TAF Ball Launch after ball locked

pinballmania

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The not used switch should not be on ever. So somewhere you’ve got an incorrectly wired switch or diode. 1st suspect is the bookcase closed switch, as it doesn’t seem to change and is in the square of the unused switch and the centre swamp switch. Pull the connector apart to the bookcase switches and retest. See if the phantom unused switch goes away or not.

You also have something strange going on with the directly grounded switches on the left hand side of the matrix.
 
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pinballmania

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A good way to work through this is to clear all the active switches. So disconnect the power supply to the optos , discontent the coin mechanism ( the left column of closed switches ) and do whatever you have to do to clear the entire matrix except always closed switch. Then test the switches you are interested in for correct operation. Then reintroduce the rest of the switches one at a time and retest. That will identify which element is interfering.
 
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ylumno3

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OK, thanks for this I'm going to have to go and digest it and try and figure out what it means for my machine, I do have a couple of questions, during gameplay are you saying that the balls won't lock unless the bookcase has been opened as I don't think that's always been the case with mine, I've not got the machine to a position where I've played it enough to activate thing flips but what points you to it not working properly, as for the not used switch I'm sure i've seen something somewhere that this switch being activated is a chip fault, is that right.
 

Durzel

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It ought to be impossible to get into the vault if the bookcase is closed, save for an airball (dirty pool?).

As I understand it (and I could be wrong) WPC software will try to make the best of illogical game states and malfunctioning switches to keep the game running and taking coins.

The game thinking the bookcase is closed sounds like it would be tangentially related to the core probem of the 2nd ball not being kicked out, but since you have several switch anomalies including one that should never happen ("Not Used") the logical conclusion is that there is an funky diode or other electrical gremlin somewhere.
 
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ylumno3

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Sorry I didn't see all the posts before I replied, I'll get back to the machine and let you know how I get on, thanks again for all the help.
 

MartinY

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Just to confirm, after you've spelled "Greed", the bookcase should open, allowing you to lock the ball in the bookcase, the little thing ramp or (depending on settings and lock number) the swamp. Looks like your bookcase isn't opening.

Just like the bookcase optos, the thing opto (far left exit from the graveyard) should be closed - it's open in your setup meaning (to me at least) that the opto isn't working. It should close when you break the light with your finger or a ball).

Looks like you have a number of issues and you should definitely follow Andy's advice above!
 
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ylumno3

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So it continues, bookcase and not used switch seems to have sorted themselves, I i removed switches and diodes and found nothing wrong put them back together again and the indications are away, it never resolved the next ball not kicking out problem but I now have a host of other switches triggered that should or shouldn't be.

78868
 

Durzel

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Depends on game state really. Was that taken after you powered on the game or in the middle of a game?

Obvious anomalies appear to me to be:

1-5 and 1-7 closed (left through, right through) but not centre trough (1-6). I can't see how this could be possible - it would mean there's two balls in the trough with a gap between them.

2-5 (Right flipper lane) and 6-5 (Right ramp top) shouldn't be closed except when a ball activates them during gameplay (ie. not in switch test)

Rest look ok assuming you've locked one ball when you did the test (7-3 - Swamp lock lower, 8-1 - Bookcase open and 8-5 - Thing up option).

Your Thing flips opto (5-7 - Bumper Lane Opto) should be closed, and I don't know what's going on with your coin door switches. They seem to be consistently closed. Think these are coin chutes 1-3?

It does sound like you're going to have to get to a known good state by unplugging things and then connect things until you see anomalies. I assume the batteries aren't on the CPU board?

Hopefully some experts on here will chime in.
 
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ylumno3

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Yes looks like I've got a whole load of work with the swicthes, I simulated that state with game on it's not the state it's in when it's first switched on, yes the batteries are on the board, the original problem is still a concern as even with the switches in the states they're in the ball will kick out when the second ball is locked but not the first.
 

Durzel

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I'm not an expert but it might be worth you putting up a high resolution photo of your CPU board, around the battery area / bottom half of the board, just to try and rule that out.
 
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ylumno3

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A quick question, I've disconnected a few things to try and figure out what is triggering what, I disconnetced the opto's from the bookcase when I trigger the lower swamp million switch it's also triggering bookcase 3 opto, could this be a board (opto) fault ? would one switch trigger if the an LM339 chip is faulty
 

pinballmania

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Post the latest image of the switch matrix. Bad lm339s are possible but it’s still most likely a bad switch wiring elsewhere.
Have you cleared all the other closed switches back to just ‘always closed’ closed?
 
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ylumno3

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I've attached a couple of photos, one with the bookcase opto's disconnected and then one when I reconnected them again. The fact it's changing everytime I do something but I'm not finding any faults is starting to become a bit annoying7912279123.
 

Durzel

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Check the wiring for this switch...

79124

When you reconnect the bookcase optos this switch is closing. It should not be closed.

Lower Swamp Millions is column 4, row 5. Bookcase Opto 3 is column 5-5, and Right Ramp Top is 6-5. This suggests to me you have a partial row short on 5.

I found this information online for someone else who reported a ground short in that row:
The manual shows the switch matrix row 5 info as white -green, j208-5 , and u19-11. This info means that a white-green wire will be common to all the switches in that row and end up at the cpu board jack plug j208 pin 5. J208 is on the cpu board, 1 row of jacks above the bottom row, the last jack on the right. Set the machine for switch test and unplug the plug to j208. If the row short goes away the problem is in the playfield, if the problem doesn't go away the problem is on the cpu board. If its a cpu problem, turn off and unplug machine, unplug all cpu jacks, and remove the cpu board. Inspect the cpu board for any corrosion near j208 and u19. Remove batteries from cpu, un-solder and remove u19. There might be a diode in between j208 pin 5 and u19 pin 11. This can be found by following the trace on the back side of the board. When found test diode for a short, replace if shorted. Solder in a ic socket and install a new u19. U19 is a lm339 quad comparator available from marco. Be careful the ic dot or notch is installed in the correct direction. Re-install batteries, re-install cpu board, and test.
Hope the above helps.
 
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ylumno3

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I thought the optos were the other way round i.e. they'll always be closed unless you break the light which then opens it, which ties in with the photo you sent me of your matrix. I might have to take a break from it for a while before I do something rash, there's matches in the garage.
 
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Durzel

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I'm not an expert on this stuff so apologies if I'm not helping :(

You're right about optos. The bookcase ones in your photo are fine (not sure why opto 4 isn't showing though). 6-5 is not an opto though, and is showing as closed. 6-5 is a micro-switch on the ramp in the top left of the playfield. It should not be showing on your Switch Edge test unless a ball has closed it.

Likewise Lower Swamp Millions (4-5) is a rollover switch, the fact triggering it also triggers 5-5 is telling I think.

The common factor seems to be row 5.
 
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ylumno3

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Everything is a help as it keeps my mind working instead me losing the plot with it, it's frstrating when the optos appeared to be working as expected the last time (photo's on the first page) they were plugged in and now they're not and 6-5 is triggering, going round in circles.
 
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ylumno3

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So as per has been the case recently I've went out to the machine switched it on and have got a different indication of the switches closed from last time, this time the ticket opto ? is closed, does anyone know where this is located


79301.
 

pinballmania

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There isnt one. It’s used to dispense tickets if you have a ticket dispenser fitted.
 

Durzel

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It's not shown in the manual. Will go and have a look at my machine and see if I can find it. Aren't tickets something to do with credits?

Edit: Beaten to it
 
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pinballmania

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Perhaps approach this from a different angle. Test the cpu first. Get it into switch edge test then remove all the switch input connectors from the bottom. Then take a piece of wire and hold it onto one of the outputs for the the first row. Touch the other end to each of the column inputs. Each connection should produce a corresponding input on the switch matrix. When you’ve gone through the first row repeat for the second and so on. At least this will tell you whether you have a cpu fault or not.
 
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pinballmania

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That’s your problem. Add it to your list of phantom switches that are appeAring closed when they shouldn’t be.
 
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ylumno3

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ok so I disconnected the column and row plugs from the board and bridged the connections with a bit of wire and I have a problem with row 5. With the wire on row 5 column 1 it also triggers column 2, on 5, 2 it also triggers 3, 5,3 triggers 4, etc etc, up to column 8. I can't quite get my head around where the fault is though, apart from on the board somewhere.
 

Durzel

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So you know the fault is on the CPU board, not in the wiring.

PinWiki suggests a blown ULN2803 at U20.

You could get a photo of it I guess, we could see if there's anything obviously wrong. A short to coil power at some point or battery damage could do it.