The future of pinball/kids and pinball

[Den - aka Wolfgang]

That is actually a really great idea. I definitely choose which pins to play in real life based on whether I've already played them on an app - and so does my son.

I should probably note before it's pointed out by other posters that Connected I think will have functionality to earn free credits and prizes etc which is great, but you are already earning those by playing a real pin; Connected isn't necessarily going to attract new players, but who knows - in a bar scenario which unfortunately is currently scarce in the U.K, if you can track your personal score easily, even if you can't get on the machines top scores, this would likely encourage people to have a go every time they see that machine somewhere (re; the achievements, I'd imagine you can disable them so they don't pop up on the screen during play so they don't interfere)

Re: the future generation of players and getting kids in to pinball, whilst I would've thought kids would be fascinated with a loud mechanical machine which reacts to your skill (or lack there of - with lights/sound, I do get the impressions that most kids just aren't interested in anything outside of videogames or social media for their entertainment. You'd think that kids would love the social and competitive side of say a tournament, but I gather from interactions with say my nephew and friends kids, that these days a lot of teenagers say are actually quite anti-social and low on confidence (likely due to most of their interaction with other people being online/xbox/social media - which is a shame) - in which case, taking part in say a pinball tournament would do them a world of good!

When I was a kid things were different, as others have said. I was massively in to Arcades and would spend all of the money I was supposed to spend on bowling on playing Street Fighter, Smash TV and whichever pin was there (TAF and Lethal Weapon spring to mind which I was crap at) - even then I was mostly focused on arcade games rather than pins (despite probably the best Christmas ever when I was younger being when I was given an Astro Pinball!..) Even though I was obsessed with gaming (Must've spend most of my early teens playing Super Ghouls'n'Ghosts every day), a lot of it was still head to head on SF2, MK2 or Mario Kart at a friends, or in one of the dodgy arcades in Dagenham/Romford where there was always the risk scummy people causing trouble and trying to nick your credits!.. I'd also still get out and play sports and compete in that way- I Think that social interaction and going to a public place to play is just missing now for most kids unfortunately:-(

 

[VeeMonroe]

I should probably note before it's pointed out by other posters that Connected I think will have functionality to earn free credits and prizes etc which is great, but you are already earning those by playing a real pin;

Yeah, I realise that. That's why I don't really see the point. You're already playing a real pin... The main beneficiary seems to be Stern because people are incentivised to play Stern pins, to get free credits and prizes, rather than - say - a TAF or a MMR on the same site.

You'd think that kids would love the social and competitive side of say a tournament, but I gather from interactions with say my nephew and friends kids, that these days a lot of teenagers say are actually quite anti-social and low on confidence (likely due to most of their interaction with other people being online/xbox/social media - which is a shame) - in which case, taking part in say a pinball tournament would do them a world of good!

It's hard for me to judge because my two kids are either too young for social interaction (a toddler) or autistic (and aged four). I'm trying to get my four-year-old boy interested in pinball tournaments because he likes pinball and struggles with what to say socially - so I figure it might help him if he could play pinball with others and talk incessantly about his favourite pins!

 

[The seeker]

Virtual pinball with a headset is very good but you won’t believe me until you try it for yourself that’s just the way it is

 

[Den - aka Wolfgang]

Virtual pinball with a headset is very good but you won’t believe me until you try it for yourself that’s just the way it is

Agreed - before I Flipout I spent a few years with a V Pincab. Recently my other half got me an oculus headset and I've been well impressed with Visual Pinball X in VR.

 

[Doggard]

I’m glad you guys are saying vpx in vr is good, as I’m about to pull the trigger on a pin sim vr

 

[Pooman2084]

Is it easy to run VPX in VR?

I have a very basic vpx install but haven’t tried it in VR yet. Can you just use regular tables or do you need VR specific ones?

 

[Deleted member 2463]

Just to clarify - they are not 'putting games online'. They are connecting physical pinball machines to the internet so you can upload your score and get silly 'benefits' (like how my watch gives me a little badge for walking for 20 minutes on International Women's Day ).

It is not possible to play any JPP, CGC, American and Spooky pinball games on my iPad and Stern's digitisation efforts only cover such classics as Whoa Nellie! Juicy Melons.

It would be nice if they would put pinball games online, for the youngest demographic (or just people who can't access a physical machine), because they don't compete with actual physical pins and they introduce new players to pinball. There is a reason why my four year old is a huge fan of Funhouse, Black Hole and Hurricane - none of which he's ever played in real life. It's very obvious Stern would sell more pins for home use if they digitised their existing and back catalogue. As it is, they lose new buyers to vintage machines because there is not a snowball's chance in Hades that my first pin would have been something I hadn't played.

the games are online. I can ping them, therefore they are online; and more online real time interaction between games is coming. So you will be able to play an opponent in realtime and do challenges in the same way we ran Pinclash, what Stern and Scorbit have done so far is just the start.

What you are talking about is virtual pinball (or as some call it digital pinball) on a games console. Stern looked at this in detail including VR but concluded they couldn’t make a return out of it.

i note the results of expo and all of them have insider accounts with loads of achievements!

1 Escher Lefkoff – age 18

2 Zach McCarthy – age 16

3 Alek Kaczmarzcyk – age 19

4 Jared August – age 18 (?)

T5/6 Nick Mueller – age 20

T5/6 Raymond Davidson – age 28

T7/8 Dalton Ely – age 21

T7/8 Nick Weyna – age 19

 

[David_Vi]

Is it easy to run VPX in VR?

I have a very basic vpx install but haven’t tried it in VR yet. Can you just use regular tables or do you need VR specific ones?

You can use any, but the issue you'll find is you can't see the DMD but if it's a dmd table (ie not alpha numberic) there's an easy work around.

It's great in VR I was awestruck looking at Diner (not made for VR) and the VR version of AFM.
Felt like I was there!

You just need the vr .exe and be aware where the re centre room button is on your keyboard (its 0/Insert on num pad If i remember rightly), otherwise you end up with a pin floating miles away from you, or you're stuck inside the back box

 

[Den - aka Wolfgang]

You can use any, but the issue you'll find is you can't see the DMD but if it's a dmd table (ie not alpha numberic) there's an easy work around.

It's great in VR I was awestruck looking at Diner (not made for VR) and the VR version of AFM.
Felt like I was there!

You just need the vr .exe and be aware where the re centre room button is on your keyboard (its 0/Insert on num pad If i remember rightly), otherwise you end up with a pin floating miles away from you, or you're stuck inside the back box

What Dave said I've only dabbled with it so far, as shortly after getting an Occulus I got my first real pin, so all of my pinball time since has been playing/fiddling with that.
I'm gonna get back in to VPX/VR though, as I need the practice on other games and haven't had the time to visit Flip Out in a while other than the recent tournament.
Took me a bit of messing about to get VPXVR working at first, partly due to being new to VR and how Occulus Air link or whatever works.
Only negative's I will say is that the image can be a little soft and slightly blurry (might be partly due to my settings) and I'm not sure if I could play for very long wearing the headset; felt pretty fatiguing quickly.
As a side note, had a quick go of Half-Life Alyx (sods law, it was on sale not long after I bought it, as my pc is pretty beefy and it was amazing.
As a side note to my side note; I also picked up Ghosts'n'Goblins Resurection for PS4 the other day as it's on sale and think it's brilliant!

 

[VeeMonroe]

the games are online. I can ping them, therefore they are online; and more online real time interaction between games is coming. So you will be able to play an opponent in realtime and do challenges in the same way we ran Pinclash, what Stern and Scorbit have done so far is just the start.

At risk of repeating what others have said, I'm not convinced that playing two different machines over the internet gives a fair competition. To give one example, the slingshots on my Fish Tales behave like the ones on TNA. I, personally, really like that, but it's evidently not a standard feature on 90s Bally/Williams pins, and someone playing my FT against another FT wouldn't have a fair contest.

What you are talking about is virtual pinball (or as some call it digital pinball) on a games console. Stern looked at this in detail including VR but concluded they couldn’t make a return out of it.

Yes, but did they only look at the cost of digitising pinball machines -vs- the amount people are willing to pay for a single digital table? Most people are only willing to pay £3 for a digital pinball table (if that) and, yeah, the R&D cost doesn't recoup. What I'm wondering is whether they also looked at the likely return of running a loss leader on digital pinball in order to get physical sales? I.e. If 1,000 people pay £3 for a digital copy of Deadpool, you've made £3,000 and don't make your R&D money back. However, if 1 of those 1,000 goes onto purchase a Deadpool Premium for £9,000, then - suddenly - you've made £12,000 from the same digital pin.

Which basically makes me think this. Pinball is hard and when money is limited they aren't going to play something that could be over in less than a minute, when they could play something and make the money last longer. Take the cost of playing the machine (and fear of instant failure and loss of money) out of the equation and there is definitely still a huge interest. The stumbling block is them learning what they need to do, when it feels so foreign in comparison to all the games they play on there phones.

It seems that Stern and arcades with new Stern pins would really benefit from:

1. Adding a tutorial mode to their arcade pins, i.e. you pay a credit and you can choose to play your first game as a tutorial to practice all the main shots. This is how modern video games and online board games teach people how to play;
2. Increase ball save times. This benefits the worst players because they get a 'free' ball if they drain quickly;
3. Timed 'free play' mode, i.e. you pay for a credit and you get, say, 5 minutes of play. Then, if you're still learning, you'll drain quickly and play through several games in that time, but if you're a good player, you'll maybe only get through a single game (dependent on the game, of course).

 

[David_Vi]

What Dave said I've only dabbled with it so far, as shortly after getting an Occulus I got my first real pin, so all of my pinball time since has been playing/fiddling with that.
I'm gonna get back in to VPX/VR though, as I need the practice on other games and haven't had the time to visit Flip Out in a while other than the recent tournament.
Took me a bit of messing about to get VPXVR working at first, partly due to being new to VR and how Occulus Air link or whatever works.
Only negative's I will say is that the image can be a little soft and slightly blurry (might be partly due to my settings) and I'm not sure if I could play for very long wearing the headset; felt pretty fatiguing quickly.
As a side note, had a quick go of Half-Life Alyx (sods law, it was on sale not long after I bought it, as my pc is pretty beefy and it was amazing.
As a side note to my side note; I also picked up Ghosts'n'Goblins Resurection for PS4 the other day as it's on sale and think it's brilliant!

Half life Alyx was probably the best gaming experience I've had in decades! I'm a big half life/portal fan and I was awestruck at what they had achieved!

 

[Lecari]

Timed 'free play' mode, i.e. you pay for a credit and you get, say, 5 minutes of play. Then, if you're still learning, you'll drain quickly and play through several games in that time, but if you're a good player, you'll maybe only get through a single game (dependent on the game, of course).

When I went to Pinfest I played Goldeneye which had this feature - when starting a game you could try Beginner mode, which meant you'd play for a minimum time. I thought it was a great idea. I guess they expected more people who are new to pinball to be playing it due to the theme. I'm surprised that newer machines don't have this feature.

I like that the newer Sterns play tutorial when idle showing how to play and what shots to go for. A really good idea too.

 

[Pooman2084]

I managed to get VPX working in VR and was pretty impressed.

On my aging rig I had a decent frame rate and resolution and most importantly the lag was better than any physical vpin I’ve played, better than when I play at 144 FPS on my desktop.

Some of the the tables had v strange lighting but I think these are non VR versions. Is there a repository for the VR tables anywhere?

 

[Den - aka Wolfgang]

I managed to get VPX working in VR and was pretty impressed.

On my aging rig I had a decent frame rate and resolution and most importantly the lag was better than any physical vpin I’ve played, better than when I play at 144 FPS on my desktop.

Some of the the tables had v strange lighting but I think these are non VR versions. Is there a repository for the VR tables anywhere?

Glad you are enjoying it! I've kindif been out of the loop for a while, but for most tables just heading to visualpinballforum(.org?) . I think vpuniverse is another popular site for stuff which voforum won't host (SAM tables and such, although maybe they'll host games which are no longer manufactured now, not sure)
There's various FB groups (VP nation etc) where I think they have an excel file listing most releases (not sure if there are links to files)

 

[PeteB]

Pinball being such big bulky items with a heavy focus on art and flashy things make them incredibly Instgrammable for a pose, which should be enough to lure 15 years olds like the old days (although I probs say better luck with 18-21's) but really it comes down to game appeal. Either in your home collection or on location then you need to be choosing themes that appeal to that age group. Has to be cool and a bit edgy. Pinball in 2021 is generally speaking neither.

Teenagers have never heard of Demolition Man, The Addams Family, or Elvira, or The Munsters. They think Ghostbusters is ancient. ACDC and The Beatles is music granny and grandad used to listen to in the disco hall. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is dumb. Turtles is dumb. The Simpsons is dumb.

Probably the most appealing pins for this market would be Deadpool, The Avengers, Mandalorean, Stranger Things, Guardians of the Galaxy, Rick and Morty and at a push maybe Star Wars.

I have to be honest though - observing the teens in my own circles these days I find it incredibly difficult to pick up on what actually interests them, and that makes me feel old.

 

[johnwhitfield]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen my daughter take a photo of herself next to a game (doubt it would be instagram anyway as she seems to spend 99% of her time on snap chat)

I have though seen her take 10,000+ photos of her own face whilst eating food. Toilets in posh restaurants also seems to be a popular destination choice.

Trying to figure out what teens want is a utter mystery. I made a rookie error of letting her go shopping last week with a card linked to my account. I was fine with the £2.50 lunch purchase at Poundland, less so with the visit to Dior in Mayfair I’ve long since learnt not to question what she buys ever since she returned home with a bag from Agent Provocateur

 

[The seeker]

Mine craft pinball for the kids

 

[PeteB]

I don’t think I’ve ever seen my daughter take a photo of herself next to a game (doubt it would be instagram anyway as she seems to spend 99% of her time on snap chat)

I have though seen her take 10,000+ photos of her own face whilst eating food. Toilets in posh restaurants also seems to be a popular destination choice.

Trying to figure out what teens want is a utter mystery. I made a rookie error of letting her go shopping last week with a card linked to my account. I was fine with the £2.50 lunch purchase at Poundland, less so with the visit to Dior in Mayfair I’ve long since learnt not to question what she buys ever since she returned home with a bag from Agent Provocateur

Haha! Yes they all want to be celebs on social media now. Restaurants, exotic locations, and fashion.

To be fair you're up against it having a daughter anyway, it's always been a boys thing - unless Dior come out with their own pinball lol. Imagine that - the rules being based around collecting certain items of clothing and accessories to build the ultimate outfit. I think it would be a winner! You have to defeat the 'Boss Bitch' at the end.

But its' like what Jordan Peterson says "men are interested in things, women are interested in people". I guess that's just a biological fact we won't ever change.

...and now I'll wait to be cancelled after posting that.

 

[The seeker]

I have yet to meet another person in real life on a lest than yearly basis that even knows what pinvall is , I had a chap come round to see my new shed the other week and he said wow what an impressive collection of juke boxes at party’s sometimes my kids mention pinball and even the dads have a vague look on there face , it’s cool but it’s only cool to us

 

[SpiderPin]

Pinball being such big bulky items with a heavy focus on art and flashy things make them incredibly Instgrammable for a pose, which should be enough to lure 15 years olds like the old days (although I probs say better luck with 18-21's) but really it comes down to game appeal. Either in your home collection or on location then you need to be choosing themes that appeal to that age group. Has to be cool and a bit edgy. Pinball in 2021 is generally speaking neither.

Teenagers have never heard of Demolition Man, The Addams Family, or Elvira, or The Munsters. They think Ghostbusters is ancient. ACDC and The Beatles is music granny and grandad used to listen to in the disco hall. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is dumb. Turtles is dumb. The Simpsons is dumb.

Probably the most appealing pins for this market would be Deadpool, The Avengers, Mandalorean, Stranger Things, Guardians of the Galaxy, Rick and Morty and at a push maybe Star Wars.

I have to be honest though - observing the teens in my own circles these days I find it incredibly difficult to pick up on what actually interests them, and that makes me feel old.

I'm sorry but this is genuinely hilarious to read as an actual Gen Z. Demolition man? Fair game, no one really knows demolition man. The Addams Family is a wildly successful musical and there's literally a new movie about the Addams Family in theatres now. Elvira and The Munsters are the exact same as Demolition man, but its clear that Stern are aiming for the older generation with these themes. Ghostbuster's is a cult classic - everyone my age knows it, and once again a new Ghostbusters movie is coming out in two weeks. Hardly ancient! ACDC are also popular (Watch any live show of theirs and you'll see plenty of kids and teens in the audience), hell the Beatles as well are having somewhat of a renaissance with the resurgence of Vinyl. No-one my age discounts music solely because it's old - people love it because it's old! I mean I love classic rock! Charlie and the Chocolate Factory is consistently rebooted, everyone's read the book and a new movie is coming out next year starring Timothee Chalamet (Who's brilliant in the French Dispatch and Dune by the way!) Ninja turtles are probably less than the cultural force they once were but Wikipedia tells me movies and TV series are still coming out. "The Simpsons is dumb" is an interesting take on the new generations attitude to the Simpsons, with the majority of people my age loving the older series (What TSPP is based on) and not bothering with the new, partially because of how difficult it is to watch in the UK. The Simpsons is timeless. Seriously, it is.

Pinball has many problems with the younger generation that I spoke about on the CC thread, but themes are not one of them IMO. It doesn't come down to game appeal, it comes down to a ludicrously priced second hand market and ever increasing NIB prices.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Haha! Yes they all want to be celebs on social media now. Restaurants, exotic locations, and fashion.

To be fair you're up against it having a daughter anyway, it's always been a boys thing - unless Dior come out with their own pinball lol. Imagine that - the rules being based around collecting certain items of clothing and accessories to build the ultimate outfit. I think it would be a winner! You have to defeat the 'Boss Bitch' at the end.

But its' like what Jordan Peterson says "men are interested in things, women are interested in people". I guess that's just a biological fact we won't ever change.

...and now I'll wait to be cancelled after posting that.

No, but I’m the OP of this thread and a woman… and, thus, I’ll just laugh uproariously at you

 

[johnwhitfield]

I’m going to have to retract my earlier statement. Talked to Becca and she has taken photos in front of games. Well who knew
It’s still a ratio of 1 per 5,000 food/face photos.
I then got told I had to invest in colour changing LED strips in order for her photo opportunities.

 

[PeteB]

I’m going to have to retract my earlier statement. Talked to Becca and she has taken photos in front of games. Well who knew
It’s still a ratio of 1 per 5,000 food/face photos.
I then got told I had to invest in colour changing LED strips in order for her photo opportunities.

Ahahaha! I knew it!

This is the way forward now. In order to save pinball for the next generation we have to give them Instagram/SnapChat opportunities.

 

[AlanJ]

Ahahaha! I knew it!

This is the way forward now. In order to save pinball for the next generation we have to give them Instagram/SnapChat opportunities.

plus the ability to have group sex with your mates on the said pinball machine, with option to live stream to your porn hub account, without the game tilting.

 

[Deleted member 181]

Ok I am a little worried about Jinxing this......... but

My 9 year old , who has has pins in his life since birth , is now on a daily basis asking to play.

Rick and Morty !!!

He absolutely loves it , laughing his ass off at the modes and call outs and even though the game is tough he keeps coming back .

Maybe it's the fact that he really shouldn't be watching Rick and Morty and it's a bit edgy But all I know is that I am

ABSOLUTELY loving playing pinball with my boy again

Also just to add ...... Rick and Morty is absolutely fricking epic