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Job Contracts in the age of Coronavirus

Rob zombie

Rob zombie

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So as some of you will know, I got made redundant back in January. I’ve been doing some quite lucrative contracting work since then, but luckily I’m in a position where I don’t have to work at all for the next couple of years. But still, it’s easier to get a mortgage when you’re employed so I thought I might as well go that route. Got offered a job last week, fully remote, decent pay...not many perks other than that I must say. And then I began to delve into the job contract clauses....

Like what the hell? Clauses for layoffs and reduced hours where the business is struggling?! So effectively I could be forced to be employed without pay for an indefinite and unlimited amount of time. Looking into the legal aspects of this it would mean I couldn’t even apply for statutory redundancy for at least 13 weeks during that. It seems like a great way to avoid constructive dismissal. How is that even legal in this country?? It’s insane. I have never seen anything like this in a job contract before...and yes I have told them to remove it or forget it. There’s also no Death in Service payout, which is highly unusual.

Is this the new normal? Is this what we can expect from now on?
 
Thank goodness you read the thing.

I do wonder how many will just sign whatever is shoved under their noses and consider themselves lucky.

I had a zoom call with a few people at West Ham today and the conversation drifted the the nearby Westfield shopping mall. In short it's a complete mess and highly unlikely to survive the Covid recession. Crazy times ahead for so many.
 
At least two people I used to work with are working there now, and the recruiter says nobody has ever really questioned the contract. It’s the worst contract I’ve ever seen in 25 years. It’s all the more confusing because I got a really good vibe from the founders and they said all the right things. So maybe just an over zealous contract lawyer. But **** me there’s no way I’m signing that.
 
Working indefinitely for no pay sounds completely unreasonable/unusual; on what basis can you terminate employment? If you qualify for statutory redundancy, aren't there two triggers based on either consecutive weeks of unemployment or non consecutive weeks in a 13 week period? Maybe it's the latter you've picked up on.
 
I chuckle at folks who think constructive dismissal is some sort of master crime with huge consequences.

On the other points - suppose they have those hard times and look at the wage bill - can’t pay it so shutdown - no business and you don’t get paid anyway.
 
Sounds like a pretty standard contract, lay-off and reduced hours have been in standard employment contracts for many years now. As Neil states above if the business hits hard times and goes bust you don’t get paid! Death in service payout is not commonplace either. Usually only available in public sector jobs, rare in the private sector.
 
It’s certainly not something I’ve ever seen in a contract before....and I’ve checked it against previous contracts. Being laid off doesn’t just apply to cases where the business is struggling financially, it also applies to scenarios in which the business is quiet and has no work for you. This is the dangerous aspect, especially in a project based business. The company could still be raking it in but they have no work for you to do for a few months so they can reduce your hours and pay. It’s not much different to a zero hours contract.
 
Neil McRae said:
I chuckle at folks who think constructive dismissal is some sort of master crime with huge consequences.

On the other points - suppose they have those hard times and look at the wage bill - can’t pay it so shutdown - no business and you don’t get paid anyway.
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Neil I could tell you stories about constructive dismissal that would make you wince. The most devious one I know of is ‘major corporation wants rid of expensive senior staff member (they can’t sack him because his work etc is fine) so they offer him a transfer to their US office with irresistible pay package. He sells his house and moves his family over. 3 months later he’s out of a job. Didn’t read the contract and didn’t realise he now had a probationary period in the new job’. Constructive dismissal happens.
 
My misses got made redundant in Feb just before all this kicked off (she is/was a learning and Development manager who got made redundant due to a higher management restructure where a whole layer was just wiped out).
15+ ‘final interviews’ and still hasn’t crossed the finish line in first place. Wouldn’t be a problem, but she is bloody good at what she does - Is also interesting to see that there are jobs out there, however most seem to be wanting high level jobs at a pittance...
 
I’ve heard that bull**** so many times - no major company wants to get rid of an expensive staff member just because he is expensive. Whoever thinks that is deluded, they want to get rid of that person because he is a cnut.
 
Neil McRae said:
I’ve heard that bull**** so many times - no major company wants to get rid of an expensive staff member just because he is expensive. Whoever thinks that is deluded, they want to get rid of that person because he is a cnut.
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Haha yes exactly that. Although having said that...the same major corporation has also recently got rid of all its major players in Europe in various ways in order to shift the power and decision making over to the US.
 
Neil McRae said:
I’ve heard that bull**** so many times - no major company wants to get rid of an expensive staff member just because he is expensive. Whoever thinks that is deluded, they want to get rid of that person because he is a cnut.
Click to expand...

What about all the other highly paid people in that position being machiavellian cnuts who are just trying to protect their own slice of the ever decreasing pie?

I know of directors during this lockdown who made the decision to go back on full pay (80% -> 100% of 200k+ salaries) rather than protect people from redundancy.
 
Good luck with your job hunt / contract negotiations.

I suspect a lot of what people are used to will depend on the size of company they work for. I don’t think I ever had any form of contract for a job until 2001. Spent the best part of 10 years with a business with absolutely no legal safety net. When the **** hit the fan a couple of years after I left the boss just ****ed off back to Japan leaving the remaining people in the U.K. utterly high and dry. No official sick pay, no official holidays. Pretty certain my boss didn’t even know my surname. Extremely cash based business where you would often be walking around with 20 grand plus in notes. If there was an dispute at work you’d be gone by the end of the day.

In hindsight it was crazy but great fun at the time. Everytime I now have to teach HR/employment law at school I double check the text books but as of yet I’m still waiting to discover the section on the etiquette to get local hookers to stop holding your boss hostage 🤣 (A more frequent occurrence than you would expect)

Not getting death in service etc sucks but I’d suspect it’s far from unusual.

Hope you can get them to shift on some of the clauses.
 
stumblor said:
What about all the other highly paid people in that position being machiavellian cnuts who are just trying to protect their own slice of the ever decreasing pie?

I know of directors during this lockdown who made the decision to go back on full pay (80% -> 100% of 200k+ salaries) rather than protect people from redundancy.
Click to expand...

human nature Dave I'm afraid, protect yourself first.

but honestly why wouldn't they?

There are always stupid people making bad decisions at companies.

but I don't see why anyone should have to take a cut unless they are unable to work or be productive. so on a 200K salary - they'd be paid 160, so freeing up 40K a year. So maybe saving one member of staff?

I think if you are only laying one member of staff off you are either a two man band or you are kidding yourselves on that it will make a difference.


Neil.
 
Rob zombie said:
Haha yes exactly that. Although having said that...the same major corporation has also recently got rid of all its major players in Europe in various ways in order to shift the power and decision making over to the US.
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If they are a major company based in the US why wouldn't they? EU regulation and job laws make us widely less competitive when in the US they can hand someone a good bye at any whim. Not saying the US model is right btw. And we aren't as bad as some countries like Italy where its literally impossible to lay anybody off.
 
Got it all sorted anyway. They removed every clause I asked to be removed. It certainly pays to read your contract carefully and make sure anything punitive is removed. No sense in signing up to a full time permanent role that leaves you worse off than contracting.
 
they know that for three years they can get rid of you for pretty much any reason anyway!
 
Neil McRae said:
they know that for three years they can get rid of you for pretty much any reason anyway!
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Not concerned about that. Being retained on no pay or furloughed would be a much bigger problem for me. But as I say, that's sorted now.
 
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Personally I have been self employed since I was 17 years old, well - tell a lie - I did work PAYE for 3 years in that time. So truthfully I have not been layed off or paid for time off etc.

I think if you are in the financial situation that you do not have to work then why not just do it and have some income. You can always look for other work whilst working for them and if you need to - drop them. No contract can be one sided. You need to give them the same loyalty they give you. If you can not get money for being made redundant - is this a biggy when you said yourself - you do not need to work for 2 years.

On the other hand - some companies are better than others. Have you checked websites to see what ex-employes think of them?

@Rob zombie - I have no idea what work you do, so can not make accurate comments. But surely work on these terms is better than no work?

Just throwing this in...... another opinion.

Also as previously mentioned - companies have 3 years to get rid of you for pretty well any reason.....

I suspect that in 2020 someone will take your place.

Best of luck in whatever you decide - I honeslty wish you all the best but just throwing in another side to the discussion.

Have you considered going self employed and working as a consultant on that bassis ?
 
Once I buy this house I won't be in the position of not having to work for 2 years I can assure you. Fortunately my industry benefited from everyone being stuck at home and I don't think a single company furloughed anyone. Being furloughed or retained would be massively inconvenient when there are loads of contracting jobs available. In that situation I'd rather just cut ties and walk away. Its not that simple when NDA's and non-compete clauses are in place. The worry is more about how companies are able to take advantage of furloughing staff in the future during 'quiet periods'. This has set a precedent now and it may be something to get used to. We're already seeing ruthless companies trying to get away with paying out redundancy at furloughed rate instead of true salary rate.
 
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