Noob melted coil sleeve question

[delgarno]

disclaimer - this is my first problem on my first pinball machine, so could be a dumb question…

After one day with my very first pin (Data East Time Machine) I have my first issue. Both frustrating, and fun as I get to fix something.

Played fine for about 10 games the first day, and then day two turned it on and the right flipper didn’t work. It was stuck and didn’t move with hand, and underneath the solenoid didn’t move. I noticed the coil was a bit warmer than the left (but not hot).

I took it apart and traced it back to a melted coil sleeve that was totally blocking the solenoid. I was able to part push the melted plastic out with a screwdriver but there is still part of the sleeve melted in and it won’t slide out. (See photos)

I need help with fix.

The most obvious thing seems to be to replace the sleeve, and looks like I need either (not sure if different?):
* https://www.pinball.co.uk/spares-ac...-parts/flipper-coil-plastic-sleeve-03-7066-5/
* https://www.pinball.co.uk/spares-accessories/general-parts/coil-sleeves/sleeve-for-solenoid-03-7066/

This assumes I can get the old sleeve out and clean out the melted plastic inside.

My main question is why did this happen, and do I need to replace the coil, or trace back to any other issues?

The game played beautifully with strong flippers and no obvious issues. Perhaps something happened during transport to make this happen?

Thanks and I’m sure this will be my first of many questions, and looking forward to learning enough over time to start to give back to the community as well.

 

[Jay Walker]

I'm sorry, but the coil's ruined. The winding has overheated, collapsing the plastic former and the sleeve inwards. Looking at your pictures, I see that at least there isn't 'solid state' flipper control, it's the traditional End-of Stroke switch arrangement.

The most likely cause is that the EoS didn't open, to cut down the current flowing in the coil while the flipper is held raised. It does look to be adjusted for a lot of travel on the flipper linkage before that red-covered bar pushes it open, Both switches look a bit burnt, too, the left side more so.

If you'd like more de**il, I'll try;

• Player presses flipper button, sending current through both windings of the flipper coil, and flipper snaps On
• End-of-Stroke switch opens, cutting out the high-current Power winding
• The yellow capacitor wired across the switch supresses a 'back emf' spike which would otherwise spark across the contacts as they open
• The lower-powered Hold winding keeps the flipper raised, while the button is pressed

Along with a new coil, I'd obtain EoS switches and capacitors too. Taking care, wire the new components as with the existing ones, maybe doing one side first while referring to the other. Ensure that the switch opens clearly with the flipper at the end of its travel. Setting a high-current EoS switch affects the flipper operation - too soon, and some power is lost, but not opening is disastrous, as seen above. Another tip is to get a good 'wiping' action as the switch opens/closes again. Ideally, the shorter blade of the switch should move a little way with the longer one before the contacts break open, and then the longer blade should push back against the shorter as they close again. Though the crucial thing is that the contacts open a good amount with the coil plunger against the end stop, so when adjusting pull in the plunger with a thumbnail on its back edge, rather than moving the crank or the flipper.

Another point to check is for wear in the flipper link, the blue plastic part fastened between the flipper plunger going into the coil and the crank which actually turns the flipper. Severe wear in that could've lost enough motion in the crank to allow the switch to remain closed, even with the plunger right against the end stop.

 

[Deleted member 5505]

Looks exactly what happened to my Data East Robocop, when you replace the coil ensure it’s the correct one and the diode is the right way. Otherwise you could cause a whole host of other nasties, which I encountered.

 

[delgarno]

I'm sorry, but the coil's ruined. The winding has overheated, collapsing the plastic former and the sleeve inwards. Looking at your pictures, I see that at least there isn't 'solid state' flipper control, it's the traditional End-of Stroke switch arrangement.

The most likely cause is that the EoS didn't open, to cut down the current flowing in the coil while the flipper is held raised. It does look to be adjusted for a lot of travel on the flipper linkage before that red-covered bar pushes it open, Both switches look a bit burnt, too, the left side more so.

If you'd like more de**il, I'll try;

• Player presses flipper button, sending current through both windings of the flipper coil, and flipper snaps On
• End-of-Stroke switch opens, cutting out the high-current Power winding
• The yellow capacitor wired across the switch supresses a 'back emf' spike which would otherwise spark across the contacts as they open
• The lower-powered Hold winding keeps the flipper raised, while the button is pressed

Along with a new coil, I'd obtain EoS switches and capacitors too. Taking care, wire the new components as with the existing ones, maybe doing one side first while referring to the other. Ensure that the switch opens clearly with the flipper at the end of its travel.

Another point to check is for wear in the flipper link, the blue plastic part fastened between the flipper plunger going into the coil and the crank which actually turns the flipper. Severe wear in that could've lost enough motion in the crank to allow the switch to remain closed, even with the plunger right against the end stop.

Thanks. This is super helpful and now I see exactly what happened. Looks like the EoS switch was not quite bent properly to open and coil must have overheated, melting the sleeve.

How can I test the coil? Might it still be good?

It seems that there is a possibility I can fix with just a new sleeve and bending the EoS switch to properly disengague?

I was looking around for a replacement coil for this (Data East part 090-5011-00), and seems hard to find in the UK?

 

[Pick Holder]

Change the following:
Driver transistor
Coil
EOS switch (or give it a good clean).

The coil is toast.

 

[RetroHeed]

Plenty guys on here will be able to help you out with your issue. Sounds like a few things need changed out as the others have said.

Just had a look at my Time Machine and it seem I have Bally AQ-25-500/34-4500 Coils installed. One is marked Bally as the photo show below, and the other just has AQ 25-500 which I assume is the same type as the Bally one. Both measure 3.3-3.6 Resistance. Not sure why these type are installed, possibly the originals are to powerful ?



I haven't had any issues with my flippers as such so I have not had to do much to them. Though I see I should really change the flipper switches.

Here is a chart of Coils which comes in handy,

https://flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

Also have a good read over things here, this will help you out also.

https://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/desega/index2.htm#flip0

 

[Ashbo]

Plenty guys on here will be able to help you out with your issue. Sounds like a few things need changed out as the others have said.

Just had a look at my Time Machine and it seem I have Bally AQ-25-500/34-4500 Coils installed. One is marked Bally as the photo show below, and the other just has AQ 25-500 which I assume is the same type as the Bally one. Both measure 3.3-3.6 Resistance. Not sure why these type are installed, possibly the originals are to powerful ?

View attachment 188681

I haven't had any issues with my flippers as such so I have not had to do much to them. Though I see I should really change the flipper switches.

Here is a chart of Coils which comes in handy,

https://flippers.com/coil-resistance.html

Also have a good read over things here, this will help you out also.

https://techniek.flipperwinkel.nl/desega/index2.htm#flip0

Agreed, the original DE coils are strong and have a tendency to smash up plastics on your precious ramps.

As @Pick Holder says, an eos not working and a coil melting will also blow the transistor on the board.

 

[pinballmania]

Mostly all correct but ignore any mention of replacing transistor as not used on this system.

 

[delgarno]

Mostly all correct but ignore any mention of replacing transistor as not used on this system.

That’s great, thank you and thanks to everyone else

I took out the coil last night and measured the resistance (think it’s supposed to be between 2-4 ohms) and it was jumping around so guess bad.

Can someone recommend replacement coils, as it seems the original 090-5011-00 are hard to find, and some say overpowered?

Thanks again for the help, I’m having fun learning and getting my hands dirty. (And trying to patiently explain to my 10 year old son that fixing things and learning how things work is just as fun as playing the machine!)

 

[Jagspete]

As you’re already in pieces you should replace the plunger and linkages (blue bit which looks damaged anyway) and the end stop bracket . Look for flipper repair kit but make sure it’s suitable for an early data east ( check out pinball mania or pinball heaven for uk suppliers) also see if the coil fitted is the specified one as sometimes they’re replaced with whatever’s to hand

 

[Pick Holder]

Mostly all correct but ignore any mention of replacing transistor as not used on this system.

Well done for picking that up.
To be honest I did not pay much attention to the game.

 

[Matt Adams]

Hi @delgarno,

Sorry I didn't pick up on this yesterday out on a 12 hour rugby and football bender, I know, at my age!

@pinballmania can supply all the parts you require, if you contact him with your address I am happy to pay for the parts. Can you invoice me directly Andy, is that ok?

I probably never played more than 2 games in a row so never noticed a over heating coil, welcome to the world of pinball

 

[Jay Walker]

Re. sourcing a fresh coil,

The damaged one seems to be a parallel-wound dual winding, so maybe a Williams coil may suit, if the voltage used is similar. A 'Red label' FL 11630. The stronger 'Blue' 11629 may be too powerful.

Another thing that comes to mind is possible damage to circuit board traces. The ground returns of the flipper circuits are broken by the flipper relay on the Cpu board. Though if the flipper worked seemingly okay for your first session, and was dead when the machine was powered up again, you're likely to be alright, provided the button wasn't held in for long while the flippers were On.

Just had a look at my Time Machine and it seem I have Bally AQ-25-500/34-4500 Coils installed. One is marked Bally as the photo show below, and the other just has AQ 25-500 which I assume is the same type as the Bally one. Both measure 3.3-3.6 Resistance. Not sure why these type are installed, possibly the originals are to powerful ?

The flipper coils in this TM are Bally serial-wound coils. Someone's fitted it with Gottlieb flipper mechanisms, and used Bally coils to suit the 50v coil power, as Gottlieb used a lower voltage.

 

[calvin12]

Thanks. This is super helpful and now I see exactly what happened. Looks like the EoS switch was not quite bent properly to open and coil must have overheated, melting the sleeve.

How can I test the coil? Might it still be good?

It seems that there is a possibility I can fix with just a new sleeve and bending the EoS switch to properly disengague?

I was looking around for a replacement coil for this (Data East part 090-5011-00), and seems hard to find in the UK?

I'm not one for "just replace it" but in this case the coil clearly overheated and it will need to be replaced. It is not an option here. Coils are cheap and easy to get (granted I'm in the US), but you shoudl be able to get one from whatever suppliers are over there. Trying to reuse it either won't work at all or will lead to more problems.

 

[delgarno]

Hi everyone thanks for all the comments and advice. Update on the outcome in case anyone is searching this forum in the future.

I went with a Williams FL-11630 replacement coil as this seems to be the most recommended coil for this machine and slightly less power than stock, so it doesn’t break plastics.

I also replaced the plunger and link, and cleaned the EoS switch and bent it into a place that seemed OK.

I bought a new EoS switch too but was too impatient to change it, so will have to change it, as well as change the other flipper coil so they match in the future.

Machine plays great now and I learned a few new things. Soldering is probably not pretty but seems good enough.

(The video was to my brother in Canada who has 9 pins of his own, including a Time Machine)

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