No longer doing new builds... and other 'PickHolder' moanings - and advice.

[Pick Holder]

Hello all, as per another post on here I have decided after MANY years doing vpins I will not be taking on customer orders for a good while.

However I will consider doing refurbs of existing made games and upgrades to machines I have built and sold - subject to how busy I am. Reasons are layed out on the other posting.

The advice - take it (or leave it).

Have only seen a handful of other vpins that I feel are well made. Kase-eo machines I would not touch with a barge pole. I have upgraded 3 or 4 arcadeland machines and these were underpowered and ran with stutter. Opinions are they have improved on recent builds.

The best made games I have generally seen have been done by individuals, who put a lot of time and effort into it. They generally use better much higher specification parts.

Have not seen any UK companies that build AMAZING vpins. Please prove me wrong on this. Clearly someone in the UK needs to make machines to this quality:

Retro Play Virtual Pinball Arcade Machine Manufacturer in Australia

Welcome to Retro Play, manufacturers of high quality virtual pinball machines, arcade machines, dart machines, racing sims and more. We are based in Victoria, Australia and ship our products all over the world.

retro-play.com.au

PLEASE NOTE - DO NOT SEND MONEY TO THE COMPANY ABOVE AS THEY ARE IN LIQUIDATION (ADDED FEB 2023). I WAS GIVING THIS COMPANY AS AN EXAMPLE AS THEY DO VERY HIGH QUALITY BUILDS.

If you have the money to back me - get in touch!

Most people who can strip down and re-assemble a pinball along with some computer knowledge can make a vpin. All the details are on the interweb. The only thing you need is time! Some people do not have this so buying a vpin is the only option.

http://mjrnet.org/pinscape/BuildGuideV2/BuildGuide.php - this is a great resource.

Get hold of these:

KL25Z - to make a pinscape controller. I use this to control all the button inputs, plunger and nudge.

PacDrive - controls LEDs directly (for the buttons) as well as controlling relay boards for feedback. Make sure you get the one with special pinball firmware!

Solenoids for feedback - https://www.amazon.co.uk/Starter-terminal-starter-magnetic-switch/dp/B07SB38XN4/ref=sr_1_11?crid=3ENYB5KMG1A01&keywords=solenoid+car&qid=1662899836&sprefix=solenoid+car,aps,78&sr=8-11 - have tried out contactors and other things - this is the best!

Amplifier - https://www.amazon.co.uk/NJDT-Mochatopia-Amplifier-Powerful-Streaming-Mini-Bass/dp/B09TPXLZK4/ref=sr_1_9?crid=1VZQ9LTEO04Z9&keywords=2.1+amplifier&qid=1662899893&sprefix=2.1+amplifier+,aps,81&sr=8-9

PC with at least an Intel i5/i7 3.5ghz processor, with 16gb DDR4 memory. 500gb/1tb SSD, 8gb/12gb graphic card (DDR5). Use Nvidia graphic cards.

Decent power supply for PC.

Get switch mode power supplies to run everything else. Generally I run a 20amp 12v at least.

Do not forget diodes across solenoids.

For DMD I would tend to look at another screen, but cut it out the DMD panel like a modern stern. Rumours are Spike is going to be emulated soon.

HAVE FUN.

 

[Doggard]

I’ve recently received my vr pin sim from Dave at retro play. The build quality is superb, really can’t fault it, it’s running vpx vr with zero issues, no slow down at all even with a frantic multi ball going.
Just a shame he’s a pain in the ass to deal with, it’s been 10 months of hell for me !
BUT it’s the end products that matter, and his work is fantastic, expensive but worth it

 

[Doggard]

Just need to figure out how to add tables now, I’ve been online looking, and can’t find a idiots guide !
If anyone in the east anglia region, has the knowledge to help me add some tables to it, there will be a generous drink for ya

 

[Lroy]

@Pick Holder Sorry to read you’re not longer building new VPins for members on here. Gutted I never managed to get one built by you. But thank you for all your advice and the time you’ve taken to chat with me via DMs on here.

Will keep an eye out for when and if any of your past builds become available.

In the meantime I’ll get started with a more modest machine from a UK manufacturer just to get my hands on a VPin at last and gauge whether it’s something I really take to and therefore justify further expense on getting a better build in the future.

All the best in any case mate.

 

[Lroy]

@Doggard Glad you finally got your VR machine mate. Can only imagine how amazing it must be. Closest I’ve got to playing a VR Pinball is the old 3D mode on PBFX2 on PS3 using my TV and glasses, lol!

 

[wilbers]

Just need to figure out how to add tables now, I’ve been online looking, and can’t find a idiots guide !
If anyone in the east anglia region, has the knowledge to help me add some tables to it, there will be a generous drink for ya

Isn't the answer to work out how to activate/install the app store, and once you've done that its supposed to be idiot proof?

Virtual Pinball App Store

Find out about the Retro Play virtual pinball app store

retro-play.com.au

 

[Marvello]

Does this mean my Pick Holder built V-Pin has just gone up in value .

Re. Solenoid feedback, it's something I've spoken with Pick Holder/Phil about previously but we never got to the bottom of it. Has anyone else here got solenoid feedback, if so do your solenoids heat up so much they stop working until they cool down?

After about 10 minutes the flipper solenoids stop working and they are too hot to touch. If I leave it a few minutes they start working again. I assume the others (slings, pops etc.) would do the same but they are used less so probably never get hot enough.

I've swapped one of the non-flipper solenoids to act as the flipper solenoid with the same result so that's at least 3 with the issue and imagine the others would do the same if I swapped them around so doubt all 3 are inherently faulty.

I know they are used on lots of V-Pins so not sure what the underlying issue with mine is. Possibly software related but nothing obvious from what I can see.

 

[Doggard]

Isn't the answer to work out how to activate/install the app store, and once you've done that its supposed to be idiot proof?

Virtual Pinball App Store

Find out about the Retro Play virtual pinball app store

retro-play.com.au

I wish it was that easy ! But Dave has blocked me on social media, and will not allow me access to his new App Store.
Apparently he thinks it’s ok to blank his customers for weeks, sometimes months on end, not replying to emails and messages, then calling me impatient because I wanted to know how my order was progressing. I paid in full last October, and he didn’t show me any pics of the build til this may ! He gets really aggressive as well, just for asking questions.
He has no concept of how to treat customers, and comes across as a bit of a dick tbh. Shame really as his products are top notch.
He”s totally different to his wife, who I’ve been dealing with since April, after he refused to talk to me anymore
She’s couldn’t have been more helpful, he should let her deal with customers, and concentrate on he builds

 

[wilbers]

email his wife then to get access to the app store, and then you can tell the rest of us what its like to use.

 

[Doggard]

email his wife then to get access to the app store, and then you can tell the rest of us what its like to use.

I did email her friday with a couple of questions, on Friday when I received it. But it’s gone deathly quite again !

Dave does state on the app, that if he’s had a run in with any customers, then they will not be allowed access to the app.
Going by what I’ve read online, that would be most customers, probably less than 10 people using the app !

 

[Fantazia2]

For the overheating flipper solenoids, not sure what you have but are they wired like a normal flipper solenoid would be, ie With an end of stroke switch that limits current when you've got the flipper button held down, or are they just designed to fire when you press the flipper button but maybes are staying activated too long causing them to heat up.

I've not gotten round to doing any solenoids with mine yet.

Also with ref to the kl25z not sure if these are in short supply at the moment but I'm working on my own version for my cab using an arduino and accelerometer with button and plunger inputs, and I'll put up a post about it when I've gotten it working so others can have a play with it and hopefully give some feedback.

 

[Lroy]

I wish it was that easy ! But Dave has blocked me on social media, and will not allow me access to his new App Store.
Apparently he thinks it’s ok to blank his customers for weeks, sometimes months on end, not replying to emails and messages, then calling me impatient because I wanted to know how my order was progressing. I paid in full last October, and he didn’t show me any pics of the build til this may ! He gets really aggressive as well, just for asking questions.
He has no concept of how to treat customers, and comes across as a bit of a dick tbh. Shame really as his products are top notch.
He”s totally different to his wife, who I’ve been dealing with since April, after he refused to talk to me anymore
She’s couldn’t have been more helpful, he should let her deal with customers, and concentrate on he builds

Sorry to hear you’ve had such a slog to get the product you paid for. Really hope it blows you away now you have it. Politeness costs nothing and poor customer service can sour the whole experience and ultimately makes potential customers look elsewhere. Hopefully, as his business is no doubt booming, improvements can be made in this regard. Thanks for sharing your experiences mate.

 

[Jib]

I can see myself wanting another vpin in the future, just gives you so much variety. Maybe a good quality mini one. None of the commercial builders here seem to even have nice sturdy cabs with good hardware let alone decent screens, pcs and other parts. The cab was the main reason I had to think hard about letting mine go tbh, that and the amount of time I’d put into it.

Hope someone invests into you building more in the future but I know they can take a lot of time to do for the amount of profit.

 

[Pick Holder]

TEN MONTHS WAIT @Doggard - that is worse than real pinball.

Sure if someone wants a machine in 10 months I will take their cash now and deliver in July 2023......

No matter how good the build is you should not have to wait that long.

 

[David_Vi]

Just need to figure out how to add tables now, I’ve been online looking, and can’t find a idiots guide !
If anyone in the east anglia region, has the knowledge to help me add some tables to it, there will be a generous drink for ya

Have you tried the virtual pinball FB groups?

I assume it's complicated because you have to get the games set up in some sort of launcher, especially for VR.

On desktop I just have the vpx and rom files and open them directly no sexy user interface but I rarely play.

 

[Marvello]

For the overheating flipper solenoids, not sure what you have but are they wired like a normal flipper solenoid would be, ie With an end of stroke switch that limits current when you've got the flipper button held down, or are they just designed to fire when you press the flipper button but maybes are staying activated too long causing them to heat up.

I've not gotten round to doing any solenoids with mine yet.

They are just designed to fire. I did find a 'pulse duration' setting in the config tester a while ago so changed it from 60 to 10. Not sure if this only applied in the config tester or was a global setting but it didn't make any difference.

 

[Doggard]

TEN MONTHS WAIT @Doggard - that is worse than real pinball.

Sure if someone wants a machine in 10 months I will take their cash now and deliver in July 2023......

No matter how good the build is you should not have to wait that long.

Yeah it’s been a slog !
Asked for a refund 3 times but got ignored
Shame no one in the uk builds great pin sim vr, would much rather kept my money ln the uk, with far less hassle

 

[Pick Holder]

They are just designed to fire. I did find a 'pulse duration' setting in the config tester a while ago so changed it from 60 to 10. Not sure if this only applied in the config tester or was a global setting but it didn't make any difference.

I thought I messaged you with a fix. Use wirewound resistors in series with the positive side of the solenoid. I have some I can send.

 

[Marvello]

I thought I messaged you with a fix. Use wirewound resistors in series with the positive side of the solenoid. I have some I can send.

Ah OK, no I haven't received any messages about resistors. I'll PM you .

 

[ChrisH]

Isn't the answer to work out how to activate/install the app store, and once you've done that its supposed to be idiot proof?

Virtual Pinball App Store

Find out about the Retro Play virtual pinball app store

retro-play.com.au

That will go down well with the table authors - I'm wondering if it was this guy who caused VPinball.com call it a day (I know it was someone down under who didn't see any problem with mass downloading everything sticking it on a SSD and then flogging it for profit)
No, the authors don't really have any 'rights' over the tables - they're using licences and assets they don't own, but they do ask that the stuff isn't distributed for profit and as some of the recreations take 100s of hours of work then I do see their point.

VPX (and PinMAME I assume) is not allowed to be distributed commercially at all if I recall their licence correctly
I suspect this is why any pre-built table is going to disappointing unless its a bespoke one off builder with time and knowledge - I don't think a company can legally do a VPX cab with tables it so it's all done on shaky ground from the get go.
The Acarde1UP stuff is legit, but isn't running VPX and TBH I thought it looked pretty underwhelming.
VirtuaPin do cabinets and I think they're pretty well thought of, but they will come with Windows and instructions - no actual games and they're expensive and US based.

Now if you build a machine for someone, deliver it with Windows booting to a Windows desktop and they then ask you to show them how to install VPX and tables and as a mate you help them out that's all above board
That said - it's not difficult to learn how to do it and I'd recommend learning before you spend any cash, you just need a PC and some time - A VPin is just a PC in a large wooden box with 3 screens hanging off it at the end of the day!

Now I'm off to install the new BTDK, and RS releases on mine

 

[Pick Holder]

That will go down well with the table authors - I'm wondering if it was this guy who caused VPinball.com call it a day (I know it was someone down under who didn't see any problem with mass downloading everything sticking it on a SSD and then flogging it for profit)
No, the authors don't really have any 'rights' over the tables - they're using licences and assets they don't own, but they do ask that the stuff isn't distributed for profit and as some of the recreations take 100s of hours of work then I do see their point.

VPX (and PinMAME I assume) is not allowed to be distributed commercially at all if I recall their licence correctly
I suspect this is why any pre-built table is going to disappointing unless its a bespoke one off builder with time and knowledge - I don't think a company can legally do a VPX cab with tables it so it's all done on shaky ground from the get go.
The Acarde1UP stuff is legit, but isn't running VPX and TBH I thought it looked pretty underwhelming.
VirtuaPin do cabinets and I think they're pretty well thought of, but they will come with Windows and instructions - no actual games and they're expensive and US based.

Now if you build a machine for someone, deliver it with Windows booting to a Windows desktop and they then ask you to show them how to install VPX and tables and as a mate you help them out that's all above board
That said - it's not difficult to learn how to do it and I'd recommend learning before you spend any cash, you just need a PC and some time - A VPin is just a PC in a large wooden box with 3 screens hanging off it at the end of the day!

Now I'm off to install the new BTDK, and RS releases on mine

@ChrisH - there is not such a thing as a licence in the VP community. As you have said the whole hobby absolutely condricts copyright on the tables, backglass images, eprom use, sounds.... you name it. The table authors do get pee'd off when work is sold. However, there is nothing legally they can do as the tables they have 'programmed' is using a lot of things that are not their own work. If you put things out for FREE online you can not moan that it gets into peoples packs that they sell. To be honest - if I could offer a subscription service so when a new game comes out I connect and it gets installed and updated I would be up for it. Perhaps they should look into doing this and charging for it themselves.

Pinball companies are not really worried about vpins. It certainly will not affect sales of real tables NIB. Gary Stern confirmed this and even Planetary Pinball have not issues any C&D letters.

I would not dream on selling a VPIN without tables installed. I would get badgered for weeks from customers with emails and phone calls.

 

[Doggard]

This is something I’ve thought about also. I get why the authors and community get upset when people sell vpins fully loaded, hell of a lot of work goes into creating those tables.
But why don’t they all get together, make an app, like Dave at retro play has. Make it so it’s easy to just download to your vpin, if he can do it, then it’s possible.
I would happily pay a subscription service, to have access to the whole database, and new releases, and just click and download.
It would save a lot of bitterness, and everyone is a winner

 

[ChrisH]

@ChrisH - there is not such a thing as a licence in the VP community. As you have said the whole hobby absolutely condricts copyright on the tables, backglass images, eprom use, sounds.... you name it. The table authors do get pee'd off when work is sold. However, there is nothing legally they can do as the tables they have 'programmed' is using a lot of things that are not their own work. If you put things out for FREE online you can not moan that it gets into peoples packs that they sell. To be honest - if I could offer a subscription service so when a new game comes out I connect and it gets installed and updated I would be up for it. Perhaps they should look into doing this and charging for it themselves.

Pinball companies are not really worried about vpins. It certainly will not affect sales of real tables NIB. Gary Stern confirmed this and even Planetary Pinball have not issues any C&D letters.

I would not dream on selling a VPIN without tables installed. I would get badgered for weeks from customers with emails and phone calls.

Tablewise you're 100% correct, I know they don't have a legal leg to stand on but I can equally see that when you spend a boatload of time on something and someone picks it up and starts charging for it why you might not bother sharing it next time. - I'm not worried about Stern or whoever clamping down on it, I'm worried about more authors giving up sharing things or one of the other sites going the way of VPinball.

However on the software side (as in VPX itself) there really is a licence:

vpinball/LICENSE at master · vpinball/vpinball

Visual Pinball. Contribute to vpinball/vpinball development by creating an account on GitHub.

github.com

Redistributions may not be sold, nor may they be used in a commercial
product or activity.

It also uses Bass.DLL for loading and playing sound effects and music.
From the website https://www.un4seen.com/bass.html :
BASS is free for non-commercial use.
If you are a non-commercial entity (eg. an individual) and you are not making any money from your product (through sales, advertising, etc),
then you can use BASS in it for free. Otherwise, one of the following licences will be required (see website for current prices)

Then there are the ROMs themselves of course

For a bespoke builder who does a few cabs a year no-one is going to care, but I suspect this is why there aren't a load of well funded companies doing it en mass and why those ones that do pop up always seem a bit fly by night to me......
It's the same as all the MAME stuff though I guess and that's been happening for years.....

If that downloader thing is the same guy that made the guys behind VPinball throw in the towel I suspect he's the one that VPU is constantly trying to stop leaching files (and causing huge bandwidth spikes and associated costs) and why there are now daily download limits on the site.
Building the tool he's got there isn't difficult by the looks of it - it's just a script with a GUI, but I wouldn't expect it to work forever as they'll stop it working by moving stuff around and it'll be a constant game of cat and mouse until someone gives up.
I agree a sanctioned downloading tool would be a great idea, but the VP community is always about 3 seconds from falling out with itself I suspect it'd never happen.....


On another note - new BTDK on VPU now, and its great - so get it on your cabs

 

[Pick Holder]

bass.dll @ChrisH is not part of the table. It is part of VPX that is not needed when sharing tables.

The VP community as you said is pretty expolosive at the best of times. They can not agree on anything and are a nightmare group to deal with.

It does make me laugh that pin2dmd colour files are free for vpins and the files needed for real pins is charged. Without real pinball owners most these tables would not exist. I have done so many scans and hi-res images to table authors over the years from real games.

Personally I would have ZERO opposition to paying for some new VPin tables. But of course the IP is not theirs to sell. Anyone can get these files FOC so why do they not have a simple download pack for newbies to get started with...?

 

[Pick Holder]

For table downloads:

Unsure how many links are valid.....

VPS Substitute- V3.6 by Dux

 

[ChrisH]

bass.dll @ChrisH is not part of the table. It is part of VPX that is not needed when sharing tables.

The VP community as you said is pretty expolosive at the best of times. They can not agree on anything and are a nightmare group to deal with.

It does make me laugh that pin2dmd colour files are free for vpins and the files needed for real pins is charged. Without real pinball owners most these tables would not exist. I have done so many scans and hi-res images to table authors over the years from real games.

Personally I would have ZERO opposition to paying for some new VPin tables. But of course the IP is not theirs to sell. Anyone can get these files FOC so why do they not have a simple download pack for newbies to get started with...?

Yep,
My point was you need VPX on the machine to make it do much, and the licence for VPX itself says you can't distribute it if making the machines commercially which makes the tables themselves a bit of a mute point.....

Small scale builders doing build to order or people doing their own are not going to upset anyone (and I'm not trying to be the police or anything - just voicing my opinion on why there aren't any decent off the shelf-at-scale options for VPins)

100% - the VP community is a niche within a niche within a niche and they yet spend their entire time fighting with each other over semantics IMO - I don't tend to interact with the forums there anymore other than to say thanks for the tables, but I do enjoy the end result.
I agree it's the tables are a bit of a minefield for newbies, I guess it's tricky to do a 'pack' even if it was sanctioned by a group as the tables are constantly updated
I've written guides here before on how to do table on-boarding/updates etc, I'll happily do it again (or maybe I could video the process), the other thing is you might need to tweak the views/change the options depending on the screen you have so it's not a one-size fits all

You have me thinking, I'm sure I could write a script to automate ingesting new tables into an existing setup, assuming people were using a standard naming convention Eg. TableName (Manufacture Year), using default paths, and PinballX for the front end.....
I wouldn't automate the download as that's where people get upset, but if people could get the table and rom and manage to copy it to a couple of folders on their cab I could probably script the rest of the process.....
Maybe when I have some time I'll have a go at building something, still won't solve the per machine tweaks like the POV though.....

The Pin2DMD stuff is weird - charging for that seems a slightly dodgy thing to do as again the assets are copyright (right?)
I'd happily contribute a few quid to the authors for their efforts too.....

 

[Marvello]

On another note - new BTDK on VPU now, and its great - so get it on your cabs

Damn you! I'm trying to avoid loading up new tables and playing what I've already got. Feel like I have to grab it though in case it disappears for whatever reason.

 

[Marvello]

Did that other version of Iron Maiden get released?

 

[Lroy]

BTDK?

 

[Marvello]

BTDK?

Batman Dark Knight