Open Competition at Pinfest 2025

[Wayne J]

Details of the Open Competition to be Held at Pinfest this year are as follows (subject to a potential few minor tweaks).

The format will again be a 5 game ticket comp, using the NeverDrains Software.

That is, for a single entry you will play 5 different machines and you're scores will be ranked against all other submitted scores (including your own). The total of those 5 ranks will determine your overall rank.
Registration is £15, which will include a single entry.
Further entries can be bought for £7.50, or 3 for £20.

Qualifying will run for a total of 24 hrs. 10:00-21:00 on Friday and Saturday, with a last chance period of 10:00-12:00 on Sunday.

The top 24 will qualify with the top 8 getting a bye past the first round.

The finals will start at 13:00 on Sunday and will consist of best of 3 knockout with the higher qualifying seed choosing the machine to be played for the first and third games (if required) and the lower seed choosing the machine for the second. Player choosing will play first.
NO machine can be chosen twice by the same player throughout the finals.

When there are just 4 players left, the final will be PAPA style (4,2,10) played over 3 games.
Third highest seed will choose the first machine, second highest the second machine, and highest seed the last machine.

Prize monies will be split as previous years for the top 8 players

 

[Wayne J]

Reserved for trophy pics

 

[Wayne J]

Reserved for full schedule of all comps once finalised

 

[Wayne J]

This year, following lots of feedback from many people last year, the competition will be downstairs. on your immediate left as you enter.

The timings have also been changed slightly for the qualifying, finishing at 9pm on the Friday and Saturday. This will allow people to focus more on the social side of Pinfest, which has been commented on over recent years.

Due to this being the first time we have ventured downstairs, there may be a few tweaks, but we hope to be able to broadcast the twitch stream by @strobey on the large TV on the wall in the bar, allowing for more people to see what's going on without overcrowding downstairs, while enjoying a pint.

As always we are still requiring more donations, for all of the competitions as well as the freeplay areas. Of particular interest for the Open comp is No Fear and Jaws, but all machines will be considered.

 

[Czard]

Hi Wayne, Josh here

Glad to hear that we’ve got a 5 game card back as it was a lot of fun last year, looking forward to it!

I just wanted to query about the format for finals, as at the moment it looks like it won’t get certified as it is currently best of 3 H2H until the final 4.

I think this can become certified by just making the H2H games a best of 5 and you can keep the final 4 as PAPA scoring. If the reason this was done is due to time constraints, an idea could be that as the qualifying time is currently 24 hours, and it only needs to be 20 hours, you could cut the Sunday morning qualifying session and take 2 hours off of the Saturday evening, and you could potentially do the first round or two of the H2H on Saturday evening and still have it finish around 9pm which will leave people some time for socialising.

Also, you could then still avoid any clash with the classics finals on the Sunday by starting the rest of the main finals once the classics has concluded.

Hopefully you can consider this as it would be great to get to certified as we can hopefully keep making Pinfest a hub for casual and competitive players!

 

[Tucks]

Most people don't care about WPPR points

 

[roadshow16]

Lots don't care, but many do care.

So for one of the biggest UK tournaments where pretty much everyone will be there, it would be nice to accommodate both camps if possible.

As Josh said, its only a very small tweak to make it a certified tournament, best of 5 instead of best of 3. All of the hard bits are already catered for (20 hours of qualifying, across multiple days), so it would be great if Wayne would consider moving to best of 5.

For those who do care about the WPPR's it is a pretty significant difference between being certified and not. With the current format Wayne has planned, the winner would get about 60 wpprs based on the same player list as last year. Where as, if it was best of 5 H2H instead of best of 3, it would be about 100 wpprs, similar to last year. We just have very few opportunities in the UK to have tournaments of this size, so it would be awesome for it to work for everyone if possible.

Cheers, Craig

 

[Wayne J]

The Sunday morning qualifying session is there so that it is not just people who can attend on more than one day who can realistically compete. You have the opportunity to attend on the Sunday, qualify, compete in the finals and win it all in one day. (I seem to remember this happening on more than one occasion in the past)
Rather than having to qualify and have the finals on different days, especially as the hotel has long since sold out.

 

[roadshow16]

Fair enough, its definitely not easy striking a balance for sure and I have definitely benefitted in the past from the Sunday morning qualifying

But would you consider making it best of 5 please. Its a small change, that has a big impact, it will probably run a bit longer, but if there is time to accommodate it, it would be excellent.

Cheers, Craig

 

[SpiderPin]

First off I’d like to thank Wayne for sorting all of this out as it’s not at all easy and it’s a massive time commitment - I certainly wouldn’t have been able to sort it all out!

But if we’re already holding qualifying for 24 hours, having multiple knockout rounds it just seems a shame to not DOUBLE the WPPRs by adding a few games (a relatively small amount when compared to the total numbers).

I do understand that not everyone cares about WPPRs, and I get that completely. Me personally, I do. But if it’s a matter of an extra 2 games to double the WPPRs, it seems like both camps would be happy? More competitive pinball and more WPPRs?

 

[Sertx]

Hi,
I am no pro and can't make many tournaments due to kids' commitments, so if by a small tweak of adding 2 games we can double-up the points, I'm sure many people will be happy, including myself.
Maybe there are other factors that I have no clue about. However, if it can be amended, it would be more enjoyable for everyone.
Thank you for organising.

 

[Jackpot]

Fully agree with the suggestions made which would make a big difference - Pinfest is obviously one of the biggest comps in the UK and with its prestige I feel should also translate into maximum WPPR points, rather than ending up comparable to a big but monthly PBR comp for example.

I get not every cares about WPPRs but I know many more casual players that do find it interesting to have a look at the rankings and see they are in the top 10-20000 in the world for example, or the top 250 in the UK.

Pinfest could be many people's best opportunity of the whole year to get a few WPPR points and it would be great to maximise their chances.

Perhaps as previously suggested by Josh you could reduce the qualifying time by 4 hours and still have the 20hrs available, which would be plenty.

Again, thank you (and those involved) for all the effort irrespectively - I understand with scheduling, scoring, TDing and organisation is far from easy.

 

[effkay]

I’d second what Jackpot says here as I would love to see points maximised at Pinfest.

I’m quite new to competitive pinball, so accept my opinion may not have the benefit of experience, but I’d also assume that everyone involved with Pinfest, pinball in the UK and competitive play would want to appeal to new players. Of which I am one.

Last year’s Pinfest tournament was the first major competition I took part in, and I was quite nervous and unsure about playing. I was greeted and encouraged to take part at the desk when I was very 50/50, this is key. I’d say the tournament being in the basement will reduce the likelihood of new players joining in. I accept this decision is for the benefit of the wider event which is not just a competition, but feel I should make my experience clear and what I think the result for competitive pinball will be. Fewer new players.

As a player with zero chance of winning a prize pot, the way to see progress is IFPA rankings, this is the prize. Since Pinfest I have become a member and regular at PBR league, as well as playing in as many matchplay comps that I can make. I track my IFPA rank and how each result impacts it. My goal is to be in the UK top 100 this year and Pinfest feels to me like the obvious place to get the points to achieve this, alongside the UK Open.

It’s easy to assume that “no one cares” about the points, and you can debate the validity of the format until the cows come home, but I’d be far less engaged with the concept of competitive pinball without them. There’s no marker of progress otherwise.

I’m not saying I wouldn’t go to Pinfest, as I acknowledge it is more than the competition, but I’m unlikely to take part in a such a big tournament that has not maximised the possible point allocation.

 

[C&C]

As has been said by several people above, it would be a shame if all the elements are there for a certified comp, but it ended up not certified, and with only half the WPPRs on offer purely because of a few additional games in the finals, being best of 5 rather than best of three. For those lucky/skilled enough to qualify, best of 5 would also be more fun, as at least you'd get to play 3 games minimum!

I'd also like to pick up on what Yuen has said, and followed up by Effkay - whilst there is this impression that "most people don't care about WPPRs", and that WPPRs are only important to those top players finishing highly, or winning competitions, I honestly don't think this is the case at all. There are many newcomers to competitive pinball, many who have taken the first few tentative steps into the competition side, and who are discovering that there is a lot of fun to be had, even if they don't yet have a realistic chance of winning. A lot of people get pleasure out of scoring a single WPPR point, and many have set themselves targets such as to aim for the top UK 150, 100, 75 etc.. It is this interest that is helping to encourage a lot of new players to improve.

I certainly appreciate that a lot of people aren't bothered about WPPRs, but there are a lot who are, so for the sake of a few additional games in the finals, would you, @Wayne J please consider changing the format to make this very popular competition certified? You'd be surprised how many people would appreciate this - many of them not in the group of top players with a realistic chance of winning it.

 

[roadshow16]

It's clear from the replies that this impacts lots of people, not just the 'top' players, really hope this can be sorted @Wayne J

@Big Phil from a logistics perspective, is it an issue if it runs a bit longer than Wayne had planned? Based on past experience, the difference between best of 3 and best of 5 in a last of 24 format, is between 1-2 hours. It's clear that lots of people would love this change to happen if it is at all possible.

Really appreciate all the effort guys

 

[Wayne J]

Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions.

I would love for the comp to be Certified, or even Certified+, but sometimes logistics don't allow.

To mention some specific points.

It will add 25% in pts, not double it.

The 'surplus' 4hrs of qualifying are likely to have to be taken from the first 4hrs of qualifying due to machines not being available Thursday.

It is not 2 extra games, it could potentially be 6 extra games.

The additional time required is likely to be over 2hrs. Seeing as the previous best of 3 finals didn't finish until half 4 at least. This will lead to a finish time of closer to 7pm.

Although this isn't a problem from a hotel perspective, it will cause a problem for machine donors having to stay until the very end.

We are trying to move things around to accomodate, but I had already looked at all options before publishing.

The move downstairs, although not ideal, shouldn't impact on those people attending specially for the comp, but may make it less visible or seem less welcoming for newer competition players.
EVERYONE who enters will be welcomed to the comp as usual.

The thing most likely to make it possible for the comp to be extended is people pledging machines for the duration - so in that respect, the ball is in all of your courts.

 

[roadshow16]

Really appreciate you trying to accommodate guys. Thank you again for all of the efforts

 

[Kaufmanised]

Fingers crossed it gets sorted as it's clearly important for a lot on people wanting to attend and if people are on the fence with coming, because end of the day you can get similar points from a single day event without the expense of multiple nights in Daventry its a no brainer to make some suggested changes to maximise the point return and draw more people to Pinfest.

 

[Taxiturn]

Thanks for all of the comments and suggestions.

I would love for the comp to be Certified, or even Certified+, but sometimes logistics don't allow.

To mention some specific points.

It will add 25% in pts, not double it.

The 'surplus' 4hrs of qualifying are likely to have to be taken from the first 4hrs of qualifying due to machines not being available Thursday.

It is not 2 extra games, itcould potentially be 6 extra games.

The additional time required is likely to be over 2hrs. Seeing as the previous best of 3 finals didn't finish until half 4 at least, This will lead to a finish time of closer to 7pm.

Although this isn't a problem.for a hotel perspective, it will cause a problem for machine donors having to stay until the very end.

We are trying to move things around to accomodaye, but I had already looked at all options before publishing.

The move downstairs, although not ideal, shouldn't impact on those people attending specially for the comp, but may make it less visible or seem less welcoming for newer competition players.
EVERYONE who enters will be welcomed to the comp as usual.

The thing most likely to make it possible for the comp to be extended is people pledging machines for the duration - so in that respect, the ball is in all of your courts.

Hi Wayne,

At the minute, you have 100% TGP for qualifying (regardless of 20 or 24 hours) and then around 44% for 24 player BO3 finals - no boost so total c. 144%. If you take the same player base as last year that’s about 60 WPPRs.

If you move to BO5 then your finals become 72%, so 172% base. Then, Certified will make that 215% and Certified+ (if you get 128+ rated players), 258%.

So BO5 Certified gives you x1.5 over BO3 (around 90 WPPRs), and Certified+ is x1.8 (around 110 WPPRs).

Fully appreciate there are lots of logistical points which may make this unfeasible, but there is more value add than just the 25%.

Many thanks for all your efforts with this,

Simon

 

[Wayne J]

The main difference between venues such as PBR with machines in situ, is that once the comp finishes everyone's kicked out and the doors are locked.

Machines being brought need breaking down, loading, travel back, unloading all before the van can be returned.

This adds significant time to the donors and staff

 

[strobey]

This is good discussion and there is lots of valid input.

I will just add that this is being very carefully discussed off group and if it works out to be possible then of course everyone involved would be delighted to make it happen.

I'm chiming in because I don't want it seen that Wayne is being negative about the idea and it certainly isn't just a simple, no-brainer change.

It changes a great deal.

Some key points and just to echo what Wayne has already said:

We cannot overlap with the Classics final, which is scheduled to finish at noon but needs time for overrun and presentations. This fixes when the Open finals can start.

The best of 5 format might take 6 hours at worse case. This potentially means a 7pm finish, plus presentations. Then it's packdown of the ten machines and gear. This would impact the donors, for which the comp is heavily dependent on, and this change mustn't jepodise being able to secure a good bank of machines from willing collectors, some of whom have already pledged.

Please also remember that whatever the format or potential for points, the comp will continue be a great accolade to Pinfest and will continue to grow and get better going forwards. The change of location this year is a further complication and we must be careful not to try and "boil the sea" and the comp be worse off for it.

I don't think they'll be an immediate answer, but rest assured it's being chewed on.

Tim

 

[Taxiturn]

Wayne

If you can accept machines on Friday morning (early if needs be) then you can include my Rush Pro in the Open, but Thursday afternoon can’t work for me as it’s another day of leave which I don’t really have and another (not booked) night of hotel as I’m not local.

Machine has been 100% reliable for the month I’ve had it

Feel free to PM if preferred,

Simon

 

[Epotech]

So those that want wppr points step up and pledge your machines for the duration.
Every year my games go by request for comps even though I've long since retired from comps.
Big Phil says he's down on pledges, come on People, step up.

 

[Wayne J]

At the minute, you have 100% TGP for qualifying (regardless of 20 or 24 hours)

This is incorrect.

From the IFPA TGP calculation page. Just for qualifying.




If 20 hrs with games TGP would be 5 x 4% + 20% = 40%

If 24 hours TGP would be 16% x 5 = 80%

So by decreasing qualifying hours by 4, comp would lose 40%.

Or am I missing something?

That's without yet checking the finals qualifying portion. Although it does say to be certified - finals should be best of 5 head to head OR papa style scoring games of 4. Not a mix.

It is not simply a case of changing BO3 to BO5.

There is no chance of being able to fit in PAPA style knockout throughout from a time perspective. With each round of 3 x 4 player games lasting at least 90 minutes, and more likely 120mins. With 4 rounds that's a finish time of up to 9pm.

Changing to Best of 5 H2H throughout would then mean there is no 4 player final at all, simply a H2H final, which I think detracts from the spectacle.

Note that any round which players can bypass with a bye, aren't included in TGP calculations.

We're still trying to work options out, but it certainly isn't as simple as increasing the rounds from best of 3 to best of 5.

 

[Taxiturn]

This is incorrect.

From the IFPA TGP calculation page. Just for qualifying.


View attachment 278499

If 20 hrs with games TGP would be 5 x 4% + 20% = 40%

If 24 hours TGP would be 16% x 5 = 80%

So by decreasing qualifying hours by 4, comp would lose 40%.

Or am I missing something?

That's without yet checking the finals qualifying portion. Although it does say to be certified - finals should be best of 5 head to head OR papa style scoring games of 4. Not a mix.

It is not simply a case of changing BO3 to BO5.

There is no chance of being able to fit in PAPA style knockout throughout from a time perspective. With each round of 3 x 4 player games lasting at least 90 minutes, and more likely 120mins. With 4 rounds that's a finish time of up to 9pm.

Changing to Best of 5 H2H throughout would then mean there is no 4 player final at all, simply a H2H final, which I think detracts from the spectacle.

Note that any round which players can bypass with a bye, aren't included in TGP calculations.

We're still trying to work options out, but it certainly isn't as simple as increasing the rounds from best of 3 to best of 5.

You have 20+ hours of qualifying (whether 20 or 24) so agree you have 5 counting games x 16% = 80% as a basic point.

But then in addition, as you have unlimited attempts you also get an added 1% TGP per hour of qualifying up to a maximum of 20%, tack that on to your 80% and you get your 100% for qualifying. Your extra 4 hours beyond the 20 don’t give you anything extra in either of the above calculations.

As for mixed format finals, as you are mixing two certifiable formats (BO5 and PAPA) I believe you should still be okay to certify, but this is the sort of thing that can be checked and cleared with Josh Sharpe or another IFPA rep in advance to make sure it’s fine.

As for bye rounds not counting, that’s not entirely true and there is a published table of “meaningful games” (counting for 4% each) for BO5 at different player counts:



In group matchplay finals bye rounds do reduce meaningful games to a degree because in that format it is calculated based on the expected number of games played to win the tournament. But in single elimination H2H, your number of matchups to reach a result for N finalists will necessarily be N-1, so they can publish the above list. When mixing the two there might be some tweaks to TGP, thus why my numbers quoted are rough estimates. Your only bye requirement for certification is that nobody can get a bye beyond the round of 16, which won’t be an issue at Pinfest.

 

[Wayne J]

BYE rounds definitely dont count.

The number of matches may be n-1, but the number of games could vary, between 3 and 5, (for a Bo5) so an average is taken, so 4 games TGP 16% per round.

Finals format of Bo5 with PAPA final

This would give 3 x 16% = 48% plus finals of 3 4player games = 24% Total 72%

Which is the same as ALL Bo5 matches for last 16.

It would certainly reduce time if EVERY round was Bo5, but would only give a 2 player final, potentially reducing the tension.

As for asking an IFPA rep, I was the UK IFPA rep for a number of years, and remarkably am still on their forum.

The fact that one of the changes I suggested, haranguing Josh for many years both in private and public was having only pre-approved formats with a set TGP was only implemented after I stepped down, is ironic.
(Likewise, the certified competition formats was another suggestion I made, although not called certified I went for boosted.)

The fact that it is still so open to manipulation and abuse, kind of misses the point altogether.

 

[roadshow16]

Finals format of Bo5 with PAPA final

This would give 3 x 16% = 48% plus finals of 3 4player games = 24% Total 72%

That's correct, just as Simon explained yesterday

If you move to BO5 then your finals become 72%, so 172% base. Then, Certified will make that 215% and Certified+ (if you get 128+ rated players), 258%.

He's a taxman, he's good with numbers

 

[Taxiturn]

BYE rounds definitely dont count.

The number of matches may be n-1, but the number of games could vary, between 3 and 5, (for a Bo5) so an average is taken, so 4 games TGP 16% per round.

Finals format of Bo5 with PAPA final

This would give 3 x 16% = 48% plus finals of 3 4player games = 24% Total 72%

Which is the same as ALL Bo5 matches for last 16.

It would certainly reduce time if EVERY round was Bo5, but would only give a 2 player final, potentially reducing the tension.

As for asking an IFPA rep, I was the UK IFPA rep for a number of years, and remarkably am still on their forum.

The fact that one of the changes I suggested, haranguing Josh for many years both in private and public was having only pre-approved formats with a set TGP was only implemented after I stepped down, is ironic.
(Likewise, the certified competition formats was another suggestion I made, although not called certified I went for boosted.)

The fact that it is still so open to manipulation and abuse, kind of misses the point altogether.

Fully aware of your IFPA pedigree!

I think any further discussion here on TGP is moot really, Josh and the current IFPA gang will be able to clear up any outstanding queries around mixed format certification, TGP calcs etc. if needs be, if BO5 / PAPA final is a potentially viable option for Pinfest

 

[roadshow16]

Morning Wayne

That's without yet checking the finals qualifying portion. Although it does say to be certified - finals should be best of 5 head to head OR papa style scoring games of 4. Not a mix.

Yep, you were correct. Josh has confirmed, no mixing, you pick a format and stick with it all the way through if you want to be certified

Changing to Best of 5 H2H throughout would then mean there is no 4 player final at all, simply a H2H final, which I think detracts from the spectacle

Yep, right again. If you go with best of 5 it would need to be a 2 player final instead of 4. Personally I think there is still plenty of tension and spectacle (not saying we will be able to produce the IFPA16 Daniele Vs Johannes best match of all time, but we can certainly try )

It would certainly reduce time if EVERY round was Bo5, but would only give a 2 player final, potentially reducing the tension.

Yeah as you say, switching to BO5 all the way through would definitely reduce the time in comparison to having the PAPA final 4. Hopefully that's the best compromise, it means the tournament can be certified and will hopefully run a little quicker.

We're still trying to work options out, but it certainly isn't as simple as increasing the rounds from best of 3 to best of 5.

Thanks again for all of the time and effort going in with this, we know how much of a labour of love it is and really do massively appreciate all the effort you guys put in. It's going to be brilliant!