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Planning first pin... final phase

Sako-TRG said:
Yes, that’s for sure, fair comment 👍
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I’d be interested to hear from anyone that’s ever tried to use a pinball warranty. I mean usually diagnosis means a bit of guesswork and trial and error......which isn’t good for business. I’d imagine they’d just offer to buy the machine back for £1500 less (which is the usual markup).
 
Rob zombie said:
I’d be interested to hear from anyone that’s ever tried to use a pinball warranty. I mean usually diagnosis means a bit of guesswork and trial and error......which isn’t good for business. I’d imagine they’d just offer to buy the machine back for £1500 less (which is the usual markup).
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It's definitely as you said Rob. Parts are mailed and "fix it yourself". Not what I expected, but that is the case.
So warranty really only good if a part fails, like a node board.
 
Yeah noticed some of the new Sterns are a few hundred or so quid more than other sellers but if you haven’t got a clue and they come out thats good peace of mind for 2 years.
But generally they are high on price!
 
daveyp said:
If I payed £40k for a Beatles Platinum I’d want a engineer to come and fix it lol.


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I think you would need an engineer to come and fix it. IQ level would have to be low to fork that amount of cash for a lick of paint😃
 
Rob zombie said:
Two things. Firstly, you don’t need a flipping warranty. A warranty is completely worthless especially since they’ll just mail you the parts for you to fix and solder in yourself. So you’d better prepare yourself for hands on maintenance. Secondly, if you’re buying a pinball machine on finance then you need to have a long and serious think about why that’s a really bad way to manage your finances. It’s crazy. Buy something you can afford (as if that should even need to be said?!). When I started out I had a pool table and bought a Cue Ball Wizard as it matched the theme of the room. I’ve always regretted selling that machine (to HLD funnily enough). Price does not equal enjoyment. I’ve had £6k machines and £800 machines and to be honest, I get more enjoyment from the lower priced ones.
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Thanks for sharing your views on warranty as this is one thing that I wanted clarity on but seems as though others have different views. With regards to financing high value items, I think that as long as you can afford the payments and have equity in them theres nothing stupid about it. That's my personal opinion any way.
 
Avoid HLD and Liberty. We get guys on here who massively overpaid for games from dealers. Remember that the games sold by dealers were quite possibly previously sold by one of us on here.

New in Box pinball machines can give you a huge headache - initial setting up, fettling, adjusting, incomplete code, design faults, wet clearcoat …. then you get depreciation on top

If you buy a game from a good and knowledgeable seller that has properly maintained it, even if it is 30 years old, it could well be will be as reliable as a brand new game

In your shoes, I would be tempted at either:

1. a SAM era dot matrix display home use only Stern (like ACDC, Iron Man, Tron …) These games are generally very reliable and should have had any niggles sorted by their former owners

2. a 1990s Bally Williams game like Addams Family. Addams Family is the benchmark pinball machine and has been for 30 years. Widely bought and sold. Remarkably popular to this day with kids and adults alike. Good parts availability. Sensible design from an ongoing maintenance perspective. I have had one for over 20 years and in all that time it has only needed a fuse and a cheap plastic link

Having bought a NIB JJP Dialed-in, something that gave me profoundly more hassle than my Addams Family, I do not trust the latest generation of pinball machines. Noone knows how long they will last. Modern circuit boards are designed to be thrown away rather than repaired - a very costly business. The brand new games are noting like as rigorously designed or tested as the 90s games. The 90s games were workhorses. Designed to get hammered in arcades. Produced in much larger volumes than now, with much more competition between the manufacturers.

MM, MB ,TAF , AFM are all good choices

A scared stiff would be a bit cheaper and would also make a good choice as it is very accessible for games room guests to play.

TZ, RS are heavy widebodies riddled with toys that have a tendency to go wrong. TZ is so similar to TAF in so many ways, and TAF is a lot easier to live with. RS has annoying music and call outs that get old very quickly IMHO

CTFBL has some parts that are very difficult to obtain - especially the troublesome hologram which ages and fails over time. This was always a deal breaker for me
 
DRD said:
Avoid HLD and Liberty. We get guys on here who massively overpaid for games from dealers. Remember that the games sold by dealers were quite possibly previously sold by one of us on here.

New in Box pinball machines can give you a huge headache - initial setting up, fettling, adjusting, incomplete code, design faults, wet clearcoat …. then you get depreciation on top

If you buy a game from a good and knowledgeable seller that has properly maintained it, even if it is 30 years old, it could well be will be as reliable as a brand new game

In your shoes, I would be tempted at either:

1. a SAM era dot matrix display home use only Stern (like ACDC, Iron Man, Tron …) These games are generally very reliable and should have had any niggles sorted by their former owners

2. a 1990s Bally Williams game like Addams Family. Addams Family is the benchmark pinball machine and has been for 30 years. Widely bought and sold. Remarkably popular to this day with kids and adults alike. Good parts availability. Sensible design from an ongoing maintenance perspective. I have had one for over 20 years and in all that time it has only needed a fuse and a cheap plastic link

Having bought a NIB JJP Dialed-in, something that gave me profoundly more hassle than my Addams Family, I do not trust the latest generation of pinball machines. Noone knows how long they will last. Modern circuit boards are designed to be thrown away rather than repaired - a very costly business. The brand new games are noting like as rigorously designed or tested as the 90s games. The 90s games were workhorses. Designed to get hammered in arcades. Produced in much larger volumes than now, with much more competition between the manufacturers.

MM, MB ,TAF , AFM are all good choices

A scared stiff would be a bit cheaper and would also make a good choice as it is very accessible for games room guests to play.

TZ, RS are heavy widebodies riddled with toys that have a tendency to go wrong. TZ is so similar to TAF in so many ways, and TAF is a lot easier to live with. RS has annoying music and call outs that get old very quickly IMHO

CTFBL has some parts that are very difficult to obtain - especially the troublesome hologram which ages and fails over time. This was always a deal breaker for me
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Thanks so much for your comments, very helpful and logical. I kind of knew that newer machines weren't built to the same standards as those from the 90's and that their value doesn't hold as well but interesting to know about replacement parts and your own experience with both new and old machines. I am definitely going to avoid HLD & Liberty as their prices seem extortionate on used machines.

You've given me a lot to think about, I knew this wasn't going to be easy! 🤔
 
If you must buy a new machine then Pinball Heaven is your only sensible choice. You already know how sensible I think going into debt for a pinball machine is, so not going to take the food off Phil’s plate. My NIB TWD has been 100% trouble free since it came out of the box. If I needed to sell it tomorrow because there was something crazy like a worldwide pandemic and subsequent crash of the economy then I’ve lost probably £2000 on that purchase. But luckily the economic downturn hasn’t affected me apart from giving me even more work to do and less time to play pinball. If you think your earnings are guaranteed for the next few years then go for it, absolutely. But it’s only a pinball machine. Problem with buying new of course is that you won’t have played it before and it might not gel with you. Or need several code updates before it becomes a decent game. Buying new isn’t safer territory than buying a classic. At all.
 
Rob zombie said:
If you must buy a new machine then Pinball Heaven is your only sensible choice. You already know how sensible I think going into debt for a pinball machine is, so not going to take the food off Phil’s plate. My NIB TWD has been 100% trouble free since it came out of the box. If I needed to sell it tomorrow because there was something crazy like a worldwide pandemic and subsequent crash of the economy then I’ve lost probably £2000 on that purchase. But luckily the economic downturn hasn’t affected me apart from giving me even more work to do and less time to play pinball. If you think your earnings are guaranteed for the next few years then go for it, absolutely. But it’s only a pinball machine. Problem with buying new of course is that you won’t have played it before and it might not gel with you. Or need several code updates before it becomes a decent game. Buying new isn’t safer territory than buying a classic. At all.
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I am not going into dept if I partly finance a machine, I've done it on houses, cars, tech & all sorts over the years and always make sure I make ends meet and a healthy savings balance for rainy days/unforeseen expenses. I hear you with regards to NIB machines, being a newb I hadn't considered the need for coding/tweaking new games so I've come to the right place for advice before making any decisions. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, it's much appreciated 😉
 
Serial Thriller said:
I am not going into dept if I partly finance a machine, I've done it on houses, cars, tech & all sorts over the years and always make sure I make ends meet and a healthy savings balance for rainy days/unforeseen expenses. I hear you with regards to NIB machines, being a newb I hadn't considered the need for coding/tweaking new games so I've come to the right place for advice before making any decisions. Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, it's much appreciated 😉
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You are going into debt by at least a grand the minute you open the box. Same as driving a new car out of a showroom.
 
In terms of financial sensibility you’d be better off taking out a low interest loan with someone like Sainsbury’s and buying 4 £2k machines than 1 £8K machine. Those 4 machines will appreciate by around £300 each per year. Whereas your new £8k machine will lose ££££’s
 
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Save your money for now. Buy something for 2k ish, learn how it works and how to do minor repairs, it’s no good having a machine sat there broken that you can’t play wether it costs 1k or 10k. Start at the bottom and work your way up to owning a shiny new game that you’ll be confident you can deal with any issues.
Don’t take out a loan for it unless that’s what you really want. At some point it will need a service of some sort and you’ll be much better equipped if you buy yourself a reasonably priced game to learn on.
 
Has anyone yet explained that pins like to live in social groups.
And as snooker rooms are big, you might like to think of the financial consequences of this!
Ive got 4 recent machines in my snooker room at the moment, but if I was starting again with just the budget of one NIB, there would still be 3 or 4, just older machines.
That said, can’t recommend Phil Palmer at PH highly enough - super after sales, even on a game he didn’t directly supply me (though I had just bought another!)
 
Oops - this turned into a longer post than I expected - but I was in a similar place a few months ago....

I only recently rediscovered pinball in February this year - used to play as a student 30 years ago.
First place I looked was HLD as they come up on Google search, and not knowing much, I was considering a Black Knight 2000, which I later found was very over-priced.

Fortunately, like you, I found this forum before making a purchase, and subsequently was able to visit Flip Out in Croydon for a great afternoon playing on their collection of over 50 machines - old and more recent. Whilst it was fun playing their BK2000, there were other games I liked and came away wondering whether to go for an early 90s machine like AFM, MM, Whitewater, TAF, or a much newer one.

After thinking about it a lot, I came to the conclusion that a newish machine would probably be a good idea as the interest was in playing rather than fixing. I didn't want to go NIB mainly due to the price and associated depreciation. So I ended up making a really good decision - to buy from someone on this forum. The big advantage of doing this is that people on here generally really look after their pins, and if someone comes on here and tries to sell something over-priced, or in bad condition, they are very quickly called out. Same goes for potential scammers. It's not totally risk-free but it's a lot safer than the likes of eBay.

I didn't follow the often mentioned advice of playing the machine before buying as I'd kind of been attracted to a specific machine that there aren't that many around (I think 8 in the country), and ended up with TNA (which was originally released in Sept 2017). I couldn't be happier - the game is brilliant, highly addictive, and in great (like new) condition. In 2 months I've put around 1200 games on it and still love it. Having said that, if you don't get on with a particular pin, there is nothing stopping you moving it on and replacing with another, especially if you bought pre-owned and looked after it, you're not going to lose much money (if any).

Even with a modern pin, there have been a couple of issues which have appeared:
The top flipper stopped working - one of the wires had come adrift, but it was easy to re-solder it (and I hadn't soldered for years).
One LED started lighting up the wrong colour - connector just needed re-seating.
The flipper rubbers needed replacing - I ordered a full set and did the whole machine with Titan glow ones, which also was an opportunity for a good clean as I needed to remove most of the plastics to fit the new rubbers. It was also fun to do.

Cleaning is something you need to do regularly as although the glass prevents general dust, black dust is generated by the flipper coils/solenoids, and bits get worn off the rubbers. Usually good to clean every few hundred games (when a black mark starts to appear in the middle of the most-used lanes).

It's quite nerve wracking opening up the machine for the first time, removing the glass and lifting the playfield, but you very quickly get familiar with it, and I think now I'd definitely consider an older machine, as some maintenance doesn't seem that intimidating any more.

The final thing, I guess, is that you can't have just 1 pin. I was convinced I'd stick with just the one, yet it seems I've just bought my 2nd (co-incidentally from the same guy on here). If/when I can make room for a 3rd, it's likely to be a 90s Williams machine.


Summary:
- If buying NIB, go to Phil at Pinball Heaven
- If buying pre-owned, buy via this forum
- Modern machines can need fixing, as well as older ones, but it's not as daunting as it seems
- All machines need cleaning regularly
- You WILL end up with more than 1 pin
- You can change pins for very little loss (especially if not bought NIB).

Good luck. :thumbs:
 
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It all depends what games tickle your fancy. For me I grew up playing 90s pins so much prefer those to modern games... Sterns don't impress me at all so NIB is a route I've never considered. I've owned 20 machines so far in the 4 or so years I've been in this insane hobby and they've come from various places including friends, eBay, the forum and random people messaging me on facebook offering me games they've found in sheds etc.

I've been stitched up on eBay before and also by someone on this forum which was annoying at the time but both pins worked out okay in the end. The point I'm trying to make is you just need to be savvy and do your research on the type of games you enjoy. There's no point getting yourself into debt just to buy a NIB that sounds absolutely insane to me. You've be far better off just getting a restored low rage Bally/Williams (or hell, even a gottlieb) that shouldn't require too much maintanece. Or do what I did and start of with a £250 EM that's totally non-working and throw yourself into the deep end and slowly build up your knowledge, the only way you will learn to fix things is to get first hand experience doing it, after a while it won't be so scary
 
C&C said:
Oops - this turned into a longer post than I expected - but I was in a similar place a few months ago....

I only recently rediscovered pinball in February this year - used to play as a student 30 years ago.
First place I looked was HLD as they come up on Google search, and not knowing much, I was considering a Black Knight 2000, which I later found was very over-priced.

Fortunately, like you, I found this forum before making a purchase, and subsequently was able to visit Flip Out in Croydon for a great afternoon playing on their collection of over 50 machines - old and more recent. Whilst it was fun playing their BK2000, there were other games I liked and came away wondering whether to go for an early 90s machine like AFM, MM, Whitewater, TAF, or a much newer one.

After thinking about it a lot, I came to the conclusion that a newish machine would probably be a good idea as the interest was in playing rather than fixing. I didn't want to go NIB mainly due to the price and associated depreciation. So I ended up making a really good decision - to buy from someone on this forum. The big advantage of doing this is that people on here generally really look after their pins, and if someone comes on here and tries to sell something over-priced, or in bad condition, they are very quickly called out. Same goes for potential scammers. It's not totally risk-free but it's a lot safer than the likes of eBay.

I didn't follow the often mentioned advice of playing the machine before buying as I'd kind of been attracted to a specific machine that there aren't that many around (I think 8 in the country), and ended up with TNA (which was originally released in Sept 2017). I couldn't be happier - the game is brilliant, highly addictive, and in great (like new) condition. In 2 months I've put around 1200 games on it and still love it. Having said that, if you don't get on with a particular pin, there is nothing stopping you moving it on and replacing with another, especially if you bought pre-owned and looked after it, you're not going to lose much money (if any).

Even with a modern pin, there have been a couple of issues which have appeared:
The top flipper stopped working - one of the wires had come adrift, but it was easy to re-solder it (and I hadn't soldered for years).
One LED started lighting up the wrong colour - connector just needed re-seating.
The flipper rubbers needed replacing - I ordered a full set and did the whole machine with Titan glow ones, which also was an opportunity for a good clean as I needed to remove most of the plastics to fit the new rubbers. It was also fun to do.

Cleaning is something you need to do regularly as although the glass prevents general dust, black dust is generated by the flipper coils/solenoids, and bits get worn off the rubbers. Usually good to clean every few hundred games (when a black mark starts to appear in the middle of the most-used lanes).

It's quite nerve wracking opening up the machine for the first time, removing the glass and lifting the playfield, but you very quickly get familiar with it, and I think now I'd definitely consider an older machine, as some maintenance doesn't seem that intimidating any more.

The final thing, I guess, is that you can't have just 1 pin. I was convinced I'd stick with just the one, yet it seems I've just bought my 2nd (co-incidentally from the same guy on here). If/when I can make room for a 3rd, it's likely to be a 90s Williams machine.


Summary:
- If buying NIB, go to Phil at Pinball Heaven
- If buying pre-owned, buy via this forum
- Modern machines can need fixing, as well as older ones, but it's not as daunting as it seems
- All machines need cleaning regularly
- You WILL end up with more than 1 pin
- You can change pins for very little loss (especially if not bought NIB).

Good luck. :thumbs:
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Thanks for sharing your experience of buying your first pin and the knowledge that you gained along the way, it's much appreciated.

I think that I will definitely consider purchasing a used 90's Williams/bally machine as I am not overly interested in the majority of machines released in the last 20 years bar from the CGC remakes, stern JP & Elvira HOH which are all very pricey.

I too need to really have a play on a load of machines like you did as my wanted list is short for the reason that I've only experienced a handful of machines. Hopefully once the lockdown is over I will be able to make a trip somewhere.

I am hoping you're wrong that I will end up with multiple pins but you're probably right.

Thanks again 😉
 
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MajesticPinball said:
It all depends what games tickle your fancy. For me I grew up playing 90s pins so much prefer those to modern games... Sterns don't impress me at all so NIB is a route I've never considered. I've owned 20 machines so far in the 4 or so years I've been in this insane hobby and they've come from various places including friends, eBay, the forum and random people messaging me on facebook offering me games they've found in sheds etc.

I've been stitched up on eBay before and also by someone on this forum which was annoying at the time but both pins worked out okay in the end. The point I'm trying to make is you just need to be savvy and do your research on the type of games you enjoy. There's no point getting yourself into debt just to buy a NIB that sounds absolutely insane to me. You've be far better off just getting a restored low rage Bally/Williams (or hell, even a gottlieb) that shouldn't require too much maintanece. Or do what I did and start of with a £250 EM that's totally non-working and throw yourself into the deep end and slowly build up your knowledge, the only way you will learn to fix things is to get first hand experience doing it, after a while it won't be so scary
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Thanks for sharing your thoughts on my thread, quite a few people have said now about looking at a 90's pin over a NIB and this does make sense. I will just have to dip into some of the other threads on here going into detail on performing repairs and also get on youtube. I have zero confidence at the moment when it comes to fixing machines and never used a soldering kit before.

On the flip side, I never thought I could maintain an aquarium but run a 120 gallon salt water marine tank so there is hope. (They would be in a separate room to pins)
 
Serial Thriller said:
I too need to really have a play on a load of machines like you did as my wanted list is short for the reason that I've only experienced a handful of machines. Hopefully once the lockdown is over I will be able to make a trip somewhere.
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When they re-open, I guess that closest to St Helens would be Arcade Club in Bury, and probably with more variety is Tilt in Birmingham (I think Phil from Pinball Heaven supplies their machines).
 
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