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The OFFICIAL LICENSED 'moans about pricing' thread

We have to wait for code 1.0 and let these pins mature
Look at bond its transformed from its original release
I still take code all day over gimmicks as they wear fast
Pinball taking a new direction now as in more immersion and storytelling
I agree they are stripped out (stern)been the obvious ones
GZ was fleshed out day one mainly from covid having more time to polish it from what I
Have gathered
just,wondering if we all sit on no nib where will this market go and will prices
Eventually even out as less pins mean more demand
I bet there's not too many jaws and bond come up 2nd hand people are sitting tight now
Prem are even more of a risk for nib buyers
Just my penny worth
 
The problem is really well built and designed pins from the 90s are very much still in circulation, some are in fantastic condition and can command NIB or nearly new values. Even WH2O can be 4-5k and you can't buy any decent sub 2k

Sought after games like Tron, TWD and LOTR from the '10s can have 5-6k plus values.

So if my '23 STh which cost a total of 8.5k with the UV kit would lose me 2k if I sold it - I just wouldn't sell it.

Well, maybe in 20 years - in which case I probably wouldn't lose anything on it.
 
To be fair it's only really a problem for Stern. I'm certainly not refusing to buy NIB . . . . market forces just dictate that I will be more cautious and I have more choice.

A Stern pro is actually excellent value in the US. However, the LE's look a bit poorly made compared to a Lebowski, Elton, Labyrinth and other stuff.

If I'm lucky I'll get one NIB every 18 months, the next one is Pulp and then I might save myself for BTTF.

I'm not against buying Stern at all, but they'd have to produce something better than the competition to get my money.
 
Gonzo said:
To be fair it's only really a problem for Stern. I'm certainly not refusing to buy NIB . . . . market forces just dictate that I will be more cautious and I have more choice.

A Stern pro is actually excellent value in the US. However, the LE's look a bit poorly made compared to a Lebowski, Elton, Labyrinth and other stuff.

If I'm lucky I'll get one NIB every 18 months, the next one is Pulp and then I might save myself for BTTF.

I'm not against buying Stern at all, but they'd have to produce something better than the competition to get my money.
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I'm actually pretty positive about the outcome, Monopolies are never good for the buyer and Stern had there own way for too long, being the default option for years.
Lacklustre releases, missing features and unfinished code are not good enough from a market leader, history is littered with dead companies who got lazy and thought they would be no1 forever, I really hope this competition leads to better games from everyone.

Trying to rank current games....

Top game (ignoring cost): Elton has to be in with a shout
Best value: probably Scooby
Best theme: gotta be PF
Best looking: Labyrinth looks great IMO
Humour/fun: GTF nails 90s light hearted pinball

Only place I think Jaws might edge the others is shots, but its hard to see it being better than Godzilla no matter what they do with it. In some ways Sterns biggest problem are the previous Elwin games that are readily available on the 2nd hand market.
 
Chaggers said:
We have to wait for code 1.0 and let these pins mature
Look at bond its transformed from its original release
I still take code all day over gimmicks as they wear fast
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The problem is first impressions are REALLY important. I played a bunch of Bond in Funland when it first came out and was unimpressed, to say the least.

Then, a couple of months ago, @MadMonzer had a go at Bond for the first time, and really enjoyed it because - of course - the code had matured by then. The problem is that, superficially, it looks like the exactly same pin as the mediocre one I first played, and it’s very hard to change your mind and revisit a pin based on a negative first impression.

After all, none is going to walk into a barcade and think “Hmm, maybe I’ll just play that mediocre game again to see if it’s gotten better in the last three months.”

The solution, of course, is for Stern to release pins with finished (or near-finished) code…

And, if they don’t do that, I do think Godzilla might be a high watermark for them.

Chaggers said:
just,wondering if we all sit on no nib where will this market go and will prices
Eventually even out as less pins mean more demand
I bet there's not too many jaws and bond come up 2nd hand people are sitting tight now
Prem are even more of a risk for nib buyers
Just my penny worth
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I’m with @Gonzo here. I’m not sitting on no NIB. I’m genuinely considering whether to fork out megabucks for an Elton John right now because we’re really enjoying the one we have here (the same prototype @Gonzo had, I think) and will miss it a lot when it leaves. Being totally honest, the only barrier to us buying one will be price - we have stuff to do on the house as well.

Thing is, I don’t need to look at Jaws. I have much better other options than “buy a Jaws and wait for seven months to see if it gets good”. Because I don’t have tonnes of space, it might not, and I have two other Elwins that are a just lot better right now. There aren’t that many people who have the space for every Elwin anyhow, or who change Spike 2 pin every year, so - to be honest - if I wanted another Elwin, I’d look at IMDN before Jaws.
 
I think one of the biggest issues is how much Stern's margins on the LE have increased.


Metallica Pro at $5000 vs $7500 for the LE in 2013.

Fast forward to Jaws.


Jaws Pro at $7000 vs $13500 for LE.

Margin on LE gone from a 50% increase on pro to 92%.

And really, other than the new LCD screen, not a lot of difference in a 2013 pin vs 2024 pin.
 
Replay said:
I think one of the biggest issues is how much Stern's margins on the LE have increased.


Metallica Pro at $5000 vs $7500 for the LE in 2013.

Fast forward to Jaws.


Jaws Pro at $7000 vs $13500 for LE.

Margin on LE gone from a 50% increase on pro to 92%.

And really, other than the new LCD screen, not a lot of difference in a 2013 pin vs 2024 pin.
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lcd screen is probably cheaper than a dmd display
 
Happypin said:
Well said @Chris P
I will certainly miss this game when goes on Wednesday but most of all, having people over and enjoying P.F. meeting new people on here has been just fantastic, just what the doctor ordered.

Once again big thanks to Neil and Phil for making this happen, Gonzo for the delivery.

It’s been great.
Alan
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We can moan or just discuss pricing all we want but things like this or moments with friends, family or just by yourself fully immersing yourself into a game and forgetting whatever real crap you have going on is why pinball is great.

Reading this and just playing some games on foo and DP myself, which made me smile at some stupid call-outs and crazy ball paths. Hoping I can continue to enjoy the hobby for a long time whatever happens to prices.
 
David_Vi said:
The animations on DMDs were special and must have been time consuming. I miss them.
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I’m 100% with you on this one. DMDs with original animations have a charm that LCD displays will never match. I miss them too.

I hope that in the future we see retro pins along the lines of TNA and PF, but emulating the look and feel of 90s DMD machines.
 
JustLikeMe said:
I’m 100% with you on this one. DMDs with original animations have a charm that LCD displays will never match. I miss them too.

I hope that in the future we see retro pins along the lines of TNA and PF, but emulating the look and feel of 90s DMD machines.
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I was just thinking recently with the success of Pulp Fiction, will other companies try releasing a 'retro' Pinball machine? I know Stern did Bond 60th but the pricing on that was ridiculous. *Forgot about Beatles too, again ridiculously priced.

Spooky did TNA, and demand for Haggis' Pins seems to be there, albeit remakes, if only they could actually manufacture them.
 
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Jib said:
We can moan or just discuss pricing all we want but things like this or moments with friends, family or just by yourself fully immersing yourself into a game and forgetting whatever real crap you have going on is why pinball is great.

Reading this and just playing some games on foo and DP myself, which made me smile at some stupid call-outs and crazy ball paths. Hoping I can continue to enjoy the hobby for a long time whatever happens to prices.
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Exactly this, a few days back I played Pinball with a Pinball Pal. Playing with friends is where Pinball is at for me, though doesn't happen to often here tbh. Still I get to put the lights on and forget all the real crap going on and have a quick blast myself. Now is the best time to enjoy what we already have and try not get caught up in the hype of new releases (more so the sterns) and crazy pricing.
 
Marvello said:
I was just thinking recently with the success of Pulp Fiction, will other companies try releasing a 'retro' Pinball machine? I know Stern did Bond 60th but the pricing on that was ridiculous. *Forgot about Beatles too, again ridiculously priced.

Spooky did TNA, and demand for Haggis' Pins seems to be there, albeit remakes, if only they could actually manufacture them.
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Yeah - kinda agree with this in many respects.

Sadly they are too used to making big profits (Stern).

I would love to see how much more money say a GZ PRO costs to make compared to a TSPP. I wouldnt imagine there is a lot of difference. One has a lot more mechs, more electronics and more parts.

An old fashioned DMD is more money than a cheap laptop screen in 2024.

I still do not think anything beats the 1990-2000 era.
 
What are people's thoughts on the current Pinball market, still heading down? There's a few Pins currently for sale I'm interested in but don't want to overpay for something that may only be a place keeper.

My Godzilla cost me nearly £1000 for the 7 months I owned it which is a bit too much for my liking. This was in part due to the upgrades I added, and including delivery costs.
 
That's the risk you run! If a game is relatively new it may be worth leaving it a couple of years to see where the price settles at.

ST pro's still going for £7k. BKSOR pros struggling to sell for £5k. If you're going for premiums or LEs there a lot more room for the price to drop if the game flops.

FF LE dropped from £16k to £11k on here recently and that's a pretty decent game!
 
Marvello said:
What are people's thoughts on the current Pinball market, still heading down? There's a few Pins currently for sale I'm interested in but don't want to overpay for something that may only be a place keeper.

My Godzilla cost me nearly £1000 for the 7 months I owned it which is a bit too much for my liking. This was in part due to the upgrades I added, and including delivery costs.
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A few do seem to be moving, but in terms of a metric: the number of open For Sale adverts on here last June was 4 full pages long. As of March this year it had just reached 6 pages and now it's at 6.5 pages. My interpretation of that is that people are still overpricing versus the market, so be careful what you pay :thumbs:
 
I have been thinking about this lately also. My current thoughts on NIB and used prices.

If you are buying NIB you better make sure it's a keeper or a long term keeper, even more so now than ever. So so much money to be lost. What you think the losses on NIB Sterns are now then ? (depended on the title) 1 - 1.5k on Pro's, 2k on premiums, 5k LE's 🤷‍♂️

Saying that the best NIB buy recently I think was the 7.5K Jaws offer, with the current best NIB being Pulp Fiction at 8.2k. Whats going to be the next big NIB surge going forward if any, Back to the Future most likely 🤷‍♂️

For used your always going to take a hit when selling, just depends on how much you put out and how long you keep it for. I would love a Pin to be able to swap in and out regularly but just not worth the losses now I don't think.

I have had a Godzilla Pro for the last two months, which I plan (hopefully) to make a keeper. I traded up from a GOTG where I valued the GZ at 6.7K. If I were to sell GZ now it would be under 6.5K, in another couple months take another could hundred off again.

Best position to be in now is for buying used, with the thought of keeping it for a long time. Or working out trades if you are struggling to sell.

Plenty games still available for sale, some priced really well and fair, some not so much. Not much movement recently on the sales though, as I suspect people are waiting on Pulp and holding out for Back to the Future.
 
Are the used JJP's keeping their value better on here due to the limited number compared to Sterns? I've seen a handful of JJP's pop up for sale this year but not sure what the trend has been here.
 
KevM said:
Are the used JJP's keeping their value better on here due to the limited number compared to Sterns? I've seen a handful of JJP's pop up for sale this year but not sure what the trend has been here.
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JJP GnR in the Sales section still not sold and under 8K now.
 
You won’t be getting £3k off an EJ anytime soon , there’s a wide consensus that it’s one of the best modern games , combined with so few of them coming into UK should mean if one happens to come up on the used market in the next year it will hold up pretty well , compared to games like GZ and GnR where there’s shedlaods of them around and it’s reflected in used prices .
 
Kelsbells said:
You won’t be getting £3k off an EJ anytime soon , there’s a wide consensus that it’s one of the best modern games , combined with so few of them coming into UK should mean if one happens to come up on the used market in the next year it will hold up pretty well , compared to games like GZ and GnR where there’s shedlaods of them around and it’s reflected in used prices .
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That’s yet to be seen. It will be interesting when the first Toy Story’s and godfather’s come onto the 2nd hand market. Not loads sold but maybe not as well regarded as a game. The problem with jjps in my eyes is even the entry models of their games are significantly more than a prem stern. Personally I think even EJ will take a min 2/2.5k hit when selling from new. The choice will be a brand new stern prem with warranty or a 2nd hand jjp with none
 
in fairness if no one really want the game like godfather, venom and toy story then pricing could get ugly, but when you get a really good game with so few people still buying nib, then that changes the natural order of things used pricing wise, if they even come up in next couple of years
 
Think we are going to see a bigger gap between the top rated games and the also rans, in the same way DMD games can vary drastically.
With NIB your getting a warranty, opening the box, risk free payment, that has to be worth a premium over a 2nd hand one?

All depends on how long you keep them and how much you play, losing a couple of grand on a game you enjoyed for two years and had 2k plays, not too bad, a game with a handful of plays after a few weeks, ouch.
 
Demand is saturated, whatever you are buying needs to be rationalised at a 25-30% loss. If you can't afford to take that high a hit, don't buy.

If you are uncomfortable taking offers that take that amount into account, don't sell !
 
Jmac said:
That’s yet to be seen. It will be interesting when the first Toy Story’s and godfather’s come onto the 2nd hand market. Not loads sold but maybe not as well regarded as a game.
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Having played Toy Story (not had the chance to play Godfather yet), they're not the same. Toy Story is a good on-location title, if you want to pay for buying one, as it's very casual friendly and there isn't much to break. But it has that 'I want to love this but, yeah, okay...' quality that most JJPs have.

EJ is a Stern/JJP hybrid. There's a theory that Steve Ritchie got mad at Stern, jumped ship with insider knowledge, and built the pin *he* wanted to build all those years. As you can tell from Brucie the cutsie rubber shark (who everyone wants to snuggle but who definitely doesn't eat the ball), Bill of Materials is a massive consideration for Stern right now and IMO they're going full Boeing 737Max now, as a result.

Jmac said:
The problem with jjps in my eyes is even the entry models of their games are significantly more than a prem stern.
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The issue with the JJPs is they're not comparable with the Stern Prem - they're now comparable with the LE. The EJ PE I borrowed had a vinyl (non-interactive) topper, powder-coated legs and side armour, shaker motors, side art, and various other bits of nice premium detailing that you need to pay extra for from Stern.

If you imagine adding those upgrades to a Stern Prem (as I have done), the cost does rip you a new one. It's all cosmetic, but - for the most part - so are the Stern LE additions, which is why I've gone Prem with my Sterns and then added the LE bits I want from aftermarket.
 
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Mozie said:
Unless your 100% sure it's going to be a keeper (and let's me honest very few are) there's really not much point in spending big on mods and upgrades because apart from a colordmd your not getting it back when you sell. It's very easy to **** away 1k+ on machine bling
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I'm not one of those who thinks mods don't increase the value of a Pin, they at least make it more desirable compared to ones without, and I mean decent upgrades, not plastic tat stuck everywhere.

In future I'll most likely move things like shakers, speaker upgrades and cooling fans etc. from Pin to Pin. If buyers don't value them then they shouldn't mind them being removed.
 
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