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Speakers pop and hum - Sega / Data East machines

edsr

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Thought I’d start this thread as have been reading up on this elsewhere.

I wondered if anyone had been successful in resolving speaker hum on Data East or Sega machines? It seems to be a common problem.

Also, when I turn the machine on there’s a loud “Pop” from the speakers - is this normal?


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I found these possible solutions so far:

One is to replace one of the capacitors on the main power board. Not sure which one though. Some tried replacing every single cap on sound board and it’s not fixed it.

Another is to mount the sound board using nylon washers (stops interference from the Earth line).

Just wondered if anyone in this forum had tried and ‘won’ on this? I’ll post up any progress I can make on this...

Here’s a screen shot from another forum I found uploads.tapatalk_cdn.com_20171030_0202c486d461d35024a6c69e98886aab.jpg which shows the nylon ‘floating’ trick.


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I also tried resolving the hum on my Torpedo Alley by floating the sound board and it made no difference.
 
It’s actually a lot less noticeable when the things in use. Just on standby as it’s in the living area of our house. It’s doing my head in already. It’s not too of the list at the moment but I’m gonna try floating and go from there I think


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Ok so floating the board doesn’t work for me either. I wonder if insulating the thread on the screw might help [emoji848]

Another weird thing: when I switch on it says “Baywatch will be r...” and cuts out before saying “...ight back”. When I swapped the backup batteries for some newer ones it did a full reset. First boot after this was the first time I’ve heard it say the full sentence. But every time since then, and it cuts out. Just wondering if anyone else’s does this and if it’s in any way related? I’m pretty sure I can hear a relay click around the same time as it cutting out...

It’s no big deal but just sounds a bit shonky when switching, along with the loud bang/pop from the speakers!


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Another weird thing: when I switch on it says “Baywatch will be r...” and cuts out before saying “...ight back”. When I swapped the backup batteries for some newer ones it did a full reset. First boot after this was the first time I’ve heard it say the full sentence. But every time since then, and it cuts out. Just wondering if anyone else’s does this and if it’s in any way related? I’m pretty sure I can hear a relay click around the same time as it cutting out...

It’s no big deal but just sounds a bit shonky when switching, along with the loud bang/pop from the speakers!


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That start up speech bit is perfectly normal ..... I think the amount of speech you get is related to how fast the machine gets it's sh*t together ....Sunday morning tech talk :D......so can vary.
 
Pretty normal not to hear any speech or just a fraction of it. You generally hear it after replacing batteries, as you did.
 
Haha thanks for the Sunday morning tech talk - one less thing to fix :)


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So. The sound board has its own reset and cpu system on board. Boot it on its own and it’ll say the whole sentence. The main cpu rests and boots separately and more slowly than the sound cpu. Once it’s up and ready it takes command over the sound board and shuts it up ready for action. If the batteries are removed then the cpu doesn’t fully boot and a full sentence is heard.
 
The tmnt im looking after for a pal is now humming but small mercies, we have audio at last. I’m not sure my gnr did it, but that had a pinsound In there.
 
Was just going to post the same thing. Would make sense to use nylon screws.
 
I used the separate psu in my tftc and it 100% cured the hum and pops.
Its a head wrecker for sure

Good news.

The PSU certainly seems to work for general background hum/noise.

The trickier problem with the DMD era games is the b*stard 'attract mode light hum' ..... the ebbing and flowing hum that accompanies the attract mode light sequences. I have given up on it now .
 
I nearly bought one then thought considering all the shipping for one item that apparently only reduces the noise which I find not too bad it wouldn't be worth it
 
Yes I got two of them, one in robocop and one in tales from the crypt, made a huge difference in robocop but not so much in tftc which wasn't too bad to begin with. Doesn't eliminate it completely but in robocop it's reduced it to where you need to be actively listening to notice the hum.
 
Yes I got two of them, one in robocop and one in tales from the crypt, made a huge difference in robocop but not so much in tftc which wasn't too bad to begin with. Doesn't eliminate it completely but in robocop it's reduced it to where you need to be actively listening to notice the hum.

Cool, it's a Robocop I would like one for. I've managed to reduce the hum in PinBot massively by installing LEDs and tightening down everything in the backbox, and now Robocop is the hummmmer. @Mozie If you wanted to sell the one out of your TFTC, please give me a shout. New ones are selling out in hours when they're actually in stock, no idea when I'd be able to grab one.

cheers
 
My Last Action Hero was terrible when I got it. Combination of ground loops and pickup causing DMD, attract and general hum you could even hear in a game! It used to take 2 minutes to boot as well!

I replaced all the electrolytics (power boards, sound board and big smoothing barrels). Testing their ESR once out of circuit, most of them were still OK, but the bigger ones and the odd smaller one were out of spec'.

I moved the volume control from the front of the cabinet to the sound board connector on a shorter cable. Also made a colour DMD and fitted LEDs - these reduce switching currents and noise.

Very much better, but still mildly 'hummy' in attract.

One observation (as an electronics engineer): you should always look to improve earthing/grounding, rather than mess with the original design. Floating boards, and relying on cabling to provide ground will always have unpredictable results. Fitting a less noisy power supply can help, but cheap modern switch mode supplies can be very noisy.

Filtering and grounding is usually the way to go; its often cheap and simple.

The 'noise filter' mentioned above looks like a buck boost converter on the 12 Volt line. My guess is it shifts the frequency of the noise away from the low frequency stuff getting in from the main power supply.

All credit to the people selling it as a plug-in retrofit, but if you like a bit of DIY, here's one for a couple of quid. It has a variable output, so you would need to set the output voltage to 12V:

Ill have a go and report back ... !
 
i’m sure @stumblor or @myPinballs could make up a similar circuit board.
first thing I would do is replace the big lamp filter cap. Same issue as with system11 abd many 80s arcade games. The cap wears out and stops smoothing the unregulated dc correctly. Ac ‘ripple’ gets through and causes all sorts of mischief

I have new ones if anyone needs one
 
I have some notes I cant claim any credit for them as I saved part of these from a post by Brett the XPIN designer and Viperrwk, All I would add is to make sure that the voltage of any capacitors you replace is the same (or greater) than the originals)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original DE power supply creates a +12 and -12 unregulated DC voltage. For those who don’t know what an unregulated supply is, it is a rectified AC voltage is turned to DC and filtered with a big bulk capacitor. On the +12, the supply has 18000uf and the -12 has a 1000uf cap. The reason behind the 18000uf on the +12 is that this +12 is the input voltage for the +5V rail. If you replace both of these caps, the hum should be reduced. My recommendation is that to replace both with a larger capacitance value. These caps are bulk storage caps. They will decrease the ripple feeding into all of the downstream regulators. Simulations show increasing the 18000uf to 22000uf and the 1000uf to 1200 uf should increase the downstream regulator effectiveness by ~15%. Age and use have been working against us on these caps.

This is probably the biggest culprit in generating the hum. The DE soundboard design takes the +/-12 V unreg DC and passes them to 7805(+5) and 7905(-5) linear regulators. The inputs to these regulators also have 470uf caps on them. In theory, what should happen is that they will work in conjunction with the bulk caps on the power supply board which should reduce the ripple even more. Solid theory, but there is more to this story.

In the mid-90’s most mfgs of 7805 and 7905 devices stated that they needed a minimum input voltage of at least 8-9 volts to maintain regulation. As far as linear regs go this is fine for the era. Modern equivalents claim they only need 7vdc to maintain regulation. If the ripple drops below the regulation point, the output of the linear will sag as well, so you now will have a 120hz signal on your output of the regulator.

The +/5V rails are fed into LM833 opamps, which will then transfer the 120 hz ripple into the MB3730 audio amplifier. I believe this is how the hum is getting there.

My recommendation for the sound board is to replace the 470uf (C31 and C52) caps on the inputs of these regulators with at least 1000uf caps. This gives you fresh caps, the increased capacitance will reduce ripple, which considering the age of the board, will allow it to keep the input voltage at a higher point, compensating for the higher electrical load caused by older components.

I would also recommend replacing the bulk caps on U31, U32, and U33. Primary power for these devices is the +12V regulated rail from the power supply. These caps (C60, C67, C74) should be replaced with the original value of 470uf.

The DMD display can have an impact on the hum as well, but only if it is a Babcock Plasma display. Why only Babcock? Babcock displays require 12V to operate which in DE games it gets from the power supplies regulated +12V. The internal structure of the SN75555 HV shift register used for driving the display counts on a stable +12V to properly bias internal transistors. Over time, I believe some degradation has also occurred with these parts because in theory, if the +12V is not rock solid, the ripple from the HV rails (60hz) can be induced on the +12V which can then be passed back to every device in the game using the +12V regulated rail, which includes the audio amps on the sound board.

Replacement of the 47uf cap at C18(?) should help this. I recommend a 100uf. No guarantee on this one because this path is also dependant on degradation of the SN75555 devices over time as well.

Not much more to add other than I believe we are fighting an age issue. Keeping in mind that these games are 20yrs old, the electronics are feeling their age. A little refresh is always a good thing.
 
I have some notes I cant claim any credit for them as I saved part of these from a post by Brett the XPIN designer and Viperrwk, All I would add is to make sure that the voltage of any capacitors you replace is the same (or greater) than the originals)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The original DE power supply creates a +12 and -12 unregulated DC voltage. For those who don’t know what an unregulated supply is, it is a rectified AC voltage is turned to DC and filtered with a big bulk capacitor. On the +12, the supply has 18000uf and the -12 has a 1000uf cap. The reason behind the 18000uf on the +12 is that this +12 is the input voltage for the +5V rail. If you replace both of these caps, the hum should be reduced. My recommendation is that to replace both with a larger capacitance value. These caps are bulk storage caps. They will decrease the ripple feeding into all of the downstream regulators. Simulations show increasing the 18000uf to 22000uf and the 1000uf to 1200 uf should increase the downstream regulator effectiveness by ~15%. Age and use have been working against us on these caps.

This is probably the biggest culprit in generating the hum. The DE soundboard design takes the +/-12 V unreg DC and passes them to 7805(+5) and 7905(-5) linear regulators. The inputs to these regulators also have 470uf caps on them. In theory, what should happen is that they will work in conjunction with the bulk caps on the power supply board which should reduce the ripple even more. Solid theory, but there is more to this story.

In the mid-90’s most mfgs of 7805 and 7905 devices stated that they needed a minimum input voltage of at least 8-9 volts to maintain regulation. As far as linear regs go this is fine for the era. Modern equivalents claim they only need 7vdc to maintain regulation. If the ripple drops below the regulation point, the output of the linear will sag as well, so you now will have a 120hz signal on your output of the regulator.

The +/5V rails are fed into LM833 opamps, which will then transfer the 120 hz ripple into the MB3730 audio amplifier. I believe this is how the hum is getting there.

My recommendation for the sound board is to replace the 470uf (C31 and C52) caps on the inputs of these regulators with at least 1000uf caps. This gives you fresh caps, the increased capacitance will reduce ripple, which considering the age of the board, will allow it to keep the input voltage at a higher point, compensating for the higher electrical load caused by older components.

I would also recommend replacing the bulk caps on U31, U32, and U33. Primary power for these devices is the +12V regulated rail from the power supply. These caps (C60, C67, C74) should be replaced with the original value of 470uf.

The DMD display can have an impact on the hum as well, but only if it is a Babcock Plasma display. Why only Babcock? Babcock displays require 12V to operate which in DE games it gets from the power supplies regulated +12V. The internal structure of the SN75555 HV shift register used for driving the display counts on a stable +12V to properly bias internal transistors. Over time, I believe some degradation has also occurred with these parts because in theory, if the +12V is not rock solid, the ripple from the HV rails (60hz) can be induced on the +12V which can then be passed back to every device in the game using the +12V regulated rail, which includes the audio amps on the sound board.

Replacement of the 47uf cap at C18(?) should help this. I recommend a 100uf. No guarantee on this one because this path is also dependant on degradation of the SN75555 devices over time as well.

Not much more to add other than I believe we are fighting an age issue. Keeping in mind that these games are 20yrs old, the electronics are feeling their age. A little refresh is always a good thing.
Good info - I have chronic hum on my LW3. Will work through this when I get round to it - got a couple of things in the pipeline first, though.
 
Like others have said only way I removed the interference from my LW3 was to add an external 5/12v PSU which fixed it :)
 
first thing I would do is replace the big lamp filter cap. Same issue as with system11 abd many 80s arcade games. The cap wears out and stops smoothing the unregulated dc correctly. Ac ‘ripple’ gets through and causes all sorts of mischief

I have new ones if anyone needs one

Hi @myPinballs please can you invoice me for one to replace in my Robocop, when the PB boards are ready to be returned, thanks mate :thumbs:



The 'noise filter' mentioned above looks like a buck boost converter on the 12 Volt line. My guess is it shifts the frequency of the noise away from the low frequency stuff getting in from the main power supply.

All credit to the people selling it as a plug-in retrofit, but if you like a bit of DIY, here's one for a couple of quid. It has a variable output, so you would need to set the output voltage to 12V:

Ill have a go and report back ... !

Hi @BomberHQ , did you have any joy testing this out? Cheers
 
Urgh sods law I revive this topic & a few hours later a bit of hum is trivial 😭

Tonight random sound FX are happening in game, mode music is out of context and the sound tests are really distorted, music test is silent.
I replaced the cabinet speaker yesterday as the original had perforated, played fine last night except for a random ED209 effect during one game.
Feck knows what I cocked up yesterday
 
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