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Party Wall Advice

Calimori

Calimori

Staff member
10 Years
Joined
Mar 15, 2012
Messages
4,521
Location
Bedfordshure, UK
Summary: I have a wall between my neighbour and our property that has just been rebuilt and I have paid for a % of the costs to raise the height. I now want to ensure that any legal requirement are covered so that I am allowed to affix things to our side, and similarly there side. The questions is do I need to legally do anything do anything to "declare" the wall is a party wall?

Before I go further, let us get the jokes out of the way so they don't derail the thread:
Wall Party, Party Wall

More Info:
IMG_1530.jpg

The land to the right of the fence use to be part of my property but was sold off in the 70's leaving a driveway outside our land.
To the right (red arrow), there use to be a low wall and a row of conifers, which gave us some protection from people walking over.
The tree's were not looked after, got covered in ivy and died, then fell over.

A pleasant chat with the neighbour led to a plan for a new wall, which I could pay the additional cost to raise to 0.9m to 2m. I would get permission to use our side for whatever we want to do.
At the base of the main wall, you can see a course of red, older brick. This is the boundary and entirely on my neighbours side.
However, the pillar (red arrow), has a brick width on our side.

I want to ensure that I can use that pillar for a gate but also use the main wall to support something like a carport. This will allow us to reduce the fencing on the left side and bring the driveway into the house plot, as it is currently isolated due to how I can't control the dog or kid escaping.

  1. I believe the pillar is automatically a party wall as it is over the boundary (is this assumption correct?)
  2. The wall is entirely on their side, I can find examples of how I ask for permission to work on a party wall, but can't find how I declare the wall is a party wall.
    1. Or is that expliciet once I have permission to do work on it?
    2. I will then affix a bracket and some wood to use the permission
Any advice will be gratefully. I would rather not increase costs for legal advice if this is actually just about asking for permission.
 
It's hard to tell from the picture as it looks like the wall is mid-way between the house end wall. I'm no expert but have done many party wall agreements in the past and never had one for a wall.

That said, most walls split the line and you can do on your side what you will. If the whole wall is on their side you probably don't want to be damaging it. It looks like the pillar (being wider) is on your land and if so you can bolt what you like to it. I have noticed a cable coming out and presume electrical for a light. Going from the previous isn't that cable on their land? Normally wall problems are due to their height as there are specific height restrictions between properties but it's up now.

If it was me, I'd crack on and put your gates, do the lights and live happily ever after. The more you involve the neighbour the trickier it will get.
 
Thanks.
The neighbor put the power and lights in, they also want a number plaque for their house on the front and have agreed to put an arrow pointing to their side for clarity.
Based on the government site: https://www.gov.uk/party-walls-building-works
Boundary walls can be party walls if they are entirely on one person's side, if used by both sides. I guess I am trying to work out what contributes "used". If I had put an electrical cable in to light our side, then that might have satisfied use.
 
Sounds reasonable but the 'party' wall is entirely on their side you couldn't stick a 10 inch bolt through to their side. I would say 'used' means adding privacy and not physical term but probably a grey area.
 
I will write and ask for permission to fit bracket to my side to support a car port. Highlight, that the pillar is partially on my land and I will affix a gate to it.
Any changes would not be visible on her side.
 
The problem with going that route is they might say no and you're stuffed. I wouldn't put anything in writing. If they query it when it's up you can just say 'it's on my side'. Wouldn't overcomplicate things. From experience, once neighbours know they have a bit of power, they tend to exercise it.

Any others views from people on here may day different.
 
Not an expert but having a quick read through the links above to me it reads as you need to give them written notice at least 2 months before you start the work and they need to confirm approval within 14 days in writing, if they dont give written approval then it effectively becomes a dispute. But if you have already agreed in person then there shouldn't be any issue.

It also mentioned the 2 months notification minimum but the neighbour can let you start work earlier, and any written agreement is only valid for 1 year.

With it being a car port it mentions in the handbook about anything that could effect the structural integrity of the wall which a car port would in my opinion, so it is something approval would be required for.

There are example letters in the handbook.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet
 
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Looks like we are all in the same place. Which is you don’t declare a wall is a party wall but follow an approval process on a party wall which is the linked agreement template.

If I ask for permission in writing and get something up, then that makes it a party wall for any future agreements. They can’t take the wall down for example, without then following the same agreements.
 
Notice is not necessary if you already have agreement between both parties.

I spent a lot of money employing a surveyor, at the request of my neighbour, for our party wall agreement. After I had incurred thousand in costs he then said he wanted to use his own surveyor, which we had to pay for, again thousands in costs.

Try the nicely nicely route if you can, it's a lot cheaper (unless you have a cnut of a neighbour like we do).
 
I believe you really need to ask a lawyer as there are some grey areas here.

There is a helpful explanatory booklet here, in particular Section3 which defines what a party wall is: https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...e-party-wall-etc-act-1996-explanatory-booklet

The first grey area is whether or not you have a "party fence wall". If the wall was completely on the neighbour's land then it is not a party fence wall and you likely have no right to do anything to it. But given part of the pillar is on your land that may make the entire wall a party fence wall. And then the next grey area is whether it would become a party wall if you actually built a car port against it (presumably with the neighbour's permission), which would depend on whether or not the car port was classed as a "building".

You are not going to get an answer you can rely on from anybody on here; best to ask a property lawyer how you build what you want to build and not have any issue at some point in the future. The good news is that you seem to be on good terms with the neighbour so getting any formal permissions as needed should be easier and you would probably want him onboard anyway, even if you had the rights to do anything you want.
 
We are agreeing, the main wall is not a party wall, until I use it under some agreement, then it becomes a party wall. If I get that agreement in writing, then I can use that if they dispute later. We have the messages on me paying for materials to raise it to a height where I can use it, so I feel comfortable we are covered for minor attachments and see where it goes.

Legal advice is going to charge me to get the same interpretation, as I am now quite sure the process doesn't require a legal document to be "declared" a party wall.
 
Stuff like this has the potential to take very unpredictable and unpleasant turns 5, 10, 20 years down the line. A neighbour that is fine now might become alcoholic/ lose their marbles, or someone new moves in with different ideas, or a dispute comes out of nowhere over something trivial like parking or a missing parcel Or they die and their kids inherit the place etc etc

There are a lot of malicious people out there who feel empowered by property issues to make their neighbour's lives miserable. My village is full of old houses and I'd guess there are ticking timebombs in a quarter to a half of them. Old deeds, incomplete documentation, poorly defined boundaries, lost paperwork, generalist small town solicitors ....

These bombs don't usually go off, but when they do they can be very serious

Savvy folk know that a change of ownership is the ideal time to cause trouble/ settle old scores/ extract a ransom. If a neighbour opens up a dispute (rightly or wrongly) when you try to sell then it becomes disclosable to potential purchasers and can frustrate your sale/ take months or even years to sort.

In your shoes I would go to a solicitor who specialises in this and who has been recommended to you by a smart friend who understands the difference between a good and a bad one.

Get the whole matter properly documented up front so that you are never exposed to a dispute when you try to sell your property in the future. I would also consider getting the precise location of that boundary documented - not just a line on a plan.

You don't have to declare that you are using a solicitor- perhaps they could work behind the scenes with you fronting it up and printing out standard form documents.
 
there is no such thing as a party wall. it’s a concept not a real wall. you will be fine. hang yer grundies on your side. **** up your side of the wall. get a banksy on it. grow ivy up the thing. whatever.
 
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