Will 'classics' ever include 90s pins?

[VeeMonroe]

@MadMonzer just pointed out that the line between 'classic' and 'modern' pins has been drawn roughly around Lethal Weapon and the adoption of the DMD for a very long time now. But, to someone who grew up with post-2010 Sterns, is it already the case that Fish Tales is closer to Harlem Globetrotters than Stern's Godzilla?

With so many new pins being released, and the good Bally/Williams becoming increasingly rare and collectible, he wonders if the line between 'classics' and 'moderns' will ever move.

Just seemed an interesting (idle) talking point.

 

[AlanJ]

"Classic SS" and "Classic DMD"

SS is a misnomer now anyway, but we all know what it does and doesn't mean when referring to pins.

 

[roadshow16]

It's an interesting debate that was discussed at length in discord in regards to the IFPA world championship and the categories they have of 'old' 'mid' and 'new'.

It might be a bit of a fun game to see what people think are the correct categories to put certain machines in, I'll list 12 games and you need to put them in each of the categories of 'old' 'mid' and 'new'. And then I'll tell you what Josh Sharpe and the IFPA would categorise them as

Captain Fantastic
Flash Gordon
Fish Tales
Indianapolis 500
Skateball
Pinbot
Total Nuclear Annihilation
F14 Tomcat
Wizard!
Avengers Infinity Quest
Quicksilver
Paragon

I'm interested to see what people think

 

[David_Vi]

the line between 'classic' and 'modern' pins has been drawn roughly around Lethal Weapon

What made him think that? Never seen a DMD in a 'Classics'

Classic is usually anything pre 1986ish. System 11's aren't usually considered 'Classics' in comps but the line occasionally moves.

 

[David_Vi]

It's an interesting debate that was discussed at length in discord in regards to the IFPA world championship and the categories they have of 'old' 'mid' and 'new'.

It might be a bit of a fun game to see what people think are the correct categories to put certain machines in, I'll list 12 games and you need to put them in each of the categories of 'old' 'mid' and 'new'. And then I'll tell you what Josh Sharpe and the IFPA would categorise them as

Captain Fantastic
Flash Gordon
Fish Tales
Indianapolis 500
Skateball
Pinbot
Total Nuclear Annihilation
F14 Tomcat
Wizard!
Avengers Infinity Quest
Quicksilver
Paragon

I'm interested to see what people think

Captain Fantastic OLD
Flash Gordon OLD
Fish Tales MID
Indianapolis 500 NEW
Skateball OLD
Pinbot MID
Total Nuclear Annihilation NEW
F14 Tomcat MID
Wizard! OLD
Avengers Infinity Quest NEW
Quicksilver OLD
Paragon OLD

:\

 

[Matt Vince]

Captain Fantastic - old
Flash Gordon - old
Fish Tales - mid
Indianapolis 500 - mid
Skateball - old
Pinbot - mid
Total Nuclear Annihilation - new
F14 Tomcat - mid
Wizard! - old
Avengers Infinity Quest - new
Quicksilver - old
Paragon - old

For me the line between old and mid is the tough one here but I have a sneaky feeling the dmd's could have been lumped into new. The truth is I think we need 4 categories and the easiest way to distinguish them is the displays. Reels, Alpha/Numeric, DMD, LCD. Still have issue with pulp fiction though.

 

[Matt Vince]

Great minds @David_Vi

 

[roadshow16]

For me the line between old and mid is the tough one here but I have a sneaky feeling the dmd's could have been lumped into new. The truth is I think we need 4 categories and the easiest way to distinguish them is the displays. Reels, Alpha/Numeric, DMD, LCD. Still have issue with pulp fiction though.

This was exactly the debate, whether there needed to be 4 categories now

 

[steve brum]

All about displays

Matts 4 divisions is spot on

Traditionally;

Pre alphanumeric are classics so most recent classic pins are andromeda sorcerer lady luck etc

Due to lack of pins alpha numerics have drifted into classic competitions

By classic we mean classic era

Any age can be a classic game . AFM MM even GODZILLA

 

[kev a]

Personally I would have it like this.

Pre alphanumeric (classics)
Alpha numeric + DMD (Mid)
LCD (New)

Doesn't feel like there's enough difference between say a Sys11 and WPC to warrant a separate category.

 

[roadshow16]

Captain Fantastic OLD
Flash Gordon OLD
Fish Tales MID
Indianapolis 500 NEW
Skateball OLD
Pinbot MID
Total Nuclear Annihilation NEW
F14 Tomcat MID
Wizard! OLD
Avengers Infinity Quest NEW
Quicksilver OLD
Paragon OLD

:\

9/12 room for improvement

 

[roadshow16]

Captain Fantastic - old
Flash Gordon - old
Fish Tales - mid
Indianapolis 500 - mid
Skateball - old
Pinbot - mid
Total Nuclear Annihilation - new
F14 Tomcat - mid
Wizard! - old
Avengers Infinity Quest - new
Quicksilver - old
Paragon - old

For me the line between old and mid is the tough one here but I have a sneaky feeling the dmd's could have been lumped into new. The truth is I think we need 4 categories and the easiest way to distinguish them is the displays. Reels, Alpha/Numeric, DMD, LCD. Still have issue with pulp fiction though.

8/12 could do better

 

[Wayne J]

I definitely agree that the easiest way to split the divisions (and that everyone can understand is by display).

So they would be:
Reels,
Alphanumeric,
DMD &
LCD.

However I was chatting to Colin MacAlpine about The Beatles and he put it in the classics section of a comp he ran, as it played more like a classic than a modern - which is were my thinking is going for the list below.

As for the split: If they have to be broken into 3 equal banks (with 4 in each)

Captain Fantastic (OLD)
Flash Gordon (MID)
Fish Tales (NEW)
Indianapolis 500 (NEW)
Skateball (MID)
Pinbot (NEW)
Total Nuclear Annihilation (MID)
F14 Tomcat (MID)
Wizard! (OLD)
Avengers Infinity Quest (NEW)
Quicksilver (OLD)
Paragon (OLD)

 

[roadshow16]

I definitely agree that the easiest way to split the divisions (and that everyone can understand is by display).

So they would be:
Reels,
Alphanumeric,
DMD &
LCD.

However I was chatting to Colin MacAlpine about The Beatles and he put it in the classics section of a comp he ran, as it played more like a classic than a modern - which is were my thinking is going for the list below.

As for the split: If they have to be broken into 3 equal banks (with 4 in each)

Captain Fantastic (OLD)
Flash Gordon (MID)
Fish Tales (NEW)
Indianapolis 500 (NEW)
Skateball (MID)
Pinbot (NEW)
Total Nuclear Annihilation (MID)
F14 Tomcat (MID)
Wizard! (OLD)
Avengers Infinity Quest (NEW)
Quicksilver (OLD)
Paragon (OLD)

I like the deliberation and where you are going, but still 8/12. Wayne must work harder

(Can you tell I'm a teacher )

 

[Wayne J]

I like the deliberation and where you are going, but still 8/12. Wayne must work harder

(Can you tell I'm a teacher )

Isn't 67% now an A*** with current grading?

 

[robotgreg]

Captain Fantastic (OLD)
Flash Gordon (OLD)
Fish Tales (MID)
Indianapolis 500 (MID)
Skateball (OLD)
Pinbot (MID)
Total Nuclear Annihilation (NEW)
F14 Tomcat (MID)
Wizard! (OLD)
Avengers Infinity Quest (NEW)
Quicksilver (OLD)
Paragon (OLD)

 

[roadshow16]

Captain Fantastic (OLD)
Flash Gordon (OLD)
Fish Tales (MID)
Indianapolis 500 (MID)
Skateball (OLD)
Pinbot (MID)
Total Nuclear Annihilation (NEW)
F14 Tomcat (MID)
Wizard! (OLD)
Avengers Infinity Quest (NEW)
Quicksilver (OLD)
Paragon (OLD)

8/12 Mr Mott, please see me

 

[roadshow16]

A clue, Wayne was on the right track. I have indeed included 4 games from each category

 

[Fubar]

A clue, Wayne was on the right track. I have indeed included 4 games from each category

The obvious strategy then is to group them by date right? Obviously TNA is a bit of an outlier but let's leave it in NEW for now...

1975 Wizard!
1976 Capt Fantastic
1979 Paragon
1980 Quicksilver (June)

1980 Sk8ball (September)
1981 Flash Gordon
1986 Pinbot
1987 F14

1992 Fish Tales
1995 Indy 500
2017 TNA
2020 AIQ

 

[roadshow16]

The obvious strategy then is to group them by date right? Obviously TNA is a bit of an outlier but let's leave it in NEW for now...

1975 Wizard!
1976 Capt Fantastic
1979 Paragon
1980 Quicksilver (June)

1980 Sk8ball (September)
1981 Flash Gordon
1986 Pinbot
1987 F14

1992 Fish Tales
1995 Indy 500
2017 TNA
2020 AIQ

Ding ding ding ding ding. Excellent, well done Mr Fubar 12/12 and a gold star.

Now there are exceptions to these. There are examples of IFPA's where Skateball was considered Old and Quicksilver was considered Mid, but it all depends on the venue and the range of machines that they have. But basically as a rule of thumb, around 1980 is the cut off between old/mid and the cutoff between mid/new is 1991 according to IFPA and the world championships.

Josh's real justification is the skillset involved in each of these era's. So really it's the flippers that are the determining factor here, not the displays, according to the rule of Josh. He would argue that the skillset needed to be good at Wizard is hugely different to the skillset needed to be good at F14 Tomcat, so they need to be in separate categories. Where as he doesn't see a major difference (or at least enough of a difference) between the skills needed to be good at Fish Tales and the skills needed to be good at Godzilla. Lots of others disagreed. Josh listened, nothing changed, yet

 

[Fubar]

Ding ding ding ding ding. Excellent, well done Mr Fubar 12/12 and a gold star.

Thanks lol, your clue did make it easy just had to look the dates up.

Josh's real justification is the skillset involved in each of these era's. So really it's the flippers that are the determining factor here, not the displays

That does make sense to me.

But by that logic putting FG and F14 in the same bucket is bonkers imho, they have very different flipper feel. F14 is like FT and FG is like Paragon.

(Also think that WPC games are quite different to Spike2 in terms of flipper feel. And the skillset to be good at them (rules knowledge) is different.)

 

[Tilt_Birmingham]

I definitely agree that the easiest way to split the divisions (and that everyone can understand is by display).

So they would be:
Reels,
Alphanumeric,
DMD &
LCD.

Wayne is correct this is how it was at Pinburgh each round was a mix of the 4

Otherwise I would say

Classic - Reels Alpha
Modern Classic - DMD
Modern - LCD

 

[Davey D]

I always think of pins like this:

Vintage: anything with score reels
Classic: anything from AlphaNumeric up to DMD
Modern: anything with an LCD screen

 

[David_Vi]

So what about Pulp Fiction? To me it's a modern but it has alphanumeric displays.
The play style/feel and rules seem more modern to me (plus it is modern).

 

[roadshow16]

Thanks lol, your clue did make it easy just had to look the dates up.


That does make sense to me.

But by that logic putting FG and F14 in the same bucket is bonkers imho, they have very different flipper feel. F14 is like FT and FG is like Paragon.

(Also think that WPC games are quite different to Spike2 in terms of flipper feel. And the skillset to be good at them (rules knowledge) is different.)

Couldn't agree more. The difference between Flash Gordon and Funhouse is even bigger and they would be considered in the 'mid' category, definitely a bigger skillset difference than say a Dracula and a Godzilla in my opinion. Ah well, I guess you have to draw a line in the sand somewhere

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[Pick Holder]

A classic car is determined that it is 40 years of age or more.
Other goods are vintage if over 20 years old, and antique over 100.

So I think the answer to the original post is 90s pins either are now classics or very soon will be.

I always say TAF is a Classic, like AFM - MM - TZ etc.

If you are looking at a 'Classic album' by a music artist. It is considered a classic because of its age and quality.

So in 2040 will Homepins Thunderbirds be a classic?
In 2024 is Addams a classic?

 

[steve brum]

Tbirds = classic disaster

 

[VeeMonroe]

Tbirds = classic disaster

I feel some tournaments would benefit from a 'novelty' category. Or, rather, I'd be 100% up for a Twitch-streamed charity tournament featuring some of the world's best players taking on some of pinball's most... erm, interesting machines. Let the swearing commence!

 

[steve brum]

... I thinking the words .. orbitor and banzai