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Pinside Top 100

Marcel

Marcel

Registered
5Years
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
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657
Location
Huddersfield
It seems to me that the top 100 used to have some age old stalwarts in the top 20, games everyone knew and aspired to get hold of. These titans held strong for yonks and moved through the ranks with the pace of a glacier.
Nowadays, it's like roulette. Maybe it's my age and thinks are speeding up in life, but it seems only recently that Dialled In was all the rage, now sitting in a lowly 39th like a plain vanilla. And it's close neighbours WOZ, AIQ, GB, Spider Man & TWD also sitting in the late 30's.

What's going on, there's some big names getting pushed about, how long before MM gets turfed out of top 10, after all TAF is now 22nd like there's no rush to bother with it.

My current wish list pin EHOH having already been booted down to 7th and I'll bet no.1 GZ won't be in the top 5 by May.

Games used to have to really work to earn the top 10 spots.

Sure there's a ton of games being manufactured now and that's gotta have an affect. But current rankings can't be a fair reflection of the playability rankings can it, is it just everyone spending 5 figures logging in and pumping their own games up. The millennial way..
Perhaps Stern have a bot, doing some clever AI ratings on their behalf. They're certainly holding some great rankings atm.

I've not played Foo Fighters, perhaps it's a gem, but already at 9th place, only released last year, it's rising quickly, but it'll happen fall just the same way.

My gripe is, I'm just not sure I trust the rankings as much as I used to. 😕
 
I do not care about anyone's 'top 100'
A line-up of new sterns leaves me cold

Most other pinball guys I know tend not to have the latest games. a room full of EMs, a collection of Zaccaria's, EM arcade games

Pinball peaked in 1992
 
There are now four serious pinball manufacturers (Stern, JJP, Spooky, CGC) producing at least one game a year, with others (American Pinball, Dutch Pinball, and Pinball Brothers) also producing desirable titles.

I’ve just been to a trade conference where there were five new pins and the Elwin Stern was, by some consensus, the worst thing there (well, maybe not…)

All these companies are producing new designs by older designers, and retro-style machines with new technology. The rules on some of these pins - for better or for worse - are equivalent to video games. As such, why would you expect TAF (which was innovative in its time because of the complex mode-based gameplay) to be in the top 10? Most modern pins have complex mode-based gameplay.

Based on board game top 100s, the way it works is that everyone gets FOMO on the ‘new hotness’ and they shoot into the Top 5. After they’ve been more widely played, people who don’t own them get to play, the hype wears off, and they settle into approximately the ranking they deserve. There’s now a fair bit of location play in the States so people are, indeed, ranking pins on playability. Even here in London, most big retro entertainment venues have a couple of Stern Pros.

If you don’t have nostalgia goggles on, Godzilla is just that good. AFM and MM are better (in my opinion) than Brian Eddy’s latest work with Stern, but there’s a reason Stranger Things is desirable - modern tech, same layout. Unless Brian Eddy moves on from Stern, he’s unlikely - IMO - to produce something with the lasting charm of AFM/MM as Stern cheap out too much. I think Stern have now peaked, to be honest, but they may surprise me, especially with new designers coming onboard like Jack Danger.
 
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You say that vee but MM is still up there too consistently
And coding is now at a stage where its what gives a game longevity
I had a hobbit which I just couldn't get on with it was a mech fest
That doesn't mean it is a great game
Yes it helps that these machines have bells n whistles in them
And great if you can,have both but I would take a well coded pin great layout with a ruleset
To match over any bashtoy
Bond was threadbare at first but now turned out to be a much better package through updates
Gz could be the pinnacle of pinball and a hard pin to beat all round
 
Chaggers said:
I would take a well coded pin great layout with a ruleset
To match over any bashtoy
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But that's not the same for everyone mate, which would explain the disparity in the rankings.

I would definitely put fun, humour and toys ahead of complex code when picking a machine.

I have kept 1 game with a good code (BM66). The rest don't last because it generally means long game and unachievable goals. I'd play Eight Ball Deluxe, Fish Tales or AFM before most modern games. I'm the opposite to yourself . . . give me the bash toy on Champion Pub ahead of a more bulked out code.

So I think the pinside top 100 is just an aggregated sore of different opinions. So as a guide it's not really reflected in the individual's thoughts and preferences.
 
Top 100 is very similar to pop charts, as Paul Simon wrote “every generation sends a hero up the pop charts “

Any game stern makes will get a better ranking at first because lots of eager buyers need to justify the huge wonga they have just payed out in their own minds.
But after a couple of years reality creeps in.

All good fun though
 
Yes totally getting that Chris there's a place for everything
I have a BOP and if want a quick fix it's go to pin pretty standard rule set but fun
It wouldnt last if was only pin though there's just not enough on it
Jjp have made some packed out pins and not many feature up there on the list
And as people's skill levels change so does their outlook and views on pinball machines
Personally I struggled early on with likes of jp2 and even elvira but once dialled
In to shots through practice they become achievable to a certain degree and make me a better player
Is this not the start of evolving through I/C and downloadable content
And try attract a younger audience too the way they are now designing them
I'm particularly talking about stern btw
In like you as only been in the hobby for couple yrs there's so many I want to
Experience and space and money was no object then all would stay
 
Chaggers said:
Yes totally getting that Chris there's a place for everything
I have a BOP and if want a quick fix it's go to pin pretty standard rule set but fun
It wouldnt last if was only pin though there's just not enough on it
Jjp have made some packed out pins and not many feature up there on the list
And as people's skill levels change so does their outlook and views on pinball machines
Personally I struggled early on with likes of jp2 and even elvira but once dialled
In to shots through practice they become achievable to a certain degree and make me a better player
Is this not the start of evolving through I/C and downloadable content
And try attract a younger audience too the way they are now designing them
I'm particularly talking about stern btw
In like you as only been in the hobby for couple yrs there's so many I want to
Experience and space and money was no object then all would stay
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I think the thing with Elvira is that is has something for everyone. Lots of toys, lots of humour, decent shots, engaging theme and a Lyman code so it probably appeals to a lot of people voting on pinside.

I do hope for Sterns sake they haven't peaked with Godzilla.

Great point about JJP's . . . hardly any on the list. If they get their next theme right and it shoots like Elton, I'm sure they'll have one in the list.
 
The top 100 on Pinside is largely volume based on sales, it's a way for people to vote up their own games and justify owning them and make them desirable when selling, There are games that deserve to be there, just as many that are 'shills'.
 
Gonzo said:
I do hope for Sterns sake they haven't peaked with Godzilla.
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So do I, but I was underwhelmed by Jaws. It felt like Elwin (and the team) had been told to cut corners (a lot of corners) by the private equity firm who I now understand run Stern since Gary retired.

The ball-eating shark mech is a good example - there are loads of examples of good pins with animals/objects that eat the ball. It feels like a pathetic excuse to cut costs on mechs to focus on layout and, ultimately, much as I like Stern Star Wars and Trek, there are only so many things you can do with layout alone.

Gonzo said:
Great point about JJP's . . . hardly any on the list. If they get their next theme right and it shoots like Elton, I'm sure they'll have one in the list.
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I’m personally tempted by JJP Elton John. It’s so rare that there’s a music pin that *isn’t* heavy metal (which I think sounds exactly like someone moving a heavy metal lawnmower across their patio). If you don’t like heavy metal, you’re pretty much restricted to Rush, The Beatles and Elton John.

There’s obviously a view that pinball players only like certain musical genres. Cary Hardy was like, ’oh well, it‘ll do great on location because people love Elton John, but no one would want to buy it’. I was a bit baffled because musical taste is a pretty individual thing. Do pinball buyers REALLY only like heavy metal? Is that the ONLY music that can accompany a pin?




I just find the whole thing baffling. It’s not even like I have restricted musical tastes. I’ve got about 830 songs downloaded onto my phone, and they range from American Trad Rock right through to Rap, Jazz, Pop, Latin and Bollywood. The only thing I *don’t* own is heavy metal. Given the range of music genres out there, surely a pinball manufacturer could manage to make something that doesn’t make me want to pull my ears off, without attracting a chorus of ‘oh, no one wants to buy that’…
 
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Personal taste aside there is huge bias as well that has nothing to do with any of the specific questions that are being asked in the rating of a game.

Why are LE's consistently outscoring Premiums? They usually play exactly the same. Why the higher score? Is the LE a better game? Is the artwork "better". No, it is just "different" rare and collectible. People want to justify and continue to feel good about purchases already made. The more you spend, the more you have the urge to justify the additional expense. In other words the higher rating comes from factors that are technically not even part of the review.

Premiums vs Pro, yes they usually play different, but how different? Take Foo Fighters as an example. LE rated position 10, Pro position 25. Is the upper playfield worth 15 positions on a Top 100 ranking? Probably not. Same argument here.

Something that I own vs previously owned vs desire. I would say the only one of the the three options that would receive a reasonably unbiased review is the "previously owned". A game that I no longer have to justify to myself or others why I purchased, but rather the ability to point to specific reasons why it left the collection.

The pinside top 100 maybe provides a service that can separate the very good from the very bad, but not with any greater resolution than that.

What Gonzo is currently doing with his own Top 50 bears much more weight in my mind since most of the factors that bring bias (not taste) to the equation are gone. They are all games that have resided in his home, most of them are already gone, he spends significant time on qualifying his opinions. You may not agree with his tastes (I certainly don't in many cases), but there is still much information there that is valuable.
 
VeeMonroe said:
So do I, but I was underwhelmed by Jaws. It felt like Elwin (and the team) had been told to cut corners (a lot of corners) by the private equity firm who I now understand run Stern since Gary retired.

The ball-eating shark mech is a good example - there are loads of examples of good pins with animals/objects that eat the ball. It feels like a pathetic excuse to cut costs on mechs to focus on layout and, ultimately, much as I like Stern Star Wars and Trek, there are only so many things you can do with layout alone.


I’m personally tempted by JJP Elton John. It’s so rare that there’s a music pin that *isn’t* heavy metal (which I think sounds exactly like someone moving a heavy metal lawnmower across their patio). If you don’t like heavy metal, you’re pretty much restricted to Rush, The Beatles and Elton John.

There’s obviously a view that pinball players only like certain musical genres. Cary Hardy was like, ’oh well, it‘ll do great on location because people love Elton John, but no one would want to buy it’. I was a bit baffled because musical taste is a pretty individual thing. Do pinball buyers REALLY only like heavy metal? Is that the ONLY music that can accompany a pin?




I just find the whole thing baffling. It’s not even like I have restricted musical tastes. I’ve got about 830 songs downloaded onto my phone, and they range from American Trad Rock right through to Rap, Jazz, Pop, Latin and Bollywood. The only thing I *don’t* own is heavy metal. Given the range of music genres out there, surely a pinball manufacturer could manage to make something that doesn’t make me want to pull my ears off, without attracting a chorus of ‘oh, no one wants to buy that’…
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The lack of understanding that personal tastes differ is baffling. . . I've never got it.

People like different foods, different music, different TV shows and different pinball machines.

It's a hell of an assumption to state with certainty that people won't like the theme of a game.

If one tries to transfer their opinions, views and tastes onto a third party it ain't gonna work.

Music wise . . I like classic rock, country music, Irish folk, 80's Hip Hop, indie and Massive Attack . . . Ideally on vinyl on an 80's stack system 🤣
 
Bikerjoy said:
Is the LE a better game? Is the artwork "better". No
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I agree with the rest of your post, but objectively the cabinet artwork is better on some of the LE compared to prem. Of course that shouldn't make a big difference to the overall rating.
 
Bikerjoy said:
Personal taste aside there is huge bias as well that has nothing to do with any of the specific questions that are being asked in the rating of a game.

Why are LE's consistently outscoring Premiums? They usually play exactly the same. Why the higher score? Is the LE a better game? Is the artwork "better". No, it is just "different" rare and collectible. People want to justify and continue to feel good about purchases already made. The more you spend, the more you have the urge to justify the additional expense. In other words the higher rating comes from factors that are technically not even part of the review.
Click to expand...

It's literally the way the Pinside rating system works. You don't give the pin a score out of 10, you have to rate it on a bunch of different categories. You can change the weighings, but the default is to weight aspects of the artwork on par with the gameplay. Thus, if you have two pins that play identical, but one comes with powder coating and a mirrored backglass, the LE is going to automatically rank higher than the Prem.

I've tried changing the ratings, but it won't let you drop the weighings on artwork to x1 or x0, and ranking all aspects is compulsory. So, pins like TWD, where I'm not a super-big fan of the artwork, end up with lower ratings from me than I think they deserve (I could mess with the rankings to form my top 20, I suppose) 🤷‍♂️
 
VeeMonroe said:
It's literally the way the Pinside rating system works. You don't give the pin a score out of 10, you have to rate it on a bunch of different categories. You can change the weighings, but the default is to weight aspects of the artwork on par with the gameplay. Thus, if you have two pins that play identical, but one comes with powder coating and a mirrored backglass, the LE is going to automatically rank higher than the Prem.

I've tried changing the ratings, but it won't let you drop the weighings on artwork to x1 or x0, and ranking all aspects is compulsory. So, pins like TWD, where I'm not a super-big fan of the artwork, end up with lower ratings from me than I think they deserve (I could mess with the rankings to form my top 20, I suppose) 🤷‍♂️
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If I'm thinking of buying games I've never played based on ratings I focus mostly on gameplay rating for this reason
 
VeeMonroe said:
The ball-eating shark mech is a good example - there are loads of examples of good pins with animals/objects that eat the ball. It feels like a pathetic excuse to cut costs on mechs to focus on layout and, ultimately, much as I like Stern Star Wars and Trek, there are only so many things you can do with layout alone.
Click to expand...

So do you think when they say they tried shark eating ball mechs and they weren't happy with it and it wasn't fun, that is a lie?

If I think about a shark mech eating a ball I can't imagine it being any good past the initial novelty.
 
David_Vi said:
So do you think when they say they tried shark eating ball mechs and they weren't happy with it and it wasn't fun, that is a lie?

If I think about a shark mech eating a ball I can't imagine it being any good past the initial novelty.
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Yes, I kinda do. I think it's a half-truth rather than a total lie. Initially, I thought it was Keith Elwin not wanting to either make a standard fan layout with a huge bash toy in the centre, or remaking his iconic T-Rex from JP2.

Then, I realised just how many pins have a ball-catching mech that doesn't take up huge amounts of the playfield. The snake in Metallica, for example, or the ball-eating T-Rex from the original JP. You could even do something like the Electric Magic Spinner in Led Zeppelin, with a shark that rises out of the playfield, locks a ball, and then goes straight back down.

It feels like he had a very tight BOM and release schedule, and he couldn't get the shark working within budget before the pin was scheduled for release. It's the same reason, apparently, that so many superhero movies now have rubbish CGI - there's too much pressure to churn content and no one is willing to pay enough to make it good.
 
I would like to see a sales chart, wonder what it would look like then.
I don’t take any notice of the of top 100 positions but I do like to go through the individual reviews, you get a good take on games with some of the regular reviewers who have done them over the years and have come back and updated etc.
 
VeeMonroe said:
Yes, I kinda do. I think it's a half-truth rather than a total lie. Initially, I thought it was Keith Elwin not wanting to either make a standard fan layout with a huge bash toy in the centre, or remaking his iconic T-Rex from JP2.

Then, I realised just how many pins have a ball-catching mech that doesn't take up huge amounts of the playfield. The snake in Metallica, for example, or the ball-eating T-Rex from the original JP. You could even do something like the Electric Magic Spinner in Led Zeppelin, with a shark that rises out of the playfield, locks a ball, and then goes straight back down
Click to expand...

You could be right, but I genuinely think they couldn't get it to work.

The LZ spinner idea is a cool idea but it takes up a lot of space, (especially if you try put a moving shark mechanism in it) so other aspects of the game would suffer.
There's so many late 80s and early 90s that added big mechs that do impressive things but end up feeling like gimmicks because the rest of the game ends up rubbish.

A t rex type mech would be weird as a shark lives underwater... If you had to hide it it would take up an obscene amount of space. Everything nearby would suffer.

I can't see it without it feeling like a gimmick or shoehorned in.

I think a lot of people want 90s B/W games back, but things have moved on since then.

At the end of the day we're not pinball designers. But you can see the constraints they have to work with when you look under playfields on the older pins.
I'm sure if they really wanted the shark to eat the ball they could do it, but they made a decision to focus on other aspects which are more important
 
Oh c'mon, the shark already goes up and down, it wouldn't have been hard to stick a magnet in its mouth for example.

The full story is more likely "we tried to make the shark eat the ball, but we couldn't make it fun within the cost constraints we are imposed".
 
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Fubar said:
Oh c'mon, the shark already goes up and down already, it wouldn't have been hard to stick a magnet in its mouth for example.

The full story is more likely "we tried to make the shark eat the ball, but we couldn't make it fun within the cost constraints we are imposed".
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True. Like Thing but smaller?
Then it's goto store the ball, or just let go? It all ramps up 😄.

I bet people would still complain that it just grabs the ball
 
Anything can be resolved if the budget is high enough, the difficulty comes when the amount is about 10% of what is needed.
 
Fubar said:
I agree with the rest of your post, but objectively the cabinet artwork is better on some of the LE compared to prem. Of course that shouldn't make a big difference to the overall rating.
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"Objevtively" calling one piece of art better than another is simply not possible! What you are actually saying is "My opinion is....", in other words, subjectively you find some LE artwork better.
 
With bot factories, manufacturers needing to sell games, folk buying NIB without ever playing the things ...

Plenty of fertile ground for shenanigans

Plus with hundreds of back catalogue games- who is gonna be motivated to review all those from 30 to 50 years ago nowadays ? Much easier to go to a show/ arcade etc, focus on the new games and review those
 
Never took a jot of notice on the pinside top 10 although do get the fact GZ is number 1 as IMO it’s the best game ever made with best flow, best mechs and the LE has stunning foil cabinet art.
Oh and IMO the theme for me is just a monster one! pun intended.

However I don’t disagree with some that think it doesn’t deserve to be there! Due to long drawn out games, complicated rules and why did they bother with theme as it’s already been done.
This is how I feel about MM, TAF, CV, TOTAN, TOM and many more. To me they are highly overrated, overpriced and quite frankly do nothing for me.
The beauty is in the eyes of the beholder in pinball and It’s each to there own which is why ots such an awesome hobby.
 
DRD said:
Plus with hundreds of back catalogue games- who is gonna be motivated to review all those from 30 to 50 years ago nowadays ? Much easier to go to a show/ arcade etc, focus on the new games and review those
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I've reviewed 155 pins now. After the lockdowns, I'd only just got into pinball, was just delighted to get out-and-about, and took up the 'hobby' of reviewing every different pin I could find on location within cycling distance of London.

It was a bit like pokemon for pinball - "gotta catch 'em all".

Since I've reviewed a hundred machines, I've had US owners of pins sending me angry DMs about reviews. Once every six months, approx, a different owner of Houdini, in particular, DMs me to rant - it's actually incredible that someone would take the time to do that, but several people have 🤷‍♂️
 
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