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Underpricing pins is harming the hobby
- Thread starter VeeMonroe
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I don't think people are under valuing on purpose, just prices are going up faster than people can keep up with.
Also the mentality of someone who's been collecting for a while will be different.
Once you have a few pins, getting the next loses it's urgency, sure theres a few games I would like to try, but im happy with my lineup so any new game would have to be a seriously good deal to tempt me.
Also the mentality of someone who's been collecting for a while will be different.
Once you have a few pins, getting the next loses it's urgency, sure theres a few games I would like to try, but im happy with my lineup so any new game would have to be a seriously good deal to tempt me.
I don't quite understand the point you're getting at here? You're suggesting as a community we should over-inflate prices even further (ripping off newbies) to help them....?
By doing so you would be pricing out more and more people from owning machines. There's no way I would of been able to obtain the collection I have if I started from scratch today.
By doing so you would be pricing out more and more people from owning machines. There's no way I would of been able to obtain the collection I have if I started from scratch today.
Personally I think most pins that appear on here are sensibly priced.
Ebay and other places tend to be slightly overpriced and often with issues, and much much more risk.
I don't understand your point about buying blind on here and it being a potential scam, that's incredibly rare here (rossco happened but he wasn't an established member). Nearly every member who sells can be vouched for, you have photos and info of issues. It's way less risk than eBay or other locations. Noway is it blind
Prices on here did increase with COVID, they've been steadily increasing for years but they jumped up last year.
You'll pay a premium if you want a particular game, from your evolving wanted thread, you knew exactly what you wanted and wouldn't accept anything else. So you pay the price, I did similar and paid about £500 above what the forum advised the pin to be worth, but I wanted it. I believe similar to you as it was from Tobin.
On the otherhand I recently sold one of my games to another community member for only a couple hundred over the price I paid two years ago (and I've done quite a lot of fixing up on it !) full well knowing I could probably get at least £500 more, even 1k more if a decent sale was anything to go by.
But hopefully if I don't end up buying it back in future it'll go to someone else in the community at a decent price.
Also I think there's been quite a lot of pins for sale on here in the recent months. Remember the post about there being no pins then suddenly loads appeared?
I'm relatively new on here , (lurking then joining in 2019) but I don't remember there being lots of for sale threads. Games would still sell quick, with a few that would get reduced over the course of days or end up going to eBay.
I don't think it's dramatically different to before.
You'll nearly always pay more on pinball owners because a lot of people on there aren't in a hurry to sell, they'll sell for the right amount. It's different to when someone offers a game on here.
Ebay and other places tend to be slightly overpriced and often with issues, and much much more risk.
I don't understand your point about buying blind on here and it being a potential scam, that's incredibly rare here (rossco happened but he wasn't an established member). Nearly every member who sells can be vouched for, you have photos and info of issues. It's way less risk than eBay or other locations. Noway is it blind
Prices on here did increase with COVID, they've been steadily increasing for years but they jumped up last year.
You'll pay a premium if you want a particular game, from your evolving wanted thread, you knew exactly what you wanted and wouldn't accept anything else. So you pay the price, I did similar and paid about £500 above what the forum advised the pin to be worth, but I wanted it. I believe similar to you as it was from Tobin.
On the otherhand I recently sold one of my games to another community member for only a couple hundred over the price I paid two years ago (and I've done quite a lot of fixing up on it !) full well knowing I could probably get at least £500 more, even 1k more if a decent sale was anything to go by.
But hopefully if I don't end up buying it back in future it'll go to someone else in the community at a decent price.
Also I think there's been quite a lot of pins for sale on here in the recent months. Remember the post about there being no pins then suddenly loads appeared?
I'm relatively new on here , (lurking then joining in 2019) but I don't remember there being lots of for sale threads. Games would still sell quick, with a few that would get reduced over the course of days or end up going to eBay.
I don't think it's dramatically different to before.
You'll nearly always pay more on pinball owners because a lot of people on there aren't in a hurry to sell, they'll sell for the right amount. It's different to when someone offers a game on here.
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I see the point you’re making in that long term owners value a machine at what they’d pay for it, and happily express this on the forum, therefore new people looking for a pin are believing that they shouldn’t pay more than £1.5 for say a data east star wars, whereas the reality is that on the open market you’re looking at minimum 2.5 for a non worker. I also concur that people aren’t selling older games as they/we fear we’ll never be able to pick one up again. As more people have bought into the hobby, and with the supply of older machines being finite , the effects of limited supply against heightened demand will, as in all markets, increase prices.
The recent £10k TAF thread ended up debating why there aren't enough pins for sale on here . It summed it all up for me . I have a TAF. Not mint but pretty nice .
Do I think it's worth say £8k? No
Would someone pay that for it in today's market ? Probably yes
So logic says sell it
But would I list it for £8k?
No,
Why? Go back to start of post
That's why good folk on here aren't selling IMO
Do I think it's worth say £8k? No
Would someone pay that for it in today's market ? Probably yes
So logic says sell it
But would I list it for £8k?
No,
Why? Go back to start of post
That's why good folk on here aren't selling IMO
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Absolutely spot on, I felt (and still do feel) very looked after when I came on here. Some people are too impatient and pay over the odds for a pin and this drives prices up. Selling between friends and trusted established pinheads on here is a good practise as it keeps the prices down.
In a nut shell we should price pins higher than they’re worth, so the sensible buyers don’t snap em up quick & newbies get a chance at over paying?!? - what a ridiculous load of tosh…. but it’s your idea so here we go.I'd prefer no one got banned over this, including me - so let's keep any discussion polite and respectful.
I've secured a fourth pin after looking for 2+ months. There is a shortage of pins for sale at the moment, especially on this forum.
I think one problem is pricing in the UK pinball community. Pinflation has gone mad and many people haven't adjusted. Stern are charging ~£7.5k for a new Pro (and there’s still a waiting list) and that's driving up the cost of second-hand pins.
I was told that a late 70s/80s pin should be worth £1-2k. This turned out to be unrealistic in practice. I was offered three pins in two months - one by someone I'd met in person and the other two weren't on my (very long) want list. The 'real' price for a newbie with no social connections to other collectors is closer to £2-3.5k for an average-quality 70s/80s pin. Needless to say, once I offered this price, a pin materialised within days.
Likewise, I recently noticed a Shadow being valued at £3k on the 'How Much is this Worth' thread. I'd value a Shadow in mediocre condition at closer to a White Water, and about £4-5k. A mint one would be £5-7k, which is what you'd expect for something slightly less valuable than a new Stern. If you imagine what you get for £7.5k from a new Stern Pro compared to a restored Shadow, many people - especially those of us into older machines - would think you're getting more from the Shadow (IMO) and a mediocre Shadow is not £4.5k less than a really nice one.
The consequences of underpricing pins I've noticed, include:
I'm not happy about the current prices of pinball machines either. However, being unrealistic about this is just hurting people, especially newbies to the hobby.
- Newbies being unable to secure a pin in the UK, and being told to check Pinball Owners (mostly overseas pins, which is less practical than it was pre-Brexit), eBay (mainly deludedly overpriced, junk and scams), and retailers - even people looking for popular/common pins like Addams Family;
- People who price realistically being hounded off the forums (e.g. skill posts!);
- Pins priced at the 'community-acceptable' price disappear off this forum within a couple of hours. Viewing a pin requires you to drop everything and take a cross-country trip before it disappears (happened to me), or you're expected to buy blind (a perfect environment for scamming);
- Newbies get frustrated and upset because nothing is for sale (e.g. dude who 'flipped the table' and got banned recently);
- Pins get exported as they're worth more overseas;
- Importing pins seems more expensive/risky than it should because the 'free market' price and the 'community-accepted' price are so different;
- Buying a pin at the 'acceptable' (i.e. below market) price becomes a privilege from being an experienced collector with the right contacts because below-market-price sales happen before a stranger can buy (I'm suspecting this is happening);
- Non-selling sellers faff around not selling, or pull out of sales, because the 'acceptable' price isn't attractive enough for them to close the deal (happened to me twice. Also, to at least one other person);
- The shortage of pins for sale on the open market means people don't want to sell an existing pin incase they can't source a replacement.
Given the pricing norm, most pins that come up on the collector market are being sold to an existing collector for whom it’s their ‘nth’ machine. Unless collectors lend their pins to a community arcade like Pinball Republic, this means we’re going to see the same number of pins in fewer homes, which will lead to fewer pins being played
You can have exclusive first refusal on any of my pins:
Iron Maiden (Pro) 11k
BK: SOR (Pro) 10k
Metallica (Pro) 9k
A:IQ (Pro) 12k
Elvira 30k
I bet you don’t buy any of them so I’ll price them sensibly (against your idea) and someone will snap them up & you can moan about it
you forgot to complain about hoarders, those with huge collections, cannot possibly play them all, should sell half so the newbies can have a chance
My suggestion for anyone thinking of getting into he hobby;
get to know people, go to meets, participate in forums. I am more likely to sell to someone I know than a stranger
Do some research. if you are interested in a game and you ask for the dimensions of a pinball machine, I do not want to deal with a noob
Be prepared to buy a "B" title in less than perfect condition. I love some of my "B" titles more than the "A" list games
Have a list of five games you want to buy. waiting to get that "one" perfect game will end with you paying too much and not being happy if it is not the "perfect" game you thought it would be
Have cash ready and willing to make that trip in a few days. I do not know your local transport options, but here in Australia we have a dedicated pinball transport guy that travels up and down the East coast. but he only comes to my town once every 2 months. as a seller, I am not sitting on a game for that long if someone else is picking up in two days
My suggestion for anyone thinking of getting into he hobby;
get to know people, go to meets, participate in forums. I am more likely to sell to someone I know than a stranger
Do some research. if you are interested in a game and you ask for the dimensions of a pinball machine, I do not want to deal with a noob
Be prepared to buy a "B" title in less than perfect condition. I love some of my "B" titles more than the "A" list games
Have a list of five games you want to buy. waiting to get that "one" perfect game will end with you paying too much and not being happy if it is not the "perfect" game you thought it would be
Have cash ready and willing to make that trip in a few days. I do not know your local transport options, but here in Australia we have a dedicated pinball transport guy that travels up and down the East coast. but he only comes to my town once every 2 months. as a seller, I am not sitting on a game for that long if someone else is picking up in two days
But there's a limit where you may as well just go buy a new pin. Unless you've a serious want for a certain title. This is why I'm done buying used (pretty much).
You'd value? You said you're a newb so how would you know? Shadow was/is a B list game and paying nearly new Stern prices for a 30 year old machine that has nowhere near the depth or features of a new pin is hardly comparable. I'd love another Shadow but I'm not going to pay through the nose for it.
But you said that pins were underpriced, put a want add up with what you'd be prepared to pay and see if that still is the case.
Always been in demand (no idea why), been that way since the 2000s.
Choice and a skill post game just isn't worth the same aminly down to the huge hole cut between the flippers. A case of that sold for X so mine is worth X and its just not so.
Never viewed a pin. If its from a trusted seller, buy it! If not, either pass or ask for photos. You snooze you lose.
There's stuff for sale, there's here, pinside, ebay, facebook, pinball owners...
Yes, container loads went overseas, also a lot came here (but mostly ropey ones).
If you pay over the odds and are happy then fine otherwise don't get upset when you lose money. I took a bath on ACNC, no one forced me to sell at that price.
Nope, If someone pays the money then I let it go to them. Sold to newbs and collectors alike.
Yes, gazumping is a thing possibly. I'm old school and in the yahoo days you didn't haggle and if you said it was sold it was sold.
Absolutley, I'm in that position.
Now if you are a newb buyer:
If you want the machine don't say you want it and then try to chip me later. If you try I'll just not sell to you (has happened), ever.
Turn up in transport that a pin actually fits in.
If a courier is picking up, I don't want it hanging around. I either need the space or the money (and probably both).
Sold as seen, if you didn't come and check it first then thats not my fault. I am honest and hopefully some would vouch that my games are as described. Once its left there is no warranty. Don't call me and expect me to be a tech service. I am not trade.
Games come and go and there is some horse trading. Get to know people in reality. Go to meets, shows etc. If you're local ask if there's anyone around. We meet every Thursday and will invite if possible.
Have fun! its not life or death if you do/don't get a machine.
D
Deleted member 2463
yrah sorry I’m thinking US price for GZ which which is 6K.
1st Prize for stupidest thread ever. Utterly ridiculous.
Asking members to list games at a higher price so they remain unsold longer and give you a better chance of snagging one? Really?
Most games listed for sale on here are done so by long time members, with good reputations and lots of photos so you can see exactly what you're buying. If you want them to put a game on hold for a week while you organise driving down to have a look at it before you decide to buy then you're in the wrong hobby
Most games listed for sale on here are done so by long time members, with good reputations and lots of photos so you can see exactly what you're buying. If you want them to put a game on hold for a week while you organise driving down to have a look at it before you decide to buy then you're in the wrong hobby
There is no single value for a pin, even on pinballinfo, where there can be a wide range of values given on any particular machine.
The OP does have a point though and that is that the values opinioned on here are often impractically low when actually trying to buy.
The OP does have a point though and that is that the values opinioned on here are often impractically low when actually trying to buy.
Yes, that’s it
I’m 100% the last person in the world who wants to see prices go up. Or wants to price people out
But it feels there’s a mismatch between how long-term owners value a pin and how much it’s worth on the open market. So, someone will go “How much is my Data East Star Wars?” And will get told “£1.5k”, so they decide not to sell here because they suspect they could get £2.5k on eBay. Or someone posts a Wanted ad for a Data East Star Wars with a budget of £1.5k and doesn’t find anything. Or someone posts a Data East Star Wars for £2.5k and gets treated like they’re offering a pile of burnt firewood with a flipper attached, and then someone else posts one for £1.5k and there’s a stampede of six buyers in five minutes at 3am. And once people sense the supply of pins is lower than it was, they don’t want to sell because they might not be able to buy another pin.
It’s not I *want* people to sell Data East Star Wars at £2.5k. It’s just that I’ve noticed pricing at £1.5k is causing the market not to work.
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Bobbdobalina
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Took some reading but agree.
I posted this *after* I’d filled the last spot in my games room…
I’d been wanting to post it for a while, but wanted to be clear that it wasn’t intended to benefit me
So after all this you’re not looking to buy a new pin currently as you have successfully acquired your limit of pins despite none being available, the well priced ones being snagged at 3am and the prices are all wrong tooI posted this *after* I’d filled the last spot in my games room…
I’d been wanting to post it for a while, but wanted to be clear that it wasn’t intended to benefit me
You’ve done well considering the inaccurate picture you’ve painted of the current pin market!
In a nut shell we should price pins higher than they’re worth, so the sensible buyers don’t snap em up quick & newbies get a chance at over paying?!? - what a ridiculous load of tosh…. but it’s your idea so here we go.
You can have exclusive first refusal on any of my pins:
Iron Maiden (Pro) 11k
BK: SOR (Pro) 10k
Metallica (Pro) 9k
A:IQ (Pro) 12k
Elvira 30k
I bet you don’t buy any of them so I’ll price them sensibly (against your idea) and someone will snap them up & you can moan about it
So what your saying is there's a chance I can get your Elvira?
After personally purchasing what I would definitely call a mediocre Shadow if I'd of paid 4.5-5k for it I'd of felt robbed.
It took me over 50 hours to get it in a working state and has to be the worst machine I've ever had the experience of restoring.
The mechs are a royal pain to restore and even rubber replacement has you removing the diverter mech and ramp to reach some!
It's a great game but I wouldn't go throwing cash at it just to spend most of your waking moments getting it working.
It took me over 50 hours to get it in a working state and has to be the worst machine I've ever had the experience of restoring.
The mechs are a royal pain to restore and even rubber replacement has you removing the diverter mech and ramp to reach some!
It's a great game but I wouldn't go throwing cash at it just to spend most of your waking moments getting it working.
Perhaps there are two distinct market prices for people looking to buy a machine privately?
"Traditional" market, where sellers put machine on here at a reasonable price for a quick sale....
Pros: Price. Usually decent photos and description.
Cons: Buyer has to make their mind up very quickly. There is an element of trust.
"Long Game" market, where private sellers put machine on (eBay?) at dealer prices, but they are happy to wait months for the right buyer....
Pros: Buyer can meander around the country kicking tyres until they find the right machine.
Cons: Paying £5k for a Shadow.
"Traditional" market, where sellers put machine on here at a reasonable price for a quick sale....
Pros: Price. Usually decent photos and description.
Cons: Buyer has to make their mind up very quickly. There is an element of trust.
"Long Game" market, where private sellers put machine on (eBay?) at dealer prices, but they are happy to wait months for the right buyer....
Pros: Buyer can meander around the country kicking tyres until they find the right machine.
Cons: Paying £5k for a Shadow.
Pin prices seem to be going up daily.
I valued Shadow at £3K+ as a really nice one I sold on here for a friend was £2800
When buyer picked it up, was more than happy, with condition and would have paid the £3200 asking price if it hadn't had been lowered because of the criticism the price got on here.
All the machines I sell personally are in the great quality to Mint.
I have noticed that one man’s “great condition” is, in my opinion poor and will need a lot. Of work to bring it back to my standard of great.
Price should reflect quality of the game, not just the title.
I valued Shadow at £3K+ as a really nice one I sold on here for a friend was £2800
When buyer picked it up, was more than happy, with condition and would have paid the £3200 asking price if it hadn't had been lowered because of the criticism the price got on here.
All the machines I sell personally are in the great quality to Mint.
I have noticed that one man’s “great condition” is, in my opinion poor and will need a lot. Of work to bring it back to my standard of great.
Price should reflect quality of the game, not just the title.
If this £10K Addams is in the collector quality to Mint range then 10K isn’t far off I suppose.
Every pin I bought seemed expensive at the time. It’s just the way it is
Can’t help but to think these comments “I’ve now filled my gamesroom” and “prices should be higher” are connected.
Higher prices help no one in any shape or form.
I used to willingly lend games to events. Inevitably there’s a chance they get damaged. I never used to care.
Would I lend out my Elvira? Probably not? There’s a huge difference between damage to a 2k game and damage to a £10k one.
At the moment I’m still hosting as I want my games to be played. As prices go up we risk more people deciding to close their collections to other people.
Higher prices mean less machines on site.
Higher prices mean less people entering the hobby.
Personally, higher prices have meant I’m far less likely to swap my machines around. And as I result I am playing far less
Higher prices help no one in any shape or form.
I used to willingly lend games to events. Inevitably there’s a chance they get damaged. I never used to care.
Would I lend out my Elvira? Probably not? There’s a huge difference between damage to a 2k game and damage to a £10k one.
At the moment I’m still hosting as I want my games to be played. As prices go up we risk more people deciding to close their collections to other people.
Higher prices mean less machines on site.
Higher prices mean less people entering the hobby.
Personally, higher prices have meant I’m far less likely to swap my machines around. And as I result I am playing far less
I think I've sussed it. Every time we sell a game add 1k. That way good games are kept longer and therefore stay lower priced than naff games that change hands alot which will eventually price themselves out of the market so only rich collectors keep them and newbies are saved from having to buy naff games.
Or something.
Or something.
So @VeeMonroe really the thread should be "Overpriced pins are ruining the hobby" ?
One could make a case for that with similar points!
One could make a case for that with similar points!
The entire premise for this post is utterly bizarre and ludicrous.
I think I should have put something like ‘the failure to keep up with pinflation is ruining the hobby’.
It’s not that I think pins *should* be more expensive. I think they’re too expensive, and this is bad, for all the reasons @johnwhitfield states above.
I think (a) problem is this expectation that higher prices price people out, but having a four-figure punt on a pin you’ve never played and haven’t seen except in a photo/video is fine provided you’ve met the seller, or someone else has. Or you’re willing to drop everything at a moment‘s notice to drive XXX miles to the seller’s house in a big van
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