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Fish Tales - Trough Ball 2 Switch Issue - Keeps triggering on vibrations

s000m

s000m

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Apr 12, 2021
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Swindon
Hi all,

This ones bothering me and I can't get it to stay resolved.

The Mirco playfield dimples didn't line up for the trough area so I had to do some guess work on where best to locate the switch plate.

When pressing the right flipper repeatidly I sometimes get a flicker on switch edge test. The Arm has been adjusted to go up higher so it gets pressed down further, the location of the switch plate has also beeen moved about to try and accomodate for the presumed vibration issue but still no dice.

Initially I switched out the Ball 2 and 3 Switches (replaced Trough Ball 3 switch while I was at it as both were original it looks.)
Ordered the following switches:

5647-09957-00
www.pinball.co.uk

Trough microswitch 5647-09957-00 - Pinball Heaven

Trough microswitch 5647-09957-00 Used in “3 ball” troughs as switches “left” and “centre”.
www.pinball.co.uk www.pinball.co.uk

I can observe the lever being fully pressed down when a ball occupies it above. I'm stumped on how to resolve this.

During gameplay the game as a result will get confused, during typically ball save as it thinks a ball has entered the trough area and fires out another ball (I'm presuming the switch flicker during presses from the flippers causes this).

With the trough arm/lever removed and with just my finger pushing down on the switch lever instead I also still get flickers on Ball switch 2/3.

I went into the backbox and checked the switch matrix wires, all seem to be correctly seated.

Trough Switch 1 doesn't have any issues when the flipper is pressed repeatidly. Only Ball 2 and 3 switches do it. The concern really is only on Ball Switch 2 as this will be the only switch out of the 2 pressed down during game play as its only a 3 ball game.
 
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Sounds like a vibration issue. Knock the switches etc with a screwdriver grip in switch test and wiggle the cables. Something is lose or not soldered correctly.
 
drhex said:
Sounds like a vibration issue. Knock the switches etc with a screwdriver grip in switch test and wiggle the cables. Something is lose or not soldered correctly.
Click to expand...
I think you could be right, touching the diode on the switch lug its not fully secure it has some wiggle to it!

Will report back later. work calls.
 
Change diode no change. I can't get the switch to trigger unless I use the right flipper and very occasionally the left.

It doesn't trigger on slingshots for instance.
 
Bridge the switch with a cable, see if that "fixes" it. That should isolate the fault to switch/mechanics or cabling. The flipper logic is separate from the switch matrix so can't see how that would make a difference.
 
Yeah it's got to be something like wiring or the MPU.

I've just engaged the switch with my finger less pressure than the ball would, then with the back of my screw driver bashed the switch repeatedly and it didn't flicker once.
 
Given the other through switches don't exhibit this issue it would have to be the row - close left standup target 1 (switch 27) and see if it does the same thing. Can you take a photo of the whole area incl the flipper? You haven't wrapped the row or column cable around the flipper somehow making contact or having induced spikes?
 
s000m said:
Yeah it's got to be something like wiring or the MPU.

I've just engaged the switch with my finger less pressure than the ball would, then with the back of my screw driver bashed the switch repeatedly and it didn't flicker once.
Click to expand...
Scratch that comment.

I took the plate holding the two switches and had the wife engage the flipper repeatidly while I watched the switch edge display test and it didn't flicker. It definitely only happens when its secure back onto the playfieeld.
 
drhex said:
Given the other through switches don't exhibit this issue it would have to be the row - close left standup target 1 (switch 27) and see if it does the same thing. Can you take a photo of the whole area incl the flipper? You haven't wrapped the row or column cable around the flipper somehow making contact or having induced spikes?
Click to expand...
Trough Ball switch 3 did/does it but far less. Trough Ball switch 1 doesn't do it at all. Its not great coincedance I think that these two switches are further away that ball switch 2.
 
drhex said:
Bridge the switch with a cable, see if that "fixes" it. That should isolate the fault to switch/mechanics or cabling. The flipper logic is separate from the switch matrix so can't see how that would make a difference.
Click to expand...
Will try this in a bit. Though at this time I'm back to thinking its vibration.
 
Ah damm is this diagram accurate in the manual?

It looks like the diode for switch ball 3 is supposed to be the other way around?

Ball Trough.png
 
Never mind the manual is wrong. I reversed it and opto reel 2 started activating when trough 3 was pressed. I switched out the diode this as well when I switched it back. Back to square 1
 
:-). Common thing is both failing switches being on the same mounting plate. Hitting them or the plate in direction of the flipper plunger doesn't produce the issue, correct? Bridge the switch I'd say. There could be a bit more solder on the lugs.
Just to exclude flipper coil interference: Removing the plate from the playfield stops this from happening while still in vicinity of the flipper coil? Are the snubbing diodes on the right flipper coil in place and OK?
 
OK so I tried the same test on The Addams Family, it behaves the same way. The only difference however between the two is that Fish Tales has a Ball Save option and The Addams Family does not. Still I would have though this issue would cause game ending issues in the code. Do these games have logic built in the code to ignore momentary flickers?

If so then, Its another reason all together why I get another ball thrown out during ball save.
 
drhex said:
:). Common thing is both failing switches being on the same mounting plate. Hitting them or the plate in direction of the flipper plunger doesn't produce the issue, correct? Bridge the switch I'd say. There could be a bit more solder on the lugs.
Just to exclude flipper coil interference: Removing the plate from the playfield stops this from happening while still in vicinity of the flipper coil? Are the snubbing diodes on the right flipper coil in place and OK?
Click to expand...
To confirm before I bridge the switch, which lugs do I bridge from and to?
 
No idea on the code. I find this very strange behaviour though. Can try on my TZ tonight if I see the same.
From the top with the cables soldered to the diode.
 
Ok bridged the switch as advised, hitting the flipper the switch no longer flickers.
 
drhex said:
There you go - switch therefore in one way or the other...
Click to expand...
I spoke to Col, his flippers cause a flicker on the switch too. However it's hard to guess how often his does it compared to mine.
 
So these are new switches with new 1n4007 diodes. I'm now not even sure the trough flickers are the issue here but what else could cause the second ball launch during ball save?
 
Never had a FT - what exactly is happening on yours? Can you try to play with through two bridges and see if the problem happens?
 
Looking at the soldering of the diode to the switch, I would not trust that solder joint. Solder should flow smoothly up and around the diode leg. That image looks like it not making good electrical contact.

I'm not sure whether the switch is new or original. If original, i would further suspect the internal contacts of the switch. Change switch if not already done so.
 
pinballmania said:
Looking at the soldering of the diode to the switch, I would not trust that solder joint. Solder should flow smoothly up and around the diode leg. That image looks like it not making good electrical contact.

I'm not sure whether the switch is new or original. If original, i would further suspect the internal contacts of the switch. Change switch if not already done so.
Click to expand...
Sure will amend. Its on a new switch and diode.
 
I would disconnect the switch that is causing issues and run your tests again, to see if it still triggers (all the switches are matrixed, so it could be a problem elsewhere in the matrix).
 
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