New (Redesigned) Boards

[Paul]

Hi all,

Thought i would throw this out there since i dont know wether it's something worth persuing or not.

I'm contemplating making some reproduction WPC89/WPC95/System 11 Boards available. These would be hand made built-to-order by myself, and fully tested before delivery.

Not looking at doing CPU boards at this time since there seems to be a multitude of these available from Pinled/Pinsound at a reasonable price.

I could potentially do the following :

WPC89 - Driver board/Sound Board/DMD Driver/Fliptronic board/DCS board/Coin Door interface/8 Driver Aux board
WPC95 - Driver board/AV Board/Coin Door interface
WPC Opto boards - 3-Opto/7-Opto/10-Opto/16-Opto

System 11 N/A/B/C MPU Boards (I know these can be hard to come by).

System 11 Discrete displays (e.g. High Speed)
System 11 Quad display (e.g. F-14)
System 11 Double display (e.g. Whirlwind)
System 11 Double with Jackpot display (Taxi and Police Force).
System 11 Single display (e.g. Elvira and the Party Monsters)

Currently at the moment just an idea. Just to give an idea of the boards themselves....





Any demand for any of these at all?? Prices will depend on parts and board costs, however i would like to think these would be reasonable.

Cheers
Paul

 

[David_Vi]

These look great!
I know sys11 boards are hard to come by, we struggled when looking for one for Diner (sys11c) as an option before it was repaired.

 

[Paul]

Well this is one that arrived to me last week that i am using to build a System 11 test rig. Compatible with (or will be by the time I've finished) any System 11 setup - A/B or C

 

[cmrl9]

Cool, great work.

 

[Dex-Jay]

I'll need some WPC-95 boards, so yeah definitely interested.

 

[AlanJ]

Wow, massive soldering job on some of those boards.

 

[strobey]

Protos in red? Love it...

 

[Asiapinball]

Wow, massive soldering job on some of those boards.

Yes but there is a big difference between soldering 30 year old used boards and new ones.

 

[russdx1]

Just need one of these old through hole chip shooter machines, prob pick up for free on china fb market place

 

[Pop Bumper Pete]

If you do a sys11B motherboard, I will take one

 

[Arv]

Are these DumbAss boards from Pinside?

 

[Julian Hepworth]

I'd be interested in WPC boards

 

[Paul]

Are these DumbAss boards from Pinside?

Yup.

I have asked for permission to buy these from him, build them, and make them available only for people via this forum.
Now he may rather i didnt, which is fine. They are his boards, his re-design, and from the ones i currently have from him they are very high quality.

I will not do this without his blessing, and will only do this if it will not impact on the work that he is doing, and will not impact on his current userbase.

 

[PinballDaze]

Definitely interested

 

[Arv]

Yup.

I have asked for permission to buy these from him, build them, and make them available only for people via this forum.
Now he may rather i didnt, which is fine. They are his boards, his re-design, and from the ones i currently have from him they are very high quality.

I will not do this without his blessing, and will only do this if it will not impact on the work that he is doing, and will not impact on his current userbase.

Only reason i was asking as they get good reviews

 

[PinIB]

Definitely interested also.

 

[Calimori]

We have already talked on this topic. I am not sure if I want bare boards and have the pleasure of building them or pre-built but I am certainly interested. The quality of the DumbAss testing boards you helped me get are very good.

 

[M4carp]

Just seen DumbAss is doing his own ocd/Afterglow design as an option built in eventually to the WPC driver board and possibly system 11, looks like an external board will be first.
He thought the OCD version was too expensive for his taste.

 

[russdx1]

Just seen DumbAss is doing his own ocd/Afterglow design as an option built in eventually to the WPC driver board and possibly system 11, looks like an external board will be first.
He thought the OCD version was too expensive for his taste.

interesting design, no micro? Using caps or something to remove the flicker naturally?

 

[Calimori]

The boards appear very reasonably priced but once I order parts from my preferred source, things then add up.

 

[Calimori]

That sounded negative.
My issue is sourcing good parts at reasonable prices. In the end I buy it all from Mouser and win on quick delivery and no issue with customs etc.

 

[M4carp]

interesting design, no micro? Using caps or something to remove the flicker naturally?

Doesn’t seem to be much on that board!

From the man himself:

“It's a PWM (pulse width modulation) implementation. Essentially, LED dimming. The current popular product is too expensive for my taste. Plus, I love a challenge. This is the start of implementation of that challenge.

The pattern can be programmed. It's a pattern of ON or OFF. The algorithm only cares about if the (eventual) target is ON or OFF and it adjusts the brightness of the LED over time to reach the target. This is actually different from the simple string which implements a scheme more like GI (8x fixed brightness settings rather than changing brightness over time). I have tried a few different patterns to test the algorithm and it appears to be working. The software logic is contained entirely in the ISR (interrupt service routine). The pattern programming logic is performed outside the ISR.

The next step is to intercept the WPC signals and write the software that interprets the signals and assigns the ON or OFF state as a result of the input. The initial implementation will deal with the raw WPC signals. This will eventually target an integrated solution to the Power Driver board as an option. It is also possible to scan the output signals (J133-J135 and J136-J138) and use that information instead of the raw WPC signals.

Eventually, I'll consider doing something for System 11 (3-9 as well) for both GI (relay control) and lamp matrix (either raw signals as an integrated solution or output signals).

I honestly thought it would be harder. It was a pleasant surprise. The smoothness of the LED dimming (increase and decrease) is obvious in the video and (IMHO) produces a nice result.”

 

[Pick Holder]

Make Stern Whitestar boards !

Been looking for one for two years.

ALSO a little idea @Paul

Why not remove the HV components off the DMD WPC89 board, as most people use colour dmd or pin2dmd now?

Also - why are you doing the soldering work - cant the PCB makers do it for you ?

 

[Paul]

Also - why are you doing the soldering work - cant the PCB makers do it for you ?

I'm not producing the board. Would be my preference, however i dont have control over that unfortunately.

Why not remove the HV components off the DMD WPC89 board, as most people use colour dmd or pin2dmd now?

I think that can be done easilly. Board would be the same however just with HV missing. Obviously cheaper as less time/parts.

Make Stern Whitestar boards !

If only.... I have seen one or two around, however they are mucho expensive!

 

[Paul]

So just wanted to give a quick update on this.

Dumbass has officially agreed that he had no issues at all with me providing his boards built for the UK and "other associated catchment areas", which is awesome news!
It makes no sense (and i wouldnt want to step on his toes) to do them for the US (because of shipping and despatch/customs charges). Also he visits Aus once or twice a year (has family there), so he hapilly takes blank boards there to allow those in Aus to be able to make their own.

I have a bunch of components due to arrive today to allow me to start on my "prototype" Sys11 Board builds (So i can ensure that i get the BOM correct, all parts have the right pitch and everything works...). Then i will be looking to order a bunch of boards from him to keep as "stock". Components I can get to me from the US in 3-4 days from ordering.

Looking at the above, it seems people are most interested in :

Sys11
WPC
WPC95

These will take several weeks before they land (at best guess as He is just back off from hols and has a bunch of stuff to catch up on) - Plust i need to get BOM's put together for WPC89 and WPC95 Power driver boards, which i will be ordering to be able to also get an idea of time/costs etc

I have created a new poll at the start of this thread... I would like to (please) understand what people would be most/least interested in. No obligation at all - just to understand where the most "desirable" areas may be.
As they are hand made they wont be cheap, however there is a distinct lack of availability of some at present... Those that know Dumbass's designs know they are bulletproof and improved over the original boards. As an example, A Universal Sys11 board which will suit all Sys 11 Variants.

Thanks all for yout time - At the end of the day i just want to make quality stuff available to those that need it!

Cheers
Paul

 

[Calimori]

Pinsound boards means the wpc89 sound boards are now not so rare.
The dmd boards seem cheap so maybe not financially a good one to go up against

 

[Nutty]

This is great @Paul , I am after a System 11 and DAC for Big Guns and a WPC DMD controller with no HV . The carriage for 1 from the US was quite high so put me off a bit. Have you thought of offering the Board and parts as a kit once you have the BOM sorted, I do not mind building it myself. I know this is something Dumbass does not do.

 

[Paul]

I am after a System 11 and DAC for Big Guns and a WPC DMD controller with no HV . The carriage for 1 from the US was quite high so put me off a bit. Have you thought of offering the Board and parts as a kit once you have the BOM sorted, I do not mind building it myself. I know this is something Dumbass does not do.

Being 2/3rds of the way through a System 11 board build i can see why he says this - only from personal experience (worth remembering here I'm a qualified Electronics engineer).

Let me quote him....

COMPLETE kits are simply too much work. The unique component counts are high. The individual component counts are high. If it's a "all-in-one" bag that's a lot of sorting that needs to be done prior to assembly. If the components are "cut-tape" that's probably fine but if the components are "bag" then they'll need to be separated.

These are some issues that immediately come to mind:

1. Identifying the different components.
2. Understanding supplied components that differ from documented components but are compatible.
3. Dealing with incorrect counts or incorrectly installed components (mistakes).

Identifying the different components

I would assume anyone interested in a kit would know the difference between a resistor and a capacitor.

• Resistors are relatively easy to differentiate. Use the color coding or get out a multimeter and measure.
• Capacitors can be differentiated but different manufacturers label them differently - although most do use an encoding scheme.
• Diodes have different packaging and some have tiny markings that are difficult to read without bright light or a magnifying glass.

Understanding supplied components that differ from documented components but are compatible

This one is the one that will generate the most questions. I will use capacitors as an example as this is where the issues will arise. The specification may be for a 470pF 20% ceramic capacitor. In the encoding scheme used that is 471M. This is 47 * 10^1 for value and M=20% tolerance. Other tolerances are available. J=5%, K=10% and Z=-80%/+20%. A lower tolerance is acceptable as a substitute. So for the specification of 471M it is also possible to use 471K or 471J. I buy components based on price. If 471J is cheaper than 471K I will buy a 471J. Therefore if I supply you with a 471J and the BOM says 471M it could generate a question because the component does not match. I routinely buy compatible but different components in this manner. I have used 223K in place of 223M. I bought 1000x 102J whereas the boards they are installed on specify 102K and 102M. Why would I bother getting both 102K and 102M when 102J will work with both?

Then there's a question I remember Chris (Hibler) asking. It relates to a 22pF 20% capacitor. The board and BOM are labeled 220M. 22 * 10^0 for value and M=20% for tolerance. Kemet brand capacitors are labeled 220M. The Vishay brand capacitors I bought are labeled 22J/A1. So Vishay uses a different labeling scheme (omitting the exponent if it is 0) which can cause confusion. Unless you've seen enough labeling from different manufacturers this is just not obvious and it will generate a question.

Dealing with incorrect counts or incorrectly installed components (mistakes)

So what happens if I make a mistake and send an incorrect count. BOM specifies 49x 470 Ohm resistors but I only include 48x resistors. Great. I missed one. Do I send another one - i.e. spend $0.50 postage for a $0.01 part? I could include an extra one to account for this but including an extra one adds up pretty quickly - not to mention it's wasteful.

What happens when a component is incorrectly installed? Perhaps a polarized component (such as a diode) installed backward. Easy mistake. I've done it before. Now what? Do I send another one - i.e. spend $0.50 postage for a $0.01 part?

And to add to the above, What happens when someone builds it, and (hopefully this doesnt happen) it doesnt work?

To demonstrate... This system 11 board has around 600 components on it. Thats excluding any "add-on" boards (DAC's, One shot boards etc). I have created my own ordering lists (which took a day for each larger board as an example), and I'm currently going through and verifying those as i build my prototype boards. Some components are cheaper if i buy 10 than if i buy 5... it's just the way it is.
If the supply of one of those components is unavailable (and believe me, they go "unavailable" often, usually for months on end!), i have to check and make sure that there is an available replacement that is compatible).
Also, If i order a kit from say Mouser or Digikey (it's pointless ordering from RS or CPC in the UK as they just dont have the stock range), would i need to check their parts are all correct and with the right quantities before i send them out?? In my view i would, as that person would be buying a "kit of all parts for that board" - not just most of them.

Here's what i have left packaging-wise from around 3/4's of the build for one Sys11 board so far....



So - i completely get why he doesnt do a kit. It's entirely possible on much smaller boards with a limited number of parts... on anything over maybe 30 or 40 components it's just not really practical...

 

[AlanJ]

^ I had the same issue on a much smaller scale for my clock kits, lamp driver tester board kits and currently going through it all again with the SDB tester kits I'm putting together. it just about works for me because I have a smaller set of parts, but it is still a lot of work to get everything ordered and made up into kits. Just counted : 170 separate parts in each kit! I'm making up 30 kits so that is 5,100 parts I have to order, check, count out & bag up.

 

[Paul]

Been a bit busy the last week....



PIA's have arrived, however awaiting on my PIA tester to arrive (Ironically!) before they go anywhere near this board... I intend to test the PIA's and SRAM to make sure all known good parts. Then will need to give it a quick once-over and make sure all is good, plug in the additional modules (Oneshot/DAC/Diags) and then should be ready for a test run to see if it all works!

Time taken to build so far... 8 1/4 hours... thats after de-bagging everything, sorting into the right piles etc..