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Diner trough switch issue
- Thread starter stumblor
- Start date
Will look at mine and report back !
Do you have it in diode test ?Scratch all that - I didn't realise you needed to have the switches disconnected on the main board
With out any disconnections I get about .590 one way and no readings the other way , that is on the 3 trough switches and the micro cherry switch (black one ) I get .001 both ways .
OP
OP
Yep that's the same for me in diode test, with connections and without engaging the switches. It was only when I was engaging the switch (without disconnecting from the boards) that I was getting readings going both ways.
With the flippers, is the round brown thing on the flipper leaf switch the flipper diode?
For some reason I cannot take a pic on the iPad or phone as it says file to big
Out of space on your device ?
Not sure about the brown thing
Do you mean the yellow cap ?which connects to the flipper Eos switch and the to the coil?
O crap !!
OP
OP
Ah.
(he says, trying to look like he knows what the f is going on)
Soo, any clue where the flipper diodes might be hiding?
Edit: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flipper-capacitors#post-3208832 -- maybe on the EOS switch itself, under the playfield?
(he says, trying to look like he knows what the f is going on)
Soo, any clue where the flipper diodes might be hiding?
Edit: https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/flipper-capacitors#post-3208832 -- maybe on the EOS switch itself, under the playfield?
OP
OP
Okay so the behaviour manifests once every 10 games or so - which is that a drain will register mid ball.
It usually happens as a result of another switch being hit - the spinner, the lower left eject, the right inline, the right sling, and the left flipper. The flipper is the one that seems to be causing it the most. I should also point out that it has sometimes happened when it appears that no switches are closed (other than those that are always closed, ie: trough 1 and 2, up/down left ramp).
So far we've resolved the wiring issue with trough 3 (which now registers in the edge test) and I've checked all the trough diodes (all ok), the shooter lane (the diode leg was loose which I fixed).
I've been reading about random switch indications due to faulty diodes:
pinballrehab.com
Which is why I've been heading in this direction. Can't seem to isolate the 'square' pattern based on the evidence so far though.
One other thing to note is that turning on the game sometimes flips the breaker in my pinshed - so possibly a grounding issue there as well? Or is that just par for the course with pinballs?
It usually happens as a result of another switch being hit - the spinner, the lower left eject, the right inline, the right sling, and the left flipper. The flipper is the one that seems to be causing it the most. I should also point out that it has sometimes happened when it appears that no switches are closed (other than those that are always closed, ie: trough 1 and 2, up/down left ramp).
So far we've resolved the wiring issue with trough 3 (which now registers in the edge test) and I've checked all the trough diodes (all ok), the shooter lane (the diode leg was loose which I fixed).
I've been reading about random switch indications due to faulty diodes:
Pinball Rehab - Switch Matrix - Theory and Troubleshooting
Pinball Rehab is an online pinball community with extensive resources on pinball maintenance, repair and restoration.
pinballrehab.com
Which is why I've been heading in this direction. Can't seem to isolate the 'square' pattern based on the evidence so far though.
One other thing to note is that turning on the game sometimes flips the breaker in my pinshed - so possibly a grounding issue there as well? Or is that just par for the course with pinballs?
Par for the course, uprate you breaker in the pinshed to a higher amp draw (want to say C type but could be talking ********)...
Is it actually an issue with each of those switches or just one, have you replicated with each.
I would start a game up and test these switches constantly until replication and confirm.
Is it actually an issue with each of those switches or just one, have you replicated with each.
I would start a game up and test these switches constantly until replication and confirm.
Does sound like one or more phantom switch to me !
Also I think you maybe referring to the diodes on the flipper coil ?
Could also be a few switches to sensitive maybe ?
Also I think you maybe referring to the diodes on the flipper coil ?
Could also be a few switches to sensitive maybe ?
Hi, sorry for being away for a while (and causing confusion re. flipper diodes/switch matrix)
The left and right flippers each have a 'Lane Change'/Status Report/High Score Initial Entry capability. This is achieved by connecting into the switch matrix, No. 57 for Right and No. 58 for Left. Older games* had a leaf switch w/diode spurred onto the End-of-Stroke switch(es), but Diner has 'solid state' Lane Change switches, tiny opto-coupler chips on the Inter-connect pcb, which put them safe from short-circuit risk of the high voltage used on the flipper itself.
The drain sequence would occur with closure of the relevant trough switch. As I wondered, the outhole switch seems to be innocent here.
You could use 'Switch Levels' to chase this. It lists all switches read as closed, so using it would show, f'r instance, Trough 1 and/or 2, an energised flipper, Sub-playfield Lock, Ramp Status, etc, as trial conditions changed. The object being to find an appearance of an open trough switch
* Firepower through to mid system 11 games like Cyclone, though a few games (e.g. Swords of Fury, Taxi) have micro-switches attached to the flipper buttons
The left and right flippers each have a 'Lane Change'/Status Report/High Score Initial Entry capability. This is achieved by connecting into the switch matrix, No. 57 for Right and No. 58 for Left. Older games* had a leaf switch w/diode spurred onto the End-of-Stroke switch(es), but Diner has 'solid state' Lane Change switches, tiny opto-coupler chips on the Inter-connect pcb, which put them safe from short-circuit risk of the high voltage used on the flipper itself.
The drain sequence would occur with closure of the relevant trough switch. As I wondered, the outhole switch seems to be innocent here.
You could use 'Switch Levels' to chase this. It lists all switches read as closed, so using it would show, f'r instance, Trough 1 and/or 2, an energised flipper, Sub-playfield Lock, Ramp Status, etc, as trial conditions changed. The object being to find an appearance of an open trough switch
* Firepower through to mid system 11 games like Cyclone, though a few games (e.g. Swords of Fury, Taxi) have micro-switches attached to the flipper buttons
OP
OP
Not at all mate - because the issue always seemed to happen due to shots from the left flipper, I started to think that it may have been the culprit (rather than the switches at the end of the shot) which is why I was investigating in that area.
Thanks that's good info, I'll give it a try
Was debugging earlier today and was replicating fairly consistently by having a ball in lock (lower eject) and then hitting the upper eject with the second ball. Which made my think it could be one of the switches/diodes around there. I tested those and checked orientation, all seemed okay - in the process bending one of them back away from the switch a bit. After not finding anything turned back on and resumed testing and then couldn't replicate. I possibly might have fixed a short by bending the diode? Will do some more testing later tonight.
Thanks for all the help once again everyone!
Seems to be an awful lot wrong with this. I repeat my original advice - get in contact with the person you bought it off.
Please dont be offended at this, but you could actually be doing more damage than good by attempting to repair things yourself if you do not really understand how the switch matrix etc work.
May be worth reaching out to someone on pinside and ask them for a photp of the switches on the trough. I would also just change out the diodes and test the switches with a multimeter whilst disconnected.
The little discs on the flipper switches are capacitors. A lot of people remove these but they are there for a reason!
Could be worth giving a pinball engineer a call. Sadly I do not go into London these days but there are people who do.
You could be running round in circles for weeks and it would save you headaches.....
Please dont be offended at this, but you could actually be doing more damage than good by attempting to repair things yourself if you do not really understand how the switch matrix etc work.
May be worth reaching out to someone on pinside and ask them for a photp of the switches on the trough. I would also just change out the diodes and test the switches with a multimeter whilst disconnected.
The little discs on the flipper switches are capacitors. A lot of people remove these but they are there for a reason!
Could be worth giving a pinball engineer a call. Sadly I do not go into London these days but there are people who do.
You could be running round in circles for weeks and it would save you headaches.....
OP
OP
Thanks, and appreciate all that - however to be honest I relish the challenge of being able to fix it myself and want to be able to do so going forward, even if it means making a few stumbles along the way. I've received some photos from the underside of @Andypc 's diner (thanks Andy) which has certainly helped and have been going through all the switches and diodes with a meter, checking orientation or diodes and wiring positions etc. Tbh the machine is in great shape - outside of the mis-wiring (which wasn't causing any play issues that I could tell, and was an easy fix) and this phantom switch issue, it's in great condition. I back the seller, and am sure that this either cropped up during the 6 months in storage prior to me getting it, or just wasn't noticed due to it being an intermittent fault.
Didn't check the switch gaps yet as these all seems fine in the edge test when triggered manually and with a ball (and i'm heading more in the direction of it being non trough related anyway), but did a bit of thumping - to no avail.
HOWEVER, when checking the eject switches and diodes the other day, I did notice that one of the diodes was pressed up rather close to the body of the switch, which looked like a potential short, so i bent it back a bit and tested. After switching the machine on after that - I haven't had the issue appear since. It's been about a week so didn't want to call it fixed, but the issue was appearing relatively frequently before (once every few games) and we've played maybe 30+ games since. If this was the cause, my thinking is that the eject mech when engaged was shorting on the diode leg.
Of course now that I've actually verbalised it..
just happened again!!
OP
OP
Woop woop think I've finally solved it!
100XP up for grabs for the first person to notice:
To be honest I should have noticed it a lot sooner, but got a bit sidetracked thinking it was a phantom switch!
100XP up for grabs for the first person to notice:
To be honest I should have noticed it a lot sooner, but got a bit sidetracked thinking it was a phantom switch!
Actuator stuck down ?
