Tournament/competitive players - help us choose a pin

[VeeMonroe]

I'm considering having a 'rotator', i.e. a pin that we change once in a while, alongside our permanent collection. We both play in PBR Thursday night league, are hosting a London and SE league event, and are keen to improve our play.

Our budget isn't mega-bucks right now, so we'd probably be looking at a second-hand Stern Prem/Pro, or a new Pro.

My favourite pin I don't own is (Stern) Jurassic Park, but I've played Rush (Prem) at Funland and in PBR league events and it's growing on me. I also hugely enjoy (Stern) Star Wars but am worried about the resale value due to the unbalanced scoring. I understand The Walking Dead is among the best pins for improving ball control and tournament play, but I find it aesthetically terrible and hate the theme.

My husband's favourite pin (we no longer own) is Lord of the Rings (because it bores the sh*t out of me). Mine is Flash Gordon (my husband didn't like it). He enjoys Avengers: Infinity Quest and Harlem Globetrotters on Tour. I'm not a massive fan of A:IQ myself, sadly, as it always feels a bit soulless compared to some of Elwin's other pins.

Please vote/suggest some pins! (I have read the 'pins that make you a better player thread').

 

[Jib]

I didn’t vote in the poll as I’m not a competitive player but you say your favourite pin you don’t own is JP, so personally I’d go for that. Or if it’s going to be a rotator put a wanted ad up for all you’d consider and get the first one you’re offered at a price you’re happy with and trade it when you’re done.

 

[Jackpot]

It's got to be JP Vee, you already said it's your favourite game and it literally forces you to learn how to aim for specific shots and try to control the ball, else you barely score anything. Plus kids love dinosaurs

 

[Matt Vince]

I wouldn't worry about Star Wars losing value, there will always be buyers for that title

 

[Andypc]

Sterns Stranger Things should be on your list

 

[RetroHeed]

I would highly recommend Ghostbusters, though finding one may be the problem, but as a competitive pin I feel would fit perfectly.

 

[Moonraker]

Something totally different to broaden your horizons and really mix it up for you. Gottlieb Stargate. https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2847

It won't break the bank either as it's a Gottlieb. There's even a dedicated parts page for the game if you're worried about spares... https://pbresource.com/Stargate.html

Some people find the repetitive guidance speech annoying but you can cancel it by pressing the flippers at the start of the game.

Lots of modes and interesting features to keep you busy.

 

[VeeMonroe]

It's got to be JP Vee, you already said it's your favourite game and it literally forces you to learn how to aim for specific shots and try to control the ball, else you barely score anything. Plus kids love dinosaurs

My husband is unfortunately not the world’s great JP2 fan. He ’quite enjoys’ it (and plays it he sees it) but isn’t rushing to own it. Hence, why our collection is a compromise between his Bally-Williams fandom and my love of classics/shooters.

Sterns Stranger Things should be on your list

AFM covers that base

Something totally different to broaden your horizons and really mix it up for you. Gottlieb Stargate. https://www.ipdb.org/machine.cgi?id=2847

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t want the potential for further maintenance issues. Also, my favourite Gottliebs are Genesis/TX-Sector. I’ve played Stargate at Medway Pinball Club though and it was great value fun (and a brill theme), but didn’t strike me as a classic ‘git gud’ tourney machine.

I would highly recommend Ghostbusters, though finding one may be the problem, but as a competitive pin I feel would fit perfectly.

Yes, my understanding is it has a giant flipper gap and murder magnets.. I didn’t notice those on the one in Chief Coffee, but - sadly - I’ve never seen many GBs on location to compare.

 

[AlanJ]

Just rotate as often as you can, then it doesn't matter what you buy really?

 

[VeeMonroe]

Just rotate as often as you can, then it doesn't matter what you buy really?

It's a real hassle listing pins for sale/trade, answering DMs, booking Martin, packing pins carefully for shipment, and moving pins in and out of the house. If pins arrive with faults, that's at least a day of our weekend gone fixing them (because it's never just 'a light got loose'). Also, we have our collective favourite six pins in the house (or on the way) currently - our experience is that stuff that falls below that threshold, and which isn't *doing a job*, just doesn't get played...

I was planning to rotate about once every three to six months... So, that sets a minimum bar on how good something has to be. And, bear in mind, we are in innerLondon, so we have probably about 100 pins within a short cycle ride, and 150+ within a train journey. So, the only pins we have in the house currently are one that we've both ended up wishing to play more than is possible on location.

To give an example, when I go to Electrocoin's Stern UK showroom at Funland in Russell Square, I will happily play JP2 for 60 minutes solid, ignoring everything else there. And that's in a room with Mando, LZ, The Beatles, Bond, TMNT, Stranger Things, Rush, etc.

 

[VeeMonroe]

I didn’t vote in the poll as I’m not a competitive player but you say your favourite pin you don’t own is JP, so personally I’d go for that. Or if it’s going to be a rotator put a wanted ad up for all you’d consider and get the first one you’re offered at a price you’re happy with and trade it when you’re done.

I’ve done what you’ve suggested and put up a Wanted ad with a long list. Thanks, everyone

 

[mufcmufc]

Get an Iron Man, put the outlanes all the way out, total brutality (but enjoyable in a sadistic way)

 

[Replay]

Agree Iron Man is your game.

You like 1-3 minute games?

You will get tons of those...

Even getting the GC of 75 million could take a long time!

Added bonus - young children seem to especially like this game.

Not many better games to improve skills.

Only caveat? You won't want to sell it...

 

[VeeMonroe]

Agree Iron Man is your game.

You like 1-3 minute games?

You will get tons of those...

Even getting the GC of 75 million could take a long time!

Added bonus - young children seem to especially like this game.

Not many better games to improve skills.

Only caveat? You won't want to sell it...

You have no idea how many times I’ve been recommended Iron Man (usually in the context of “If you say Fish Tales is your favourite game, have you tried…”)

I’ve put it on my list I’ve played it (at PBR and Medway Pinball Club) and like it, but wouldn’t want to keep it permanently because I can’t stand the graphic design!

 

[Sgt GrizZ]

Our budget isn't mega-bucks right now, so we'd probably be looking at a second-hand Stern Prem/Pro, or a new Pro.

Am I the only one confused by ‘ isnt mega bucks ‘ and ‘ a new Pro’ ?

 

[VeeMonroe]

Am I the only one confused by ‘ isnt mega budget ‘ and ‘ a new Pro’ ?

There are people in this hobby who have multiple Stern LEs… so, caveat worth making before someone offers me a JJP CE!

 

[Moonraker]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t want the potential for further maintenance issues. Also, my favourite Gottliebs are Genesis/TX-Sector. I’ve played Stargate at Medway Pinball Club though and it was great value fun (and a brill theme), but didn’t strike me as a classic ‘git gud’ tourney machine.

That'll teach me for providing a suggestion...!

P.S. I've owned plenty of machines over the years - fun fact modern Sterns (once decent end stops have been fitted) and Gottliebs have the least maintenance issues.

 

[Deleted member 2463]

I would highly recommend Ghostbusters, though finding one may be the problem, but as a competitive pin I feel would fit perfectly.

ghostbusters in a tournament will be set so horrid you won’t want to play it.

All the ball saves off from the scoop etc. I won’t put one in because it’s too difficult to keep ball times reasonable and keep the game fun.

 

[VeeMonroe]

That'll teach me for providing a suggestion...!

P.S. I've owned plenty of machines over the years - fun fact modern Sterns (once decent end stops have been fitted) and Gottliebs have the least maintenance issues.

No, I appreciate the suggestion! Please do make suggestions

Yes, Stern Godzilla has been, thus far, our most reliable pin (she says, fully expecting it to immediately break down). It’s the darned Bally/Williams that are always breaking down. You’re almost tempting me to start advertising for a Genesis

ghostbusters in a tournament will be set so horrid you won’t want to play it.

All the ball saves off from the scoop etc. I won’t put one in because it’s too difficult to keep ball times reasonable and keep the game fun.

@Neil McRae Do you mean you need to put in loads of ball saves to avoid unfair drains (e.g. scoop rejects straight down outlane), and then the play times end up too long?

Either way, I’ll take Ghostbusters off my list...

As you’re a major UK tournament director, and other people (apart from me) may read this thread in future, I’d be interested in your suggestions, Neil?

I think I probably should be looking for an Iron Man, TWD, Whirlwind and JP2 with flexibility into Rush, Deadpool, ACNC and IMDN because they could up at PBR Thursday night league a lot, and at least one family member likes those pins.

 

[Fubar]

The SG at the office requires less maintenance than the DW next to it. They're very reliable.

I would suggest if you want to improve tournament play you have games with different flipper tech to get used to each. So a WPC, a modern Stern, a classic Bally, a Gottlieb, etc. They all feel very different and have various strategies for ball control etc.

 

[David_Vi]

We've had James' Genesis since Pinfest and not once has it had a fault and people know I notice even the smallest issues
Gottliebs appear to be really reliable (when looked after), I don't know why they have got a reputation of being unreliable. We've had Tx, arena and genesis with no issues at all on any of them. I don't know about the newer dmd ones but @MajesticPinball and @OTRawrior have owned or owned Stargate and other more modern Gottliebs and I don't hear of issues.

Fyi Genesis is an evil game. No ball save, no safe feeds (except if it dribbles out from the pops on the right you can live catch). Two little bumper pads which makes it feel like it has four slingshots. The important varitarget shot can often send the ball millimeters from going SDTM unless you react.
Risk reward with the extremely dangerous drops which somehow feed the outlanes

Evil but fun, it's very one more game in the same way fish tales is if set up properly.

I really would have thought fish tales was a good game to improve your play, properly aligned lightning flippers mean you can't always risk dangerous shots or inaccuracy and it's not easy to catch the ball without dead bounces, great game for learning to live catch, sensitive slings that love feeding outlanes. Claustrophobic playfield.

Either way, I’ll take Ghostbusters off my list...

Yo, I'm confused. I thought you wanted games to improve your play? What relevance does it have being a good tournament game have?
They aren't mutually exclusive and your response to Neil makes it sound like as GB isn't often used in comps it's not suitable, which would make sense if you were learning games ready for comps but you're not.

 

[OTRawrior]

Thanks for the suggestion, but I don’t want the potential for further maintenance issues.

Gottlieb System 3s are bomber!

Also, my favourite Gottliebs are Genesis/TX-Sector.

Great games, but the only relation to Stargate is the Gottlieb name, they're a completely different generation and feel completely different.

I’ve played Stargate at Medway Pinball Club though and it was great value fun (and a brill theme), but didn’t strike me as a classic ‘git gud’ tourney machine.

Remember Pete is no competitive chump

Regards, - a Stargate fanboy

 

[thejefu]

In this rare event where knowledge of ruleset is paramount, my vote would be Star Wars. Short ball times and I think one of the best rulesets for tournament play. Huge risk vs reward and skill required on the multipliers - nothing else like it.

Second to that a Lord of the Rings setup for tournament play. Set mine up like this for a while and it was brutal.

 

[M4carp]

Gottlieb - Robowar Can see this being a good comp pin, rare thing though.

 

[VeeMonroe]

The SG at the office requires less maintenance than the DW next to it. They're very reliable.

I would suggest if you want to improve tournament play you have games with different flipper tech to get used to each. So a WPC, a modern Stern, a classic Bally, a Gottlieb, etc. They all feel very different and have various strategies for ball control etc.

We currently have:

• A modern Stern (Godzilla);
• My Fish Tales (which, as @David_Vi points out, is pretty brutal. I added lightning flippers and, everytime I start getting high scores, I re-level/tweak it to make it hard again);
• Alien Poker, which is currently dismantled for a (frustratingly slow) playfield replacement, but which was purchased for shot practice;
• Attack from Mars, which came with wide outlanes;
• My husband’s Creech.

We’ve got a TNA CE coming, which should arrive in May and is its own thing.

I did own a classic Bally, Flash Gordon, but my husband didn’t like it and loathed helping maintain it - so, it left. We owned Lord of the Rings, which my husband loved, but I found it absolutely tedious and practicing shots on it was one of the most unfun things I‘ve done in service to pinball (apart from trying to put small hex screws back in with centimetre-long acrylic nails) - so, that left as well.

We had a situation about a week ago where we only had one pin working, out of five, and I’m now terrified of bringing older pins into the house incase they add to the maintenance burden.

Yo, I'm confused. I thought you wanted games to improve your play? What relevance does it have being a good tournament game have?
They aren't mutually exclusive and your response to Neil makes it sound like as GB isn't often used in comps it's not suitable, which would make sense if you were learning games ready for comps but you're not.

I’m trying to do both, TBH. Hence wanting to rotate pins through the house. There are some modern Sterns (like EHOH) that are rarely going to appear in tournaments, but there are others that seem to appear all the time (and I simply don’t know the rules well enough).

So, a combination of learning rulesets AND mean play. Hence, why I’m looking at TWD and Iron Man, for example.

There’s no point keeping a Ghostbusters for three to six months if there are equally good difficult pins out there, and it’s never going to show up in a tournament. I may as well use the space for something else.

That said, I like Genesis/TX-Sector, but - as others point out - they are rare, and they’re not System 3s. I probably shouldn’t have dismissed Stargate, but I wasn’t wowed by the one at Medway Pinball Club. Don’t know why not, because I love the film, but my impression was lots of centre shots…

 

[Chris P]

You could also just adjust the games you already have to play different. Jack up the steepness of the playfield to increase speed of the game, set it on to tournament mode if available, remove Outlane rubbers, (one of Neil’s favorites ) , put lightning flippers on all of your games just to name a few of the things you can do.

 

[Jib]

I know we all talk a lot about difficult games improving play but have you thought about setting a game up super easy and just practicing flipper skills, nudging and accuracy? I’m not saying I’m brilliant but I’ve improved a lot in almost 2 years and my games aren’t set up hard. JP and TMNT were both on 5 balls for a long time. TMNT even got some co-op games on 5 balls at the beginning!

 

[VeeMonroe]

I know we all talk a lot about difficult games improving play but have you thought about setting a game up super easy and just practicing flipper skills, nudging and accuracy? I’m not saying I’m brilliant but I’ve improved a lot in almost 2 years and my games aren’t set up hard. JP and TMNT were both on 5 balls for a long time. TMNT even got some co-op games on 5 balls at the beginning!

I’d be bored out of my mind…

Genuinely, our Creech arrived with five balls and I changed it back (out of boredom). It’s not even that I’m a good player. It just felt wrong somehow. Unless I’m literally sweating and physically fighting the machine, I don’t find games especially interesting. This is why I like classics (and TNA) so much - the games tend to be brutal and short.

You could also just adjust the games you already have to play different. Jack up the steepness of the playfield to increase speed of the game, set it on to tournament mode if available, remove Outlane rubbers, (one of Neil’s favorites ) , put lightning flippers on all of your games just to name a few of the things you can do.

I think we were hoping to do some rules learning for tournaments, as well as improving play. Hence part of the focus on newer machines. Rotate in machine, learn ruleset, trade/sell on to purchase another pin. The only post-2010 pin where I’ve managed to learn (and remember) the rules from play on location is JP2 and that’s because I went to Funland a lot last year, and played a lot of JP2.

The big problem I’m personally having in Thursday night league (apart from sensory issues around noise/strobe lighting/uncontrolled pain from chronic disease) is with consistency. Even if I’m playing well (for me), I will still bomb the same set of machines week-in-week out. I’m now writing lists and watching videos, and managed to get my score on Future Spa up from <20,000 to 100,000+ yesterday at PBR just by having watched a rules video (and having a short practice). Some of those pins are Sterns 2007 onwards, and it’s really hard to learn the rules from videos for those - they’re two hours long!

TWD, for example, is an absolute f****r. Completely unforgiving if you miss and no idea what you’re supposed to be doing are not a good combination.

 

[Jib]

But if you get a game with deep code it may keep your attention, get one that needs a lot of nudging and flipper control if that’s what keeps your interest. I feel like you’re trying to run a marathon without being able to do a 5km first

You don’t have to set it to 5 balls you can set the outlane posts down so you have more opportunities to practice saving in that area, loosen the tilt so you can actually see how different nudges affect things without ending your game, 6.5-7 degrees so you have more time to think and chance to practice flipper skills etc Then set it up harder once you’ve improved

 

[VeeMonroe]

But if you get a game with deep code it may keep your attention, get one that needs a lot of nudging and flipper control if that’s what keeps your interest. I feel like you’re trying to run a marathon without being able to do a 5km first

I’ve got Godzilla and the code makes no difference at all. I’ve actually got onto the high score table on Mando in Funland, and I’ve drained extra balls on that pin because I got so bored of playing.

The only pins that keeps my attention for ages are JP2 (and long games of Fish Tales), and that’s because - with JP2 - the theme integration is so strong that I genuinely *feel* like I’m hunting dinosaurs and rescuing park rangers by making hard brutal shots, with milliseconds to spare before they get eaten. The rest of the modern Sterns (and JJPs) tend to be a load of images/numbers flying up on screen, with very little connection to what’s going on the playfield. I don’t even look at the screen most of the time.

As such, the games I love tend to give me a lot of kinetic satisfaction packed into a short, brutal game.