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Attitudes on the forum....

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Paul

Paul

Staff member
Joined
Oct 5, 2012
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11,575
Location
South Wales
Alias
Toibs
Hi everyone,

It seems more and more recently that I (or one of the other Admins) have to come along and have a go at people for their language and attitude towards others. People seem to think that it's ok to come here and openly attack people.

Please be aware that this is NOT directed at any one person - however has been sparked by a number of events recently on here.

As those of you who know me will be aware, i will NOT stand for personal attacks. Yes you can tell someone that their price is extorsionate - you can tell someone that you dont agree with them - there is sucha thing as a healthy debate. But abuse is a completely different thing.

I am fed up of coming on here and having to read such posts, threats and intimidation.

If you decide that you will carry this out, please be prepared to find yourself banned with no explanation.

Many thanks.
 
I fully agree Paul and it was truly disgraceful the barrage of abuse you got
But most of this is brought on by people provoking others on eBay or other sites over there stupid pricing there is absolutely no reason for people to do this just leave them too it
Again we have it on here too with prices we recently had a vote on locking down sales posts but the vote went 98% not to so are own worst enemy really
 
The last two bits of abuse seemed to be from new members. One was the virtual pinball guy who was selling junk, and the other to the bloke who 'sold stuff to people who have more money than sense' who was very offensive to you Paul. Two of these in less than a week is not normal practice on here gladly.

Not only should the user be banned (that you have already said) - the thread should go, as well as any other comments that user has put on the group. Or at least rename them 'banned user' as I have seen on some old posts I have looked thru.

Of course we all disagree on a lot of things here, but 99% of people do not get offensive. We do know its personal opinions clashing.

Can I perhaps suggest a 'rule' you need to either donate to the site £20, or have so many 'points' before you will allow you to post on the for sale forum. Or earn the points from contributing normally say over at least a two week period? I know it sounds complicated but I am sure that it could be implemented. For instance that guy who was selling the awful visual pinballs would not of put any money into the site if he had sold 10 of them!

Anyhow - just my 2 cents as they say. Also @Paul - sent you a pm last night bud. Let me know......
 
CHRIS B PINBALLS said:
I fully agree Paul and it was truly disgraceful the barrage of abuse you got
But most of this is brought on by people provoking others on eBay or other sites over there stupid pricing there is absolutely no reason for people to do this just leave them too it
Again we have it on here too with prices we recently had a vote on locking down sales posts but the vote went 98% not to so are own worst enemy really
Click to expand...

With all due respect Chris, but I think we need to be careful about placing the blame for what has happened with the provocateurs (full disclosure - I’m one of them). To put it in a larger context, there seems to be a current trend of saying that some extraordinary, outrageous or violent reaction to something is somehow explainable because the person was provoked. Poking fun at someone for a ridiculously overpriced pin should result in the pokee being made fun of for their ridiculous looking porn tash. If it had ended with that, it would have been hilarious. But we know how it ended up.

With regards to the vote - it’s been raised before that people feel a responsibility to ‘out’ blatant price gougers. I think that’s fair enough. I would imagine someone would feel pretty let down if they bought a robocop for 2-3k only to find out that people who could have saved them from a rip didn't do so because they feared retaliation.

Only my views - as always - and apologies for taking an opposing view Chris you’re one of the nicest people on the forum and an asset to the community so no offence meant 🙏
 
I am not offended if someone said to me and they do on my super mint stuff that I can buy 2 tafs for the price you are selling yours for then that’s their opinion I don’t kick off I really don’t care
But on the other hand I see stuff that comes up for sale on here that I think is way to much but I don’t comment it’s not my place to do so I just wouldn’t buy it
Although social media is a great thing it does bring many problems with it
 
Difference being Chris - you sell pins at a good price with people knowing and accepting what condition they are in. You have always been honest and straight up with people.

What I have an issue with is people selling machines blatantly trying to rip people off (especially to the tune of a couple of grand!).
 
stumblor said:
With all due respect Chris, but I think we need to be careful about placing the blame for what has happened with the provocateurs (full disclosure - I’m one of them). To put it in a larger context, there seems to be a current trend of saying that some extraordinary, outrageous or violent reaction to something is somehow explainable because the person was provoked. Poking fun at someone for a ridiculously overpriced pin should result in the pokee being made fun of for their ridiculous looking porn tash. If it had ended with that, it would have been hilarious. But we know how it ended up.

With regards to the vote - it’s been raised before that people feel a responsibility to ‘out’ blatant price gougers. I think that’s fair enough. I would imagine someone would feel pretty let down if they bought a robocop for 2-3k only to find out that people who could have saved them from a rip didn't do so because they feared retaliation.

Only my views - as always - and apologies for taking an opposing view Chris you’re one of the nicest people on the forum and an asset to the community so no offence meant 🙏
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Paul said:
Difference being Chris - you sell pins at a good price with people knowing and accepting what condition they are in. You have always been honest and straight up with people.

What I have an issue with is people selling machines blatantly trying to rip people off (especially to the tune of a couple of grand!).
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Ye I 100% agree I think most people on here are pretty clued up with prices but on other places then yes you may get someone who gets bit
I have been to a few hld pins to do repairs and people have really been stung and I agree it’s unfair but it’s same with most things it’s just the way of the world
 
I think prices for pinballs is an odd one.
I dont have any other route to purchase them other than the usual route. Forum ,Ebay , online sellers etc
Unlike Chris B pinball who has a buisness in the scene.
I dont think comparisons with Chris's price range and my price range are the same when buying.
I may be selling my BOP which I paid £1495 for .
It was a mess and Ive spent a lot of money and time doing it up.
Being considered a low budget pin may spark a few comments on the price I will be asking for it?
How do you tackle that one
 
I do not think that any issue here is prices on most the machines advertised.

A machine is worth however much somebody is prepared to pay. If they are priced too high, they wont sell - unless someone has more money than sense. In that case those sort of people will go to a pinball supplier/dealer who has a proper site. Mr Rich Footballer wont buy from here or facebook marketplace.

Isn't this about people offending others in a serious manner?
 
Porn tashes rule but my wife was giving me grief for my Ron Jeremy avatar so had to change so its my psycho dog for now☹
@Vimtoman I guess when you list what work you have done and parts you have changed/fitted it should justify the price, FT just sold on eBay for £3150 that had cab redone but nothing special. If somebody wants it then they pay or try to buy another!
 
stumblor said:
@Pick Holder Personal attacks yes - but all the recent incidents have been sparked by for sale threads and comments re price
Click to expand...

Gotcha mate !

Just do what I said - dont let newcomers post games for sale - unless they pay into the site or be active for a period of time.

Selling on here is a privilege - not a taken.
 
Pick Holder said:
I do not think that any issue here is prices on most the machines advertised.

A machine is worth however much somebody is prepared to pay. If they are priced too high, they wont sell - unless someone has more money than sense. In that case those sort of people will go to a pinball supplier/dealer who has a proper site. Mr Rich Footballer wont buy from here or facebook marketplace.

Isn't this about people offending others in a serious manner?
Click to expand...

I think it started with people un happy with prices others were selling Pinballs , Thats what i picked up on with the first few comments.
 
M4carp said:
Porn tashes rule but my wife was giving me grief for my Ron Jeremy avatar so had to change so its my psycho dog for now☹
Click to expand...

Couldn't you borrow @cooldan 's boob wobblage instead? Boobs or Ron, one of the other or I'm banning you and your dog.

I don't think many of us would be offended by, "Ouch, that feels over-priced mate" were it a forum member selling a pin on here.

I spose stuff is only a rip off if you know the price the current buyer got it for.
If for example I picked up an Addams for £100 and sold it for £1K people would snatch my hand off and probably not complain that I was making x10 my original outlay. If I felt I was still getting a bargain then I'm happy, they're happy. I rarely get anything cheap but as long as it's fair then that's fine.

There are things on all forums which drive me mad but I'm not opening that can of worms..... no sir.
 
There’s another thing I don’t think is cricket.
Advertising a pin as Mint when it clearly ain’t.
I think it’s unfair.
I know people have different interpretations of Mint but to me - Mint is supposed to be...well - Mint .......and shouldn’t have damaged cab etc.....unless this is pointed out in photos.
Just my 2 bobs worth.
Should there be a forum Sales Glossary to abide by? For example:
Fair ***Condition Descriptive***
Good “ “
Very Good “ “
Excellent “ “
Mint “ “
As New “ “
Brand New “ “
NIB “ “
This Site Supporters with relevant expertise could formulate the above for the sellers to abide by perhaps?
That way it will keep the expectation level realistic?
So when selling a Pin tag it with the appropriate condition header?
 
1). I suspect most of the grief on the forum has also come from people who are bellends in real life as well
2) a grading system is a hard thing to actually use in practice. I’ve got an areosmith with a great playfield and cab. How ever the back has a groove where it has been stood tombstoned. Is it “mint” or “players condition” due to this? Personally I couldn’t really care less about anything I can’t see when pushed against a wall but can understand why someone else might if they spend thousands on it.

3). Anyone who is reduced to slinging insults such as “pedo” etc at someone else has clearly lost all reason and any higher ground.
 
Pick Holder said:
Just do what I said - dont let newcomers post games for sale - unless they pay into the site or be active for a period of time.

Selling on here is a privilege - not a taken.
Click to expand...

Whoops I fell into that category, joined and almost immediately listed wanted and then for sale....we’re not all bad you know 😇 I don’t know the history (too new) but agree about being a privilege so far it’s helped me buy and sell in just a few weeks of membership 👍
 
Sako-TRG said:
There’s another thing I don’t think is cricket.
Advertising a pin as Mint when it clearly ain’t.
I think it’s unfair.
I know people have different interpretations of Mint but to me - Mint is supposed to be...well - Mint .......and shouldn’t have damaged cab etc.....unless this is pointed out in photos.
Just my 2 bobs worth.
Should there be a forum Sales Glossary to abide by? For example:
Fair ***Condition Descriptive***
Good “ “
Very Good “ “
Excellent “ “
Mint “ “
As New “ “
Brand New “ “
NIB “ “
This Site Supporters with relevant expertise could formulate the above for the sellers to abide by perhaps?
That way it will keep the expectation level realistic?
So when selling a Pin tag it with the appropriate condition header?
Click to expand...
Don't forget Peachy.
 
I think the fundamental problem with ridiculous asking prices is that they insult potential buyers. They also waste potential buyers' time.

Having been insulted by the time waster seller it is unlikely that all potential buyers will be able to keep schtum about it. This comes from two angles- 1 the annoyance already felt by the individual and 2 a desire to save others from similar annoyance

The guy on facebook with the Space Jam, Robocop and BK2K for £7.5k for instance. Not only asking over 2x fair value but the seller wanted the buyer to take all three.

I do my best to keep schtum and turn the other cheek when I see overpriced games, but this was so ridiculous I called it out on Facebook - politely I feel. "BIG price for those three".
 
It’s a difficult subject for sure, compounded by the fact that there is a mixture of people on here including people for whom pinball restoration and selling is their business.

On the one hand someone like @CHRIS B PINBALLS who is actually putting in the graft and everyone on here knows that the person who buys it will be happy regardless of the advertised price, but that’s because people know him by reputation. Someone coming on here cold to buy their first pinball doesn’t know him (or anyone else) from Adam.

Someone else not as well known as Chris, making the same claims about condition and offering for a similar price, what happens if people know it’s not what it seems? Do members have a duty to point things out? Is there a danger of tribalism with pinball restorers/businessmen on here? (people talking down other people’s restoration work because they’re mates with X)

Then you have someone like that guy who came on here just trying to resell other people’s pins at a markup, or that V-pin guy flogging Alibaba stuff, i.e both really low grade salesmanship. I think in instances like that it’s right that they get called out by others.

There’s no simple answer though, unless you flat out ban discussion on pricing, or thread ****ting, but in both those situations we could’ve ended up with members on here being ripped off and wondering why no one warned them.
 
I can't imagine people who have been here long get up to that sort of stuff but I guess It can happen at anytime from anyone. Pinball invokes such passion its entirely normal to get people raging.

As for pricing, i'm going with keeping my opinions to myself, especially in peoples for sale threads. I come from a time where they were all easily affordable so its hard for me to get my head around current pricing, but if you want to play, you have to pay.
 
Surely any item be it a Car, Boat, M.Cycle, Pinball, is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it! Provided the item for sale is honestly presented, It is up to any potential buyer to inspect and check the item before making an offer or parting with cash. I make no secret of the fact I sell Pins for high sums. Most times I get between 90 ~100% of the asking price but occasionally prices drop if unsold. It really isn't anyone else's business what a seller is asking. Equally making silly comments about a seller or pin just degrades the whole reason for this forum. As my Grandad used to say... "if you cant say something nice / positive, say Nowt!
 
AndyB53 said:
Surely any item be it a Car, Boat, M.Cycle, Pinball, is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it! Provided the item for sale is honestly presented, It is up to any potential buyer to inspect and check the item before making an offer or parting with cash. I make no secret of the fact I sell Pins for high sums. Most times I get between 90 ~100% of the asking price but occasionally prices drop if unsold. It really isn't anyone else's business what a seller is asking. Equally making silly comments about a seller or pin just degrades the whole reason for this forum. As my Grandad used to say... "if you cant say something nice / positive, say Nowt!
Click to expand...

You are dead right - Something is worth what someone will pay for it. If it doesnt sell... it will need to be reduced until it finds it's level.. and we are seeing that on some machines now.
BUT
If someone says "I'm selling a TAF for 7K, and the reason for this is because new PF, completely refurbed top to bottom, new ramps, Pinsound etc etc" then that's fine to me.
If someone says "I'm selling a TAF for 7K, standard wear" then they are taking the ****.

That's the difference.

I refrain from commenting on here mainly because it's the norm. But there ARE machines that i have seen for sale on here where i have thought "that's just taking the mickey".

There was a big discussion about this recently on here - i am comfortable now that if someone thinks someone has overpriced their machine then they will probably pipe up, and it is recognised that the seller would be able to justify this, or just not bite/respond. I mean - you are selling a machine... Sell it!! :D

With prices that have been on a high over the last 3 years, there will become a point where the prices will drop (I would argue we are starting to see it on some machines recently), and people will try to sell their pins for the same price the bought - so there will be more of this coming up!

New sales system on here is STILL in the final stages, and hoping to be able to throw that out for a TRIAL to Site Supporters soon to give it a bashing before unleashing it to all.
 
It'll be good to have a sales system idc as at least this will provide a structured/perhaps better informed basis for discussion. Accept that pin condition ranking will remain difficult/highly subjective but just having to comply with a simple description checklist backed up with a min set of photos will be helpful imho. I know the UK market is a lot thinner than the USA but I think we should look to emulate what Pinside do in publishing actual/median historic pricing per game. It's never going to be perfect but it at least provides a benchmark to debate around. And like most other assets, the achievable selling prices of pins will trend up/down over time so we need to just accept this as well as the fact that sometimes people have good reason for wanting to genuinely try to recover relatively high costs (not profit expectation) that they have put into machines. The downside of 'open to all' internet based forum/social media sites is that you don't really get to choose your correspondents and will therefore almost inevitably wind up with all corners of society represented and the [sometimes caustic] behaviour/attitude/language that comes with that. But it takes 'two to tango' so even though some reactions crossed the line of common decency...……......…prodding a bear even for seemingly good reason is still the starting point!
 
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