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The Code Journey

James

James

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5Years
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After my MB is a £4.5k game now due to MBr post... which has caused a mini stir, and many more I imagine to shake their head and say nothing (I still think it will be by the way, depending on import numbers too) hear me out on this one.

The introduction of the USB update has added manufacturers the ability to get an art package and almost proof of concept machine into the market, with many more code updates to follow, notable games that have gone from sh! to solid are TWD and BM66 - both games I hugely rate (although the art package on BM66 doesn't speak to me at all, maybe they could re-theme, the re-theme as the Nolan trilogy with the LCD :P)

Here's a starter for 10 though, is the code journey an experience now, could it be that the code updates themselves are actually little bonus's and enhance the ownership journey. Some updates can make a game a completely new experience, and adding code seems to be a ritual for many of "hey, how is this game more relevant now"... renewing the life of a game.

So... game destroying bugs aside (which I am unaware of any in either of the mentioned games, but there may be others) thoughts?
 
Secondary to this, but by no means less exciting - are the homebrew code updates using controllers like PROC. Cactus Canyon Continued has effectively turned an unfinished (but rare) game into a highly sought after machine - assuming you have the know how to convert it. Code can now be written on number of different platforms (skeletongame, mission pinball framework), with the latter being accessible purely through config scripts requiring little or no coding experience. There's about 4 different hardware controllers supported now too, including Spike. Considering how inaccessible rom coding was 10 or so years ago, being able to muck about with pinball code on your laptop is... well mind blowing.
 
I actually quite like the iterative nature of them, though I've never owned a new table, and am unlikely to, they are beyond my means. I like reading about the updates though. I've been part of many public beta (and a few privates) where video games are concerned, and it's always an exciting event when a lot of new content is added.

So much so that if (or hopefully when) I get my hands on a table that is currently new, some eyars down the line, I'd love for it to be possible to downgrade the code to its initial release version, then play it as it was after each update, to experience this in a small way.
 
In the case of Pinball, I’d rather just wait for it to be ‘done’ - as in no further updates due, not sat about waiting for bug fixes that may never actually come - and play the finished article. I sold TWD LE before the the most recent code update, which I didn't expect due to the secretive way Stern was working then & it felt pretty good anyway, which was annoying, so I’m not one of the NIB types that plays about 6 different iterations of a single game throughout the 1-4yrs of updates... partly through the increasingly high price barrier of NIB, but also by choice not wanted to play when incomplete.

I used to love the days of video games on cartridges - done, sealed and delivered. Move on.
 
I feel releasing a game fully expecting to "HAVE" to update it at some random time in the future is nothing more than a money grab for sales TODAY at the long term expense of business.

Updates to code should ONLY be to fix unforeseen bugs and issues that might arise once a bunch of machines make it out into the real world and NOT be accepted as "the norm" by anyone.

That's the philosophy Hompein uses and one we are very likely to stick to.

Buying an 'expensive toy' knowing full well the code is incomplete - well, I wouldn't do it.

"Here are the keys to your new (insert your favorite car brand here) - come back....oh, let's say next year and by then we will be able to update the code and the radio will then work on FM and the gearbox will work correctly. We might even have new code so the sunroof works, won't that be GREAT".

Sorry, but this code update malarky is a con of the highest order IMO!
 
I couldn’t disagree more with the post above.

Look at the number of bugs that games have, even my meteor from 41 years ago has a scoring bug in it that’s now only recently been fixed because the game wasn’t designed for updates to be deployed easily.

Code updates are a requirement and as games start to go online an absolute requirement. Yes I think that there is a balance as to how mature the code is before the game is released Star Wars, GOTG, TWD, B66, Hobbit and DI all launched with code that just wasn’t mature enough and I think both Stern and JJP have realised that affects sales, TWD, GOTG and DI I bought well after release date, B66 sales have moved massively since the code updates earlier this year. Then if you look at IMDN and DP the code was very close to complete when the games where released. With more complex rules and interactions and LCD screens trying to release a game with no updates and getting that right is incredibly hard.

But I look at TNA - when the game went out it was more or less complete and had some bug fixes mostly.

But then an owner came up with an idea that added HUGE value to the game -> reactor scoring and CO-OP modes. In a multiplayer environment the co-op modes on this game are fantastic - imagine if you couldn’t update a game you wouldn’t be able to add this good idea?

Code updates are great and we should learn to love them - personally have had so many core updates for B66 has been a bonus as the game has evolved and got to the top quality it is now.

Neil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Only hobbyists would accept a situation like this. For the most part, products sold to the masses, such as my car example above almost NEVER have code updates because they are not sold before they are actually finished.

Amazing how anyone can think that it's acceptable for a $10K piece of equipment to be sold knowing full well it is far from "fit for purpose".

Blows my mind that this can even be considered as "OK".
 
Homepin said:
Only hobbyists would accept a situation like this. For the most part, products sold to the masses, such as my car example above almost NEVER have code updates because they are not sold before they are actually finished.

Amazing how anyone can think that it's acceptable for a $10K piece of equipment to be sold knowing full well it is far from "fit for purpose".

Blows my mind that this can even be considered as "OK".
Click to expand...

My BMW had a code update last week, Tesla, Audi and many others do code updates.

On Apollo VIII they pushed a code update out to get to the moon quicker.

A million pound MRI scanner gets code updates to improve clarity on the scans detecting more anomalies and saving lives.

We rolled out a code update to n our mobile network so people can now get 800M to their phone.

Boeing and RR push code updates out for a £300M jet airliner to improve fuel usage.

Brains put out many code updates to get TB1 and TB2 to do more cool things!

Code updates are good - welcome to the 21st century!

Neil.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
Stern are getting away with it, because pinballers are so into the next new toy ( nothing wrong with that ), they buy any old game on the nod of another couple of pinballers. Then 3 weeks later they want the next new toy.
Although I think Stern are very bad with coding, in fact a disgrace, it actually is good for the hobby because new games are shifted very quickly.
I have been offered an im and deadpool with over a thousand pounds off the pinball heaven price in the last week .
Games I have bought twd le for 3 k off after the owner had it 2 months, kept it for 18 months then swapped it for a Smaug Hobbit that was also new and over 8k. ( the buyer has posted that it’s the best deal he has done, and maybe it was , but I was very happy too ).
Ghostbusters premium 2 k off
Afmr 2 k off with under 50 plays

So god bless sterns bad code and all who buy new I say, for they help the rest of us no end .
We are all mad in this hobby one way or another :) I know I am:thumbs:
 
There are 2 separate issues here.

  1. Should we expect games to be released which are, basically not coded or have bugs?
  2. Should there be the ability to update game code later down the line, and should we expect it?
1. Clearly games have been released over the last few years which could not be considered anywhere near complete (just some of them listed by @Neil McRae above). The fact that it's so easy to update code now - just download to a USB and plug in - means that games are being released with just enough code to be able to put on site and start earning money. Then when the homeowners get the machine and start playing, they are effectively being used as Beta testers for the code.
It's the degree to which the code is complete is the issue. Stern used to take the p!$$ with games being released with many advertised (on the playfield or info card) features simply not there ( what are cannon inserts on AcDc for?). However, there seems to have been a concerted effort over the last year to release games much more complete, and as importantly get updates out much quicker in response to found bugs.

2. Once bugs are fixed, should we expect game code to be updated, and new features added, at a later date, based on feedback from the playing public?
Personally, I don't think AS needed anything like the update it received. There were a few bugs, and sound bites missing, but the game played fine - it just wasn't as good as it could have been. GotG got updates based on feedback and is now probably one of Stern's greatest games.
If you are buying a game you can only judge it, and thus make a decision to buy, based on the code it is running there and then. If you like how it plays great, if not don't buy it based on the thinking that it'll get updates and change into something it isn't - that's where all the anger comes from, but as long as Stern continue to sell massive numbers of machines as soon as a new game is announced, what is there motive to change? (Don't start spouting about customer service, because quite frankly they are a business, in the business of making money and pinball is merely the means by which they do it.)

TL;DR
Yes we should expect games to be released more fully coded, but it's not a major issue if the game is nearly complete. Bugs are found all the time in absolutely everything that has some kind of software (how often does your phone send down updates?), the more people you have 'beta testing' the more bugs are going to be found.
But we shouldn't be buying games on the hope of what it 'might' turn in to based on the assumption that the code will change.
 
Whats happening isn't that different to most electronics these days.

You buy a TV, there could be updates for it
You buy a smart phone or tablet, there will be updates for it
You buy any PC or console game, there will be updates for it
Christ even my daughters interactive playbook had a firmware update available when we bought it

Where it comes to pinball, so long as the games are not rushed out of the door in a totally incomplete state (think TWD / BM66) I think its fine. So long as most of what is intended to be in the game is there then fine. Then of course once you have a player base and feedback you can fine tune things like scoring and add the final bits of the code. Again if people didn't blindly rush into buying games at launch based on theme alone then things could improve. I didn't buy TWD until version 1.41 when it got REALLY good. Launch code was a joke.

Plus it's not like the golden age didn't have ROM revisions and those must have been more of a pain to update than simply putting a USB drive in!
 
Software generally has been moving further down the ship it and update later model for 20+ years, and it is ease of updating that is driving it. You can ship products earlier to start to make the revenue back on your investments in a way that just wasn't possible when you had to ship out a new chip for an update. That's become, in many places, an excuse for shoddy testing and a disregard for the launch day experience, both for hardware devices and general software release.

I think that any product should be functionally complete when released, but the huge advantage now is that by building in a simple user controlled update mechanism, you have a cheap and easy way to add features and fix bugs that should be of benefit to the buyer. Shipping without advertised (and paid for) features isn't a great idea, but whilst companies get away with it, it'll continue.

The advantage of being able to fix that 'game breaking' bug, which happened to slip through QA/testing is huge for those times when genuine mistakes were made.

Not without risk, as Apple found out last week when it bricked a load of watches - the risk of a bad update doing that and the potential huge costs of fixing it may be why some still don't offer OTA updates.
 
I can see no reason nowadays why the hardware can't be designed to accept code updates easily.

No code is perfect, and often it isn't until it escapes the lab so to speak and customers start doing their thing with it that bugs start getting found. A finite number of actual hours played on the machines can only find so many issues, and nothing replaces good old fashioned end user stress testing.

Code updates could be something as simple as adjusting the difficulty of a mode that the company finds is too hard for people to reach, or adjusting timings on electronically controlled parts.

Forgetting about modern stuff, WPC introduced timing changes to the ASIC to reduce/eliminate ghosting, and that's back in the days of TZ being released. Code improvements can and do improve an overall experience after something has been shipped.

I agree with the above that things should ship feature complete, but by the same token updating can add new features that simply weren't available at the time of release. My Denon amp - for example - had Atmos patched in with a firmware update a few months after I'd bought it. The TV likewise has had various tweaks as a result of end user feedback ("technicolor" reference colour profiles springs to mind)
 
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