State of the NHS

[DRD]

This makes painful listening. But I believe it is genuine. My friend who is a GP says similar things. My own recent experience also supports this.

If you need medical treatment, it might be time to sell a machine.

29 minutes in

Don't shoot the messenger

 

[DAFlippers]

Some sensible comments and then slag the left, of course it is the Torygraph. The NHS management is dictated by Government and Governments do not understand what they are doing. Private heathcare is not the answer, look at USA - only get sick if you are rich.

David

 

[Tucks]

I've had private healthcare for 30 years. Worth every penny.

 

[M4carp]

NHS has been great for us over the years so no complaints here. Wife is just in for an operation that took no time, she got in on a cancellation.
Two of my kids work for the NHS and another soon hopefully as in his 5th year medical school.
Parents in London are always moaning about the hospitals and GP’s.
Been lucky here.

 

[DAFlippers]

I've had private healthcare for 30 years. Worth every penny.

...and when you are unable to afford it.....

 

[Tucks]

Think I'll be OK. Thanks for the concern

 

[kev a]

Insurance is a must here..........

 

[DAFlippers]

Think I'll be OK. Thanks for the concern

...and those that can't afford it?

 

[Tucks]

That's what the NHS is for.

 

[VeeMonroe]

That's what the NHS is for.

I don't think that's right. People shouldn't live, or die, dependent on how much money they have.

The US healthcare system is inhumane, pure and simple.

 

[Arv]

...and those that can't afford it?

Good old NHS.

 

[Tucks]

I'm afraid that's life. Was taught at a very early age that life is not fair, which it isn't, but knowing this helps you make better decisions.

The NHS would collapse without private healthcare. It needs reform and privatising now. Yes, the French/Belgium system is better and insurance based is the way to go. There is a reason why no country follows our health system is because it doesn't work.

Fertility is a lifestyle choice. I spent tens of thousands on fertility treatment many years ago but no one forced me to have kids. Life is all about choice.

 

[AlanJ]

I don't think that's right. People shouldn't live, or die, dependent on how much money they have.

Think it's been like that since the beginning of money.......

 

[VeeMonroe]

I'm afraid that's life. Was taught at a very early age that life is not fair, which it isn't, but knowing this helps you make better decisions.

Healthcare is a social good. It's like education. Say, for example, if people can't afford private schooling, their kids can't go to school. Now, you urgently need a gall bladder operation. Oops, there aren't any gall bladder surgeons because not enough people could afford to educate their child to be a surgeon. What a shame...

If people have long-term, preventable, treatable conditions then they a) can't work - so, you either give them benefits or they starve. Okay, you let them starve, so now b) they're more likely to commit crimes to feed themselves/their families. So, now you've got a crime wave and c) you have a huge entirely preventable drain on the country's GDP. This isn't hard, even arguing from a right-wing economic POV. Stupid American libertarianism - it is stupid...

The NHS would collapse without private healthcare. It needs reform and privatising now.

My understanding of the Belgium system is that it has private, and public components, and most of the social insurance is organised through the government (https://www.expatica.com/be/healthcare/healthcare-basics/the-belgian-healthcare-system-100097/). So, not the US system at all.

There is a lot of confusion about this in the UK, which is why everyone is so defensive about the NHS. Ultimately, no one wants the US system (except for Americans with full insurance) for entirely good reasons - it's uneconomically expensive and doesn't cover most of the population, which is failing on 2/3 of the criteria that a healthcare system should go for.

Fertility is a lifestyle choice. I spent tens of thousands on fertility treatment many years ago but no one forced me to have kids. Life is all about choice.

There are numerous studies showing that infertility is actually more stressful than cancer. It is, effectively, a living death. I think it's entirely appropriate that people should be offered IVF to have one child, which is what does happen, but there is a postcode lottery of how many cycles you can have and the treatments clinicians are willing to give. This is sufficiently stringent that, in practice, the private sector is bigger than the NHS one.

 

[Tucks]

Healthcare is a social good.

Healthcare is a business

There are numerous studies showing that infertility is actually more stressful than cancer. It is, effectively, a living death.

If you can't have kids, that's life. I know, I've been in that situation but to say 'it's a living death' is ridiculous. Either adopt or grow up.

Why should the NHS (everyone's money) pay for someone to have kids? Doesn't pay people not to have kids.

Anyhow, NHS needs reform and spending cuts. If one NHS Trust can have 80 diversity managers on £80k a year and Climate officers (ffs), it has too much money.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Healthcare is a business

Nope. Unless education is also a business...

If you can't have kids, that's life. I know, I've been in that situation but to say 'it's a living death' is ridiculous. Either adopt or grow up.

Why should the NHS (everyone's money) pay for someone to have kids? Doesn't pay people not to have kids.

Okay. So, you don't pay for people to have kids because kids are their choice. So, you also don't want to pay the NHS for maternity care (why should you? Also a lifestyle choice), you don't want to pay for nursery care (obviously) and - more importantly - for schooling those kids. After all, having kids is a choice so why should you pay for their education? As a result, anyone who wants to have kids needs to give birth, unassisted, in a paddling pool in their back garden and then pay for private education. Can you imagine the birth rate in this scenario? Or which people will choose to have kids (clue: not the intelligent responsible ones).

Now, you reach retirement age. Who is paying your pension, exactly? Who is paying the taxes for you to have healthcare for age-related issues? (presumably, you say, you'll self-fund all that yourself). But who will deal with the paperwork? Who will be qualified to treat your healthcare complaints? Who will repair your bath and deal with electrical problems in your house? Well, the small demographic of children who you refused to pay for earlier - who are, in large numbers, illiterate and who have a higher proportion of birth-related congenital disabilities than you would expect.

So, guess what, in your more vulnerable moment, you will be screwed. Sorry about that... there is such a thing as society.

As I say, your view set comes straight from the US Republican Party, mostly from the libertarian arm, who believe they're not part of a society because they live in rural Idaho 100 miles from the nearest supermarket. It doesn't work there particularly well, and it really doesn't work here!

 

[Tucks]

Wow, straight to labelling me because you disagree with my views. Opinions are just that, no need to get nasty.

As for the pension argument, I have about 7 pensions, well funded so certainly won't be relying on a state pension. This will also cover my healthcare costs if needed.

Like I said, we all have a choice in life.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Wow, straight to labelling me because you disagree with my views. Opinions are just that, no need to get nasty.

Sorry, wasn't intending that to sound nasty Tone on the internet isn't the easiest to figure out, is it?

It was rhetoric - no offence meant, and the 'you' was meant rather like the royal 'we'

Genuinely, what you're suggesting doesn't work. It doesn't work especially well in the US, who have a smattering of public services. The best example, however, is from talking to someone who worked with me for a while who was from an upper-middle-class Nigerian family. Genuinely, from what I understand, Nigeria apparently has no public services and, as a middle class person, you spend all your income self-funding pretty basic stuff. There is a reason governments exist, and it's not just to shoot at Adolf Hitler-types from time-to-time - collective purchasing of certain goods and services simply works better overall.

 

[Tucks]

No problem. Something needs to change though because the NHS isn't working now.

 

[Fubar]

I'm not interested in the politics, but I can perhaps give some input from someone who has actually experienced another system (and not just on holidays). Lived the first 30 or so years of my life in Switzerland. Had our first baby there, and the second here in the UK. Had few other experiences with the NHS. Get private cover (Bupa) through work and used that a couple times too.

In Switzerland, health insurance is mandatory by law, but it's private and there are many providers who have to cover what's in the law, so prices end up similar (competition). Everyone pays the same regardless of salary (great for top earners), and there are state subsidies if you're on low/no income. For example, I used to pay around 250CHF/month (about £220) for the most basic cover, and that had a 2000/yr excess (which I never reached), so effectively any visit to the doctor I had to pay for out of pocket. You can pay more to have a lower excess, and also pay extra to have things like private rooms (should you be hospitalised), and cover for "alternative" treatments like physio etc. Another example, my parents pay over £400 per month, each (they're retired btw). Kids "only" cost around £60-70. All these costs vary by canton - so you will pay significantly more in Geneva than somewhere in the sticks. To put these numbers into perspective, someone working an average job might be making 4-5k CHF gross per month, so to support a family of 4 you're looking at easily over 10% of that going to health insurance! If both parents are higher earners they would pay the same net amount, so a much lower % of their income (unfair imo).

These healthcare costs are the nr 2 reason for people to go into debt, after taxes. (Which are also very different but that's for another day!) The way the excess works means most people pay a lot but get nothing. Glasses & dentist are not covered anyhow.

The way the system is setup creates a tug of war between the hospitals and insurers: the hospitals usually want to turn a profit and tend to overbill, whereas the insurers are always fighting to not pay (as they do!), which has created a very complex billing system that everyone hates (Tarmed). My doctor friend tells me that the hospitals employ full-time people to add extra stuff to the bills, and these positions pay for themselves! Unsurprisingly, both the hospitals/clinics as well as the insurance companies all make massive profits (and they for the most part privately owned). As a result the premiums rise every year and people complain a lot about this.

Overall the system creates an incentive to overdiagnose and overtreat, in stark contrast to our experience here in the UK where the incentive is to pragmatically control costs. For example: during pregnancy, there is a gynecologist appointment every month, in his private practice with his ultrasound machine. Nice to see baby every month, but costly! Here, we had the 3 & 5 month checkups done by a midwife/nurse, and things only got involved in case of complications.

Our biggest and perhaps only gripe here is that it's very hard to see a GP, as the village practice is way oversubscribed. You have to spend hours on the phone and they are generally technologically-impaired. Private insurance in comparison I can get a 10-minute video call with a GP the same or next day via their booking system/app.

Comparing our 2 pregnancies & births ... Overall we liked the UK one better I must say! This is partly down to the culture here being much more human & compassionate, which counts for a lot in those moments. The swiss doctor who did the C section for nr1 was beyond rude and showed negative human skills during the operation, shocking! The same operation at the Rosie in Cambridge was much nicer with the staff even singing at the end During pregnancy the more hands-off approach didn't bother us, although maybe that's because it was the 2nd time round.

Anyway, long story short, it's not always greener on the other side. Incentives matter a lot.

Edit: oh crap that's a wall of text ... Sorry!

 

[DAFlippers]

Like I said, we all have a choice in life.

You have a choice as long as you are in a position to change something. If you are someone born into the wrong environment, then you are less able to make such choices. You have been lucky and I would hope you appreciate just how lucky you have been.

David

 

[Tucks]

Don't really think luck came into it. I always find it amusing that people refer to rich and successful (certainly not refering to myself here) people as 'lucky'. What are the odds of that!

If people don't like their life then change it. Victim mentality really holds people back.

 

[VeeMonroe]

Don't really think luck came into it. I always find it amusing that people refer to rich and successful (certainly not refering to myself here) people as 'lucky'. What are the odds of that!

If people don't like their life then change it. Victim mentality really holds people back.

Speaking as someone with at least one chronic illness, people can find it hard to change things for reasons outside of their control and there is a lot of ‘luck’ involved. Ill health is not something you ask for, but means you need more help while having fewer resources to pay/work for it. That’s a vicious circle. It can happen to anyone and, as a result, a compassionate society understands that everyone contributes incase it happens to them.

Likewise, people’s talents are a heck of a lot down to luck. My older son is autistic with a 30-point hit to his verbal intelligence. If he was a ’average’ kid, that level of language disability would mean he would have quite serious support needs. There is another little boy in his class who is, indeed, non-verbal autistic with a learning disability and spends most of the time crying and evidently has no idea what’s going on (I’m unsure if he’s toilet trained). He should be at special school but, unfortunately, there aren’t enough places.

As my son has an assessed non-verbal IQ of 148, which he achieved through a genetic lottery, his verbal IQ is still above average and he can seem a bright, but apparently ordinary, little boy despite needing the support of half a teaching assistant at school. Several people on this forum have even met my little ‘flipper beast’ - he is pretty good at Gigi. Hence, he is able to compensate pretty well, and will get better with age. However, that’s not down to his efforts - it’s luck - and, if he becomes a famous engineer in the future, it will be as a result of us supporting and nurturing him, and his hard work, yes, but - also - it will build on his pre-existing talents in the way that his poor-little classmate will never be able to.

A compassionate society understands that some people lose at birth, and some people lose later in life, and that most people become old and frail. Any of us can be, and will be in that boat at some point in our life, and it’s our responsibility, collectively, to do what we can for each other.

 

[DAFlippers]

Don't really think luck came into it. I always find it amusing that people refer to rich and successful (certainly not refering to myself here) people as 'lucky'. What are the odds of that!

If people don't like their life then change it. Victim mentality really holds people back.

Where, when and into what environment you are born into is luck. You seem to believe that you forged your destiny and others can also do so but that is not the case.

FYI I have been successful and have money however I appreciate others do not have the luck I have had.

David

 

[DRD]

I wonder how many of those folk you see on TV who state "the nhs is the best service in the world" have actually experienced healthcare abroad.

I have experience of the Australian (too far), French, South African and UK health systems.

UK private hospitals tend to have limited facilities, lack A and E, may well be staffed by consultants working a second job at 9pm, they are clearly grossly inefficient operations ......

Have an accident in the UK, wait 4h ?, 12h ?, 24h ?

Accidents, big operations, small operations, scans, dentistry, physio, medicals ..... wherever possible I would have everything health related attended to in South Africa.

 

[DRD]

@VeeMonroe

There are numerous studies showing that infertility is actually more stressful than cancer. It is, effectively, a living death.

Have you thought about how infertile couples might feel reading comments like this ?

Or how women, specifically, with reproductive cancers might feel reading this ?

I have rather too much experience of female reproductive cancers. When I held a UKCS event at my house my chosen charity was Ovarian Cancer Action. The stark and time-preasured choice facing those affected - die of cancer or have emergency operation resulting in sterility and immediate menopause. I don't think "living death" would make happy reading for women whose entire sense of self and future life plans may have been changed overnight.

 

[VeeMonroe]

@VeeMonroe


Have you thought about how infertile couples might feel reading comments like this ?

Or how women, specifically, with reproductive cancers might feel reading this ?

I have rather too much experience of female reproductive cancers. When I held a UKCS event at my house my chosen charity was Ovarian Cancer Action. The stark and time-preasured choice facing those affected - die of cancer or have emergency operation resulting in sterility and immediate menopause. I don't think "living death" would make happy reading for women whose entire sense of self and future life plans may have been changed overnight.

Please don’t mansplain this to me.

I currently have surgery booked to determine whether I have ovarian cancer or whether I *just* have 10 years of infertility due to such severe endometriosis that my ovaries are now glued to my bowel…

As I have raised ovarian tumour blood test markers, there aren’t actually any other options. What fun.

Oh yes, and I’m seeing an IVF clinic on Thursday to see whether I should have this surgery immediately or whether it would be better to wait until I’ve done further IVF incase it damages my ovarian reserve. So, yes, I am facing a possibility of immediate menopause, sterility or possible future early death. Unlike the vast majority of ovarian cancer patients who are postmenopause (statistically speaking).

Nope, I’m not joking

 

[Paul]

This is a VERY sensitive topic. Whilst i'm sure we all agree that the NHS is in a dire situation, it is what it is. This coming from someone who has had to drive my better half to Resus twice in the last 6 months as even though she cannot breathe apparently thats not "life threatening" enough.... Car parks full of ambulences that are unable to do their job due to hospitals that are "full"... caused (IMO) by a lack of staff and hospitals unable to discharge people due to a lack of decent social care.....

So whilst i completely get that everyone has their challenges, this does affect everyone, and everyone's issues are #1 to them.

To this end, what one person will say, others will disagree with and then we go round and round... I will close this thread - only because i fear that it will only desend into people disagreeing and getting hurt by others comments. Please dont read any more into this (as there isnt anything)