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Paul said:
That list is NOT all-encompassing. Never has been as ALL eventualities could never be covered. They dont mention about a lot of things - that doesnt mean those actions are acceptable in everyday society.

Every time someone gets an infringement we'll add it to the list then. If we want an enviroment where everyone is treated like a 2 year old then by all means, i can do that. If anyone complains I'll point them your way and say it was your idea... awesome...
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This was more aimed at the admins message to Colin saying they dont know how long a ban will but in a comment on another thread stated how many points they decided to give, which was 50, and its quite clearly stated on that page that 50 points = 6 month Ban.

I stand by my original comment that admins should not be giving out an arbitrary amount of points for an infraction that is not listed if they are not aware of the length of Ban that they would cause on their own when it is clearly stated in the original post when points were introduced.
 
While I agree there can't be one rule for one and one for another as it may turn into some kind of popularity contest. Is there any scope for one rule for someone who is regretful and apologetic and someone who isn't? Obviously if someone says they are regretful and then repeats the same actions it's not taken into consideration the second time.
 
Wayne J said:
When was the last time you saw or heard something in person that you thought was out of order, but didn't challenge it, or even worse laughed along? That's part of the problem, by actively ignoring it you're helping perpetuate it.
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I totally agree with Wayne's post and it makes a lot of good points. I have had conversions with a few people over the years about their use of inappropriate language, but sometime a quiet word is enough to steer them in the right direction. Totally agree actively ignoring is also wrong.
 
Some wise words said by @Paul @mufcmufc @Lecari and @Wayne J

Can't leave things unchallenged when dealing with outdated views and wording...

A forum like this should be inclusive and protect all members....

What one person finds ok could really be hurtful to another, doesn't matter if that person doesn't mean it...

Everyone is entitled to be safe no matter their faith, race, or sexuality... If you're not ok with this you shouldn't really be on this forum!
 
My turn as an Admin to show I stand with the other Admins.

As mentioned, we discussed this a lot yesterday, we considered it from different angles and even many of the things people have raised here.
In a situation like this, we realise we have agreed to take an action and need to take it irrelevant of how others will view it, and take it quickly. Action needed to be taken without fear or favour.
People will raise; Colin is a great guy, are these racist comments, was anyone hurt, was it an attempt at humour, was he sorry? We went through all of this, as best as humans can.

Society needs to stop using these derogatory words and let them die out.
 
I can't recall how long the post was up for nor how many people viewed it and found it offensive or even how hurt they were if they did manage to view it at all.

I will hazard a guess that they won't be hurting as much as Col is after being denied access to here for so long a time.
 
AlanJ said:
Honestly, I'd have a vote on the forum, how long should he be banned for? Let the forum decide.
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Whilst I can understand the ban, and personally think the 6 months is too long, the one thing I'm very certain about is that you can't put it to a vote and "let the forum decide", otherwise these type of issues will end up being decided in the manner of a popularity contest.

The issue is in the hands of the moderators, where it should be.
 
It definitely should be in the hands of the moderators, if we don't like the results we can go elsewhere. Neil has a site, although it doesn't have many posts.

Collywobbles is a great guy and I'm sure he didn't mean it, however offensive language and out dated jokes should be rightly called out and if the moderators feels action should be taken then they have the right to do so.

If I had posted something that caused offence and was banned for 6 months there wouldn't be an outcry of unfairness or calls to have my account reinstated.

It's a tough job moderating a site, rules are rules and unfortunately no matter the poster each account has to be treated equally. I would love Neil to come back on, but unfortunately he broke the rules too many times. If I had and got banned for ife no one would be calling for my account to be reactivated. Hence the moderator job of treating all accounts impartially no matter the popularity of the poster.
 
C&C said:
Whilst I can understand the ban, and personally think the 6 months is too long, the one thing I'm very certain about is that you can't put it to a vote and "let the forum decide", otherwise these type of issues will end up being decided in the manner of a popularity contest.

The issue is in the hands of the moderators, where it should be.
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I really don’t agree. There are enough comments already that support the view that the ban is too long, so why not put it to the forum members to vote?

I do feel the response from moderators in this matter is draconian.
 
@cmrl9

Why would you think that nobody would be defending you in the same way as Col?

I don't know Col and I have no favouritism due to him making things etc.
I just think it is a harsh penalty and I still would if it were you.
 
AlanJ said:
I really don’t agree. There are enough comments already that support the view that the ban is too long, so why not put it to the forum members to vote?

I do feel the response from moderators in this matter is draconian.
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The site T&C's which we've all agreed to (and which I've now read thanks to being pointed to them - thanks @Paul ), are pretty clear on this. Whilst I also agree that the ban is too long (in my opinion), and something like 4 weeks would have been sufficient, this is just my opinion, much like you also think it's draconian, and your opinion is that it should be voted on (which I disagree with).

The bottom line, however, is that the rules are what they are, and they clearly state:

In the area of enforcement of the rules, the Pinballinfo Team are judge, jury, and executioner. Their decisions are not open for debate, and this is not a democracy. The moderators/admins are NOT to be mocked, ridiculed, called out on or questioned in the public discussion forums. Our moderation (in general) is NOT up for public discussion or to be questioned either. If you have issues with any member of the Pinballinfo Team, take it up in an email or PM.
 
Triple H said:
@cmrl9

Why would you think that nobody would be defending you in the same way as Col?

I don't know Col and I have no favouritism due to him making things etc.
I just think it is a harsh penalty and I still would if it were you.
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Thanks appreciated, but the reality is no one or hardly any would notice 🤣

I personally think the length of the ban is a bit harsh and also think Neil shouldn't have a lifetime ban, however it's up to the moderators, it's a tough job, by the sounds of the posts they have debated this fairly and for a while and came to a decision which we should respect.
 
C&C said:
In the area of enforcement of the rules, the Pinballinfo Team are judge, jury, and executioner. Their decisions are not open for debate, and this is not a democracy. The moderators/admins are NOT to be mocked, ridiculed, called out on or questioned in the public discussion forums. Our moderation (in general) is NOT up for public discussion or to be questioned either. If you have issues with any member of the Pinballinfo Team, take it up in an email or PM.
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Without wanting to get banned myself, this has a very 'North Korean/Russian' whiff about it 😄.

Authority should be challenged when there is a perceived injustice. They are human and make mistakes just like the rest us. They don't have to change their minds but should at least be aware of our opinions.

As for the rules, there's no reason rules can't be reviewed and changed for the benefit of the site and its members.

Having said all that I do really appreciate Paul and the other moderators, just feels like they have made a mistake with the 6 month ban.
 
Hi all

I posted something similar on a whatsapp group this morning – today has been a very difficult day, but I wanted to just add my perspective.

I’m British Chinese – I was born in London and have lived here basically my whole life. Growing up here as a Chinese child was at times very unpleasant; being called a “ch*nk” or “ch*nky” and having “ching-chong” noises made at me countless times. I hope everyone can understand how crap that might feel, getting discriminated against simply by how you look and the colour of your skin and not through anything you may have done. Thankfully things have improved significantly but there's still plenty of work to do.

Everyone can help. For example, please don't call Chinese restaurants a "ch*nky" and please help correct others who do - I understand this and words like these may have been commonplace in the past but they are still unpleasant and derogatory terms even if absolutely no offence is intended. If you overhear or are present when someone is using any kind of racial slurs, or outdated racial language (intentional or not) – please do say something. Only in that way do things start to change.

For what’s it’s worth, I don’t think there was any malice or ill-intent at all in the words that were used - it was more ignorance and naivety, but the language used was clearly racist and unacceptable as the moderators have said. How this has all panned out is very unfortunate, but action absolutely did need to be taken.

I’ve been playing pinball for 3 or 4 years now. One of the things I love about it is that everyone is treated equally – everyone from all backgrounds, genders, ages, countries etc can play or compete together and just have fun with it. It’s been a really welcoming and wonderful community and I count many of you all as good friends.

Please let’s all work together to keep it that way.
 
Mednec said:
I am a lurker and rarely post but I saw Cols post yesterday before it was removed and Col used the words P*k* and Ch***i.

The term “P*k*” has been a subject of controversy and debate, with varying opinions on whether it is racist. While some argue that it is a derogatory racial slur, others contend that its meaning and intent can differ based on context and cultural understanding and that this outrage is another example of creeping pollical correctness.
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Those two words are vile racial slurs in the UK. The post needed removing and action taken. This isn’t complex…

mufcmufc said:
I’m happy to take ownership of this. I ultimately decided that racism was more point worthy than a major personal attack as it wasn’t specifically covered in our points system. It was my decision discussed with the other mods. I’ve included the screenshot below the message that I sent to Colin:

I guess I was naive to think it might end the matter.
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Like others, I’m uneasy about the 6-month ban for what sounds like a ‘first offence’ non-personal-attack. The pinball community has a relatively high proportion of non-university-educated boomers compared to other geeky communities, and - thus - there’s a high likelihood of forum users naively blundering into words that were commonplace back in their day, but are now (rightly) accepted to be highly derogatory and hurtful.

With that in mind, you can’t moderate like the Oberlin College Women’s Committee without creating a climate of fear among people scared of getting a six-month ban for saying the ‘wrong thing’ (including some who are just socially anxious), and I’d have handled with more ‘calling in’ and less punitive punishment. In Col’s case, I’d have given him a four-week ban - time to reflect, but not to f**k off entirely - and a firm, but gentle, talking with.

Most people are embarrassed, and apologetic, if they’ve inadvertently hurt others, and keen to avoid doing the same in future.
 
VeeMonroe said:
Those two words are vile racial slurs in the UK. The post needed removing and action taken. This isn’t complex…



Like others, I’m uneasy about the 6-month ban for what sounds like a ‘first offence’ non-personal-attack. The pinball community has a relatively high proportion of non-university-educated boomers compared to other geeky communities, and - thus - there’s a high likelihood of forum users naively blundering into words that were commonplace back in their day, but are now (rightly) accepted to be highly derogatory and hurtful.

With that in mind, you can’t moderate like the Oberlin College Women’s Committee without creating a climate of fear among people scared of getting a six-month ban for saying the ‘wrong thing’ (including some who are just socially anxious), and I’d have handled with more ‘calling in’ and less punitive punishment. In Col’s case, I’d have given him a four-week ban - time to reflect, but not to f**k off entirely - and a firm, but gentle, talking with.

Most people are embarrassed, and apologetic, if they’ve inadvertently hurt others, and keen to avoid doing the same in future.
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"Non university educated boomers"

This is pretty offensive and nasty comment you added in there.


I did not go to University and many people didn't yet are really smart. This just makes you seem really ignorant and condescending.
 
Dracoola said:
"Non university educated boomers"

This is pretty offensive and nasty comment you added in there.


I did not go to University and many people didn't yet are really smart. This just makes you seem really ignorant and condescending.
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That's not what I meant. There's a theory by a guy called Rob Henderson (I think) that universities are a way of educating people in ways of thinking possessed by cultural elites - allowing those elites to gatekeep, via language, who is a part without the 'vulgarity' of displays of wealth/brand labels, etc. This isn't always a compliment to those institutions, but - in general - cultural elites do determine (for better or worse) what language and ways of thinking are now socially acceptable.

And this is about social acceptability because - sadly, in the past - it was commonplace for people to be openly racist.

There's no correlation between using racist remarks and being stupid, and I don't know why you'd think that. Alt-right racists in America, for example, are very smart, well-educated people - they're just... wrong.

Either way, in the UK, going to university usually means you leave home, which usually shakes up your social circle, meaning you're more likely to encounter a wider range of people - and some of them will get upset if you use outdated racist language. It's better I believe that, surely, than I assume Col knew that the language was hurtful, has been told a bunch of times, but decided to press on anyway because he's a total ass.
 
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Marvello said:
Do we need to call her out, or call her in?
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Ignore, I've decided I'm a troll, bigot, racist and a thicko and happy to go back to playing with my shiny balls in my man cave letting out the occasional grunt, let's all get back to pinball any one got a avengers topper they might want to depart with 😁
 
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