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Ring main wiring circuits

BallyWilliams suck

BallyWilliams suck

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Joined
Jul 21, 2011
Messages
456
Hi everyone

My electrician is asking about the power taken by various machines, including inrush currents to be able to wire up circuits for one of our buildings.

Personally, I've had several data east games tripping a 16a breaker on startup, where as Bally Williams games must have a softer start, as they don't tend to.

He's saying that if the games do indeed draw 16a plus on startup, that we would need a serious amount of cabling for a room to house perhaps 40 machines.

He suggested at first that each machine would need its own separate supply, then went on to talk about other confusing options, including 6.5mm cable per feed, and having two per breaker.

I guess what I'm asking, is can anyone tell me the inrush and operating specs for pins (I appreciate many will vary between makers, or EM/SS etc).

We have a three phase power supply, but trying to avoid a wall full of breakers per room. Initially, I was hoping a "master switch" would be thrown to power on the full room, but I doubt that's going to be possible. Turning on each circuit at a time will probably be the way - but again will be an issue if there's more than a couple of games per circuit...... or can we have several games per circuit, but just turn them on one by one to avoid trippage??!?!


HELP!
 
We did a few experiments, and upgraded a single 16B breaker to a 16C, which made little difference. Talk was then onto whether a D type breaker would be safe to use or not. This was only an experiment on a single socket, so the theory would be applied to a larger circuit......
 
If you are wanting to run 40 machines then you will definitely need multiple circuits. Especially if you want to turn then all on at one
 
Have you got a 3 phase rcd on the supply? I have had problems with these tripping with a surge. Have cured the problem with a time delay trip! I have a 50 amp type c feeding an 8 way board with 16 amp type c breakers, one machine per breaker. I have 6 machines on the consumer unit and all 6 start at the same time with no tripping. How many machines per room? My thinking is a single phase sub main to each mcb unit from a main three phase board where you would be able to turn on each sub main one at a time. Have been a sparks for 40 years!
Shame about the Fireball having trouble getting parts for mine.
Let me know if this helps. Dave.
 
I've had 12 machines on a 32a type b mcb ring all being played at the same time in a league meet and never had a trip but I turn them on individually. I've never had a DE machine though. If you want to turn them all on together then yes, you are going to have to seriously over design the circuits so that's asking for trouble.

I'd say you could comfortably design it with 6 or 7 machines per 32a ring.
 
The guy I'm using is really good - he's just not sure of the type of power these things draw to plan the circuits....
 
Data East machines are more likely to trip rcbs on start up. That doesn't mean it is taking 16Amps plus on start up. Could be resididual current returning via the Neutral.
Still think you need a better Electrician.....
 
IMO
i would base it on 2.5amps for safety per pin
Even modern Sterns have a chance to trip a 16A c/b on initial power up - never had it happen with a 32a
Machines need to be turned on one at a time.If the filters are on the way out it can cause more current
I would run a 32a circuits in - not 16a . As said 12 or so on one ring some older games run a bit less
 
I agree with a lot of the answers but I think the problem being asked is with switching them all on at once, there will be a surge of current as there is when several electric motors all start at the same time. Unfortunately the solution is not simple and as I mentioned before you would have to start a bank of machines maybe ten at a time in sequence. Because your electrician has already queried this I would not doubt his expertise. If we are talking switching on a hundred machines all at once then I would say no cannot do. This is going to involve a lot of cabling and my advice is not ring mains but radial circuits with 3 or 4 machines per circuit also I think the new circuits will have to be controlled with RCDBO's to comply with the new regs. Let me know what your electrician comes up with. Dave.
 
Just thought of something to determine the start up load per machine. Ask your sparks if he has a clamp meter, this can be used to see the current draw on a cable and you could add one machine on at a time and to see what current is being used and then switch all on at once to see the total start current, this is better than a test meter as meter would not like a heavy load.
 
David Stephens said:
Just thought of something to determine the start up load per machine. Ask your sparks if he has a clamp meter, this can be used to see the current draw on a cable and you could add one machine on at a time and to see what current is being used and then switch all on at once to see the total start current, this is better than a test meter as meter would not like a heavy load.
Click to expand...



I doubt a clamp meter would react quick enough to see the very short lived surge
 
If I was you I'd be looking at 4 circuits at 32A each.

Cheers,
Neil.
 
I am not an electrician. I have been involved in a number of rewiring exercises in recent years so have seen electricians in action.

A 6mm cable can run a 9.5kw shower !!! That is about 40 amps. Based on my amateur testing, pinballs use about 1.7 amps each

A separate supply for each machine is crazy.

Seriously, fire your electrician. This guy is out of his depth and running for cover. A poor electrician will see a five amp fuse, and go off that. A proper electrician will recognise that pinballs actually use about 1.7 amps.

See my post in this thread, the one mentioned above.

http://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/electrical-circuits-in-man-cave.36405/

Part of an electrician's job is to give advice. You need to have confidence in that advice. I would have no confidence in this guy. You could spend a fortune working with a risk averse, terrified electrician forcing you to spend your money easing his unnecessary fears.

With a three phase supply, you have a SERIOUS amount of capacity. Much, much, much more than a domestic supply.

What I have found causes trouble is when a game fires the knocker on start up, like my Banzai Run. Or when you fire several up at the same time. I generally think it is bad practice to turn electrical items on simultaneously due to the spikes.

My suggestions
  1. Turn them on one at a time
  2. Get type C or D breakers. These are designed for commercial environments using inductive loads, which is what you have got
  3. 4 to 6 x 32a ring mains sounds right to me
There is no problem with you having lots of ring main circuits. 32a ring mains use 2.5 mm cable. This is a commodity that you buy by the drum. In contrast, you buy 6 mm cable by the meter as it is so expensive. 6mm is much more time consuming to work with, to cut, to bend, to strip, to put into devices ....

The cost differential between 4 and 6 ring main circuits is immaterial in the context of what you are doing. You will use about the same amount of cabling. You are just looking at a couple of extra breakers. Breakers are the cheap way of doing this at about £4 each. Most folk would use these, the problem is that several breakers usually sit under one rcd. A domestic fuse box probably has two rcds covering about 8 breakers each. When a bulb pops or the toaster goes nuts, it therefore takes down one of the rcd's and therefore half of the circuits in your house. I got sick of this, so all the circuits in my house are now on individual rcbo's. In a commercial environment a better way is to use rcbo's, these cost about £20 to £30 each. use of rcbo's means that if one circuit fails it does not take your whole fuse board down, upsetting all your customers. If you had 6 ring mains on 6 rcbo's and a machine took its ring main down, your other 5 ring mains would be unaffected
 
Thank you all for an amazing array of suggestions which I have passed onto my electrician. He's really good to be fair, and has always been sensible with prices, etc. I may have worried him when I told him data east machines were tripping a 16a breaker on startup - which started up some questioning of initial startup power of pins. Extra confusion arose when I said I was hoping to switch many games on at once.

This is the first room to be wired, so other rooms would also require a similar set up. This could lead to many machines needing to be switched on one by one, which is quite time consuming (but perhaps the only way!)
 
Just checked mine, only 1 ring main, but 18 pins, 2 sega twins, 2 mame, 2 xbox's and screens... doesnt trip:oops:
 
SWL has between 10 and 12 machines on the one ring, not sure if it's 16A or 32A CB. Pins are not the problem generally, it's when you load it with other things like a 2KW heater and 800W microwave... :rolleyes: So we now know that the circuit trips when it reaches 3.5KW..!

Jamie, the DE machine probably has a blown bulb or dodgy bulb holder that is in a really awkward position to get at (say under a ramp or two) so it's never been repaired or replaced. It's unlikely to be drawing a full 16A as I believe that would take the mains fuse in the plug first (unless someone has used a screw instead of a fuse), more a case of it causing an earthing trip on the CB caused by the CB sensing differences and tripping to protect as designed to do.
 
I have done tests on my one pinball I have "Star Wars trilogy" it pulls an average 140watts and can spike 230watts at times when u hit a super jackpot ect...
 
DRD said:
I am not an electrician. I have been involved in a number of rewiring exercises in recent years so have seen electricians in action.

A 6mm cable can run a 9.5kw shower !!! That is about 40 amps. Based on my amateur testing, pinballs use about 1.7 amps each

A separate supply for each machine is crazy.

Seriously, fire your electrician. This guy is out of his depth and running for cover. A poor electrician will see a five amp fuse, and go off that. A proper electrician will recognise that pinballs actually use about 1.7 amps.

See my post in this thread, the one mentioned above.

http://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/electrical-circuits-in-man-cave.36405/

Part of an electrician's job is to give advice. You need to have confidence in that advice. I would have no confidence in this guy. You could spend a fortune working with a risk averse, terrified electrician forcing you to spend your money easing his unnecessary fears.

With a three phase supply, you have a SERIOUS amount of capacity. Much, much, much more than a domestic supply.

What I have found causes trouble is when a game fires the knocker on start up, like my Banzai Run. Or when you fire several up at the same time. I generally think it is bad practice to turn electrical items on simultaneously due to the spikes.

My suggestions
  1. Turn them on one at a time
  2. Get type C or D breakers. These are designed for commercial environments using inductive loads, which is what you have got
  3. 4 to 6 x 32a ring mains sounds right to me
There is no problem with you having lots of ring main circuits. 32a ring mains use 2.5 mm cable. This is a commodity that you buy by the drum. In contrast, you buy 6 mm cable by the meter as it is so expensive. 6mm is much more time consuming to work with, to cut, to bend, to strip, to put into devices ....

The cost differential between 4 and 6 ring main circuits is immaterial in the context of what you are doing. You will use about the same amount of cabling. You are just looking at a couple of extra breakers. Breakers are the cheap way of doing this at about £4 each. Most folk would use these, the problem is that several breakers usually sit under one rcd. A domestic fuse box probably has two rcds covering about 8 breakers each. When a bulb pops or the toaster goes nuts, it therefore takes down one of the rcd's and therefore half of the circuits in your house. I got sick of this, so all the circuits in my house are now on individual rcbo's. In a commercial environment a better way is to use rcbo's, these cost about £20 to £30 each. use of rcbo's means that if one circuit fails it does not take your whole fuse board down, upsetting all your customers. If you had 6 ring mains on 6 rcbo's and a machine took its ring main down, your other 5 ring mains would be unaffected
Click to expand...







ya can only use 6mm on that kinda load dependant on the length of the cable
 
Muppetkiller said:
I have done tests on my one pinball I have "Star Wars trilogy" it pulls an average 140watts and can spike 230watts at times when u hit a super jackpot ect...
Click to expand...



that really dont sound right mate 1a only peak?From my experience being involved art many shows, It seems,imo the device ain't reading right
 
Poibug said:
that really dont sound right mate 1a only peak?From my experience being involved art many shows, It seems,imo the device ain't reading right
Click to expand...

What I'm using is this I will try and link it

http://m.ebay.com/itm/Power-Consump...or-Usage-Plug-In-Electricity-US-/282362344658

I use the Euro version.
I can use it on anything from kettle/power washer/pinball ect. And it displays on what my appliance is using at that giving moment.

Hope it's giving me the right figures
 
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