Edit - think i see what you're getting at now and thjink we're on the same page - de solder the connection you circled, and instead connect yellow wire to the other switch lug?
 
That's right

This doesn't look right either... Why is that green and violet wire there, it isn't on Andy's and should only go to Upper Left Eject, Lower Left Eject. Left Jet, Right Jet, Lower Jet, Bottom Right Kicker (seems to be one on there already) Bottom Left Sling, Spinner. Find where they go and re-attach as required.

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Perhaps they were supposed to be connected to each other as you have two soldered on to the other lug also of the other switch... perhaps erroneously.
 

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Think it's just the photo that makes it look Violet mate - isn't it GRN-RED?
 
Phew! :p

Right well I've got some soldering to do. Thanks fellas!
 
Well that fixed the trough 3 issue but didn't fix the intermiddent drain switch issue 🥺

Should I be checking diode continuity next?
 
Hi,

If someone has made an error like that in one place, there may be another lurking somewhere too. I'd have a look at all the switches, the White/trace 'Row' wires attach to the plain ends of the diodes, the Green/trace 'Column' wires to the switch terminals without the banded end of a diode. By all means check the continuity of diodes, too.

If all seems well with the wiring, try to induce the problem with the glass off, either by playing normally or starting a game and then operating switches as if playing (but don't leave the ball closing a switch while doing so). Keep a picture of where each 'ball' is, i.e. what Trough or Lock switches are closed, and what drop targets are down. If/when the problem crops up, try to 'grab' the state of the switch matrix at the time; not just the immediate cause but things like whether 1 or 2 balls were locked, targets down, etc. In fact, playing normally may be best, since the flipper Lane Change or Solenoid Extender switches may play a part in it. Apologies for being a bit vague, but with something like this the more de**ils that can be pinned down the better.

Btw, if that's the same machine in the larger pictures, the r/h flipper looks poorly - the capacitor for the End-of-Stroke switch seems to have failed, causing spark damage to the points.
 
Have you checked the gap / adjusted the drain switch?

My feeling is that the outhole switch itself is fine - it always fires the trough coil when a ball goes in, and when manually triggered, and in edge test it seems to be solid.
 
Hi,

If someone has made an error like that in one place, there may be another lurking somewhere too. I'd have a look at all the switches, the White/trace 'Row' wires attach to the plain ends of the diodes, the Green/trace 'Column' wires to the switch terminals without the banded end of a diode. By all means check the continuity of diodes, too.

If all seems well with the wiring, try to induce the problem with the glass off, either by playing normally or starting a game and then operating switches as if playing (but don't leave the ball closing a switch while doing so). Keep a picture of where each 'ball' is, i.e. what Trough or Lock switches are closed, and what drop targets are down. If/when the problem crops up, try to 'grab' the state of the switch matrix at the time; not just the immediate cause but things like whether 1 or 2 balls were locked, targets down, etc. In fact, playing normally may be best, since the flipper Lane Change or Solenoid Extender switches may play a part in it. Apologies for being a bit vague, but with something like this the more de**ils that can be pinned down the better.

Btw, if that's the same machine in the larger pictures, the r/h flipper looks poorly - the capacitor for the End-of-Stroke switch seems to have failed, causing spark damage to the points.

Thanks for the advice, I think that tracing through all the rows/columns to each switch and checking connections / continuity sounds like a goer. I have tried playing with the glass off, and manually triggering switches to try and find a pattern, but it really does seem random to me - almost as though it's the vibration that is causing the issue, rather than a random switch indication. Will do some more testing and get back with results.

Thanks everyone for the help so far!
 
Oh I forgot @Jay Walker would you mind explaining what you meant about the r/h flipper? Is this the cap you're talking about?

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Thanks - and just for future reference, how can you tell it's been fried?
 
The capacitor absorbs a back-emf voltage created when the switch opens, cutting out the primary winding. Without it, this sparks across the opening gap of the switch, causing the whitish burn marks. Looking closer, the spur on the flipper crank has caught some too. It's the same principle as on old-fashioned points & condenser car ignition
 
Still trying to debug this weird outhole issue (in between parenting/life/etc)

So basically the symptom is that midway thorugh a ball, the game seems to register an drain - which (correct me if I'm wrong) could only happen if both the outhole and the trough 3 switches fire in sequence?

I'm checking the diodes that are in the 'square' pattern with those switches using a component tester. When checking the trough switch diode, it came up as 'short circuit'. I removed a leg, and tested again and diode tested okay and in range. Put in back on, test again, short circuit. Don't really know the reason for this. When I test other diodes with the switches ON the test comes back as 'unknown', not short, so thinking it can't be a dodgy switch? Any reason why the trough switch might behave differently or have we got some dodgy components do you think?
 
When the switch is not closed the diode is shorted across the normally closed switch terminals. When the switch is operated the normally closed contacts open making the diode active and the normally open contacts closed completing the circuit with the now active diode in the circuit.

The other switches are using solder tags instead of an unused switch terminal.
 
Okay, that makes sense, thanks. :)

Sorry more noob questions - when testing the diode with a meter (without taking the leg off) and activating the switch, as per..


The diodes on column 2, black on the banded side I get a reading of .465 and red on the banded side I get .58.. I would have expected red on banded to get a reading of zero?
 
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Now now, let's not start pointing fingers :p

Better to treat it as an opportunity for me to get a better appreciation of the switch matrix... at your guys expense x
 
Your more than welcome to come and have a look at mine before it goes off to be refurbed, if that will helps at all.
 
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The diodes on column 2, black on the banded side I get a reading of .465 and red on the banded side I get .58.. I would have expected red on banded to get a reading of zero?

Scratch all that - I didn't realise you needed to have the switches disconnected on the main board 🙄
 
Still trying to debug this weird outhole issue (in between parenting/life/etc)

So basically the symptom is that midway thorugh a ball, the game seems to register an drain - which (correct me if I'm wrong) could only happen if both the outhole and the trough 3 switches fire in sequence?

I'm checking the diodes that are in the 'square' pattern with those switches using a component tester. When checking the trough switch diode, it came up as 'short circuit'. I removed a leg, and tested again and diode tested okay and in range. Put in back on, test again, short circuit. Don't really know the reason for this. When I test other diodes with the switches ON the test comes back as 'unknown', not short, so thinking it can't be a dodgy switch? Any reason why the trough switch might behave differently or have we got some dodgy components do you think?
'
I think the outhole switch on a game like Diner, i.e. with storage on the 'ramp', is programmed simply to kick the outhole coil; it wouldn't in itself cause a drain sequence. Does the outhole coil kick when this problem occurs? If not, the outhole switch may not be involved
 
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