In Progress Dealer's Choice, Williams, EM

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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Today has been a good day, a very good day. I finally solved the issue with the "Coin S.U." Disc unit. In the end I didn't need to de-solder all the wires and take it out, it just needed some care and attention. I spent ages looking at this unit and fiddling with it. I also looked on the schematic and also a useful diagram of it in the Manual.

The manual helped as it showed be were the 'reset' position should be and so I knew where the reset coil should be turning the disc back to. It just wouldnt work, I messed with the main spring and also with the other springs on the unit (even though I knew these didn't come into play for the reset) - the two long springs were very weak and tired, so I replaced with the best alternative new springs I had anyway. This did have a good positive effect, the step up operation become much more smoother and works now very well.
IMG_9359.JPG

I still couldn't figure out why the reset was so weak, and I was just about to take the plunge and get the unit out, when I noticed the problem - it had been there all along staring me in the face as plain as day. In fact the problem had already been spotted by me, but in a different context, and, my poor brain hadn't been clever enough to put 2 and 2 together.

Here is a pic of the problem:
IMG_9360.PNG
Here is a pic of it sorted:
IMG_9358.JPG

That's was it - simples! - The switch arm was on the wrong side of the bar that is on the turning wheel. I suspect someone has meddled here trying to fix a problem and that they didn't correctly figure out what this switch is supposed to do and how it really works.

The switch is a normally closed switch and it should only open when this stepper unit steps to its last position, which is player 4. Once a 4 player game has been selected (by pressing the start/replay button 4 times) then this switch is supposed to open to stop you using up any more credits, until the current 4 player game is over (or the power is switched off).

It took me a while to correctly set the switch so that it opens only on that 4th player position. It had been badly bent as a result of being on the wrong side of the bar - the reset operation trying to bend it even further down than it was ever designed to go.

So now I can start a game correctly and consistently for any number of players and the game plays out just fine.

That's a massive result for me this week and I can now dedicate some real time and effort to figuring out this intermittent problem with the score motor cam switches not stopping in the right place. I just know this is going to take some real time and effort to get fixed. I plan to start with a full clean of all the switch contacts. I'll do a stack at a time and then test to see what happens.
 

astyy

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Nice one, I bet that feels good:thumbs:

Did you get any further sussing why the motor shaft won't couple with the camshaft? That looked really strange, do you think the motor shaft recessed somehow into the motor casing? Strange fault that.

Those rusty springs on your units can be polished back to tension by slipping them over a suitable sized philips screwdriver shaft and Dremelling with felt wheel (I'm banging on about the Dremel again:tut:)
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Nice one, I bet that feels good:thumbs:

Did you get any further sussing why the motor shaft won't couple with the camshaft? That looked really strange, do you think the motor shaft recessed somehow into the motor casing? Strange fault that.

Those rusty springs on your units can be polished back to tension by slipping them over a suitable sized philips screwdriver shaft and Dremelling with felt wheel (I'm banging on about the Dremel again:tut:)
Hi @astyy - No I never figured that motor out, I don't think it could have recessed into the motor casing. it may have done somehow, but you can't take the motor apart as it's sealed with brass rivets, so I couldn't get further into it to see. My fix is holding, but I don't like it - I never like things that are not as they were originally.

Do you work for Dremel btw? ;)
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Today has been a mixed bag. I've been testing the machine and I've still got this intermittent problem with the score motor system. Sometimes when it completes a cycle it is not quite in the right place when it stops, or rather should I say, one or more of the switches are not in the state they should be when it stops. The problem manifests iself in 3 ways so far:
1. Sometimes when I switch the machine on, there are credits available and yet pressing the 'start' button has no effect
2. If I manage to clock up the first player game start, sometimes the 2nd or 3rd or 4th player wont start up
3. If a ball goes out (trigger outhole switch), then the game doesn't detect it and does nothing

In all cases I can solve it, if I give the score motor cams a wiggle - usually this triggers the score motor to do another cycle (1/2 a revolution), sometimes I just hear a click and then everything will work. So it's for sure just one (or more) of these switches not closing properly. I did suspect that maybe it was happening only every 2nd cam revolution - i.e. a cycle is 180 degrees, so it has two cycles on the cam. I though maybe one was bad and the other good, but afteer testing this theory - I found it's not that - it can happen on either half of the cam wheel and it IS random, it works sometimes and then not other times.

Based on the 3 issues above - issues 1 and 2 are basically the same - failure to clock up a game. 3 is different - outhole circuit

I've cleaned the switches and tested, still no better, probably now need to be more selective and chase down the schematic to see which ones are in the "game start" circuit and also in the "outhole" circuit - that should lead me to the exact switches to adjust.

On a positive note, I have managed to get the 3 pop jet bumpers working. The trigger switches on two of them were very dirty, so a clean got them working, the other needed a clean and a bit of adjustment. Also 3 out of 4 flippers seem to be working - i.e. they fire and return to the start position. The 4th fires but is slow to return. Before the weekend, 3 out of 4 had this problem, but have loosened up. They all need a good cleanup though as, as usual, some bright spark has oiled them, they are all black and gunky!
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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So I've traced the circuits on the Schematic - the game start button (replay button as it's called on the schematic) goes through a switch on the Score motor - the index cam, and also so does the outhole switch - a different switch on the very same index cam of the score motor. I also noted that the score motor itself is also kept on by a third switch on the same index cam. So......my though is that either:

The cam is perhaps slipping out of alignment sometimes - the end of the cam shaft is connected to the motor shaft, and, I have already had to do some work to get those two connected....could it be that the connection I have made is sometimes causing the cam shaft to turn just a little too far? I have spent quite a bit of time observing this cam going round and round, and it does seem that occasionally there is a little bit of movement in the frame of the score motor unit as the motor turns, maybe something is catching and the bending motion of the frame could easily just be offsetting the cam shaft a tiny bit - enough to effect the timing so the motor switch is turning off too late?

OR
The switch that controls the motor circuit on the index cam is staying on a fraction too long. We are talking fractions of a second here, so will require a fine adjustment of the switch.

I've looked at both possibilities, firstly trying to see why the motor sometimes moves. I've discovered it's only held in with two long screws, there should be 3. They are not a std size, so I don't have a third. So only thing to try is moving one of the screws to the third hole to see if that secures the motor to the frame any better?

Secondly, I have cleaned the contacts on the switches on the index cam, and I've also tried to adjust the action of the motor switch.

In summary, I have improved the situation, but not eradicated it totally. It now appears to be happening less often, but it does still happen, and far too often to be acceptable. I will spend more time adjusting the switch setting. I thing it's wise to wait a bit as I am awaiting delivery of a tool that I hope will help me adjust the switches a lot easier.
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Still trying to eradicate the timing switch problem, but no luck. So, I've decided to ponder that for a while and move onto some other jobs.

I'll have a look at the underside of the playfield and let's test out those light sockets. The underside is very nice and clean:
IMG_9372.JPG

I feel a bit like Aladdin - new lamps for old:
IMG_9377.JPG
I've put in nice new LED's to all the underside playfield - even this is only a test, the bulbs are hard to replace as difficult to get my fat fingers into some of these tight spaces, so may as well put in the final bulbs now - normally I'd put in tested working incandescents as a quick test.

Anyhow - pleased to report that it looks like the majority of the bulb holders are good, most lights working, so a minor job to replace the non working ones.

I've also just received this in the post all the way from USA:
IMG_9376.JPG
These are stand up targets which exactly match the ones in this machine. I've got several broken ones, so I'm really pleased I managed to find these. They worked out at £2.15 each including postage etc from USA. A brand new stand up target in UK is £6-7, and they are not an exact match.

I may just have time today to fit them, although I've lots on today as I'm off to TPF tomorrow!!! YEY!!
 

GTB Buckaroo

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[QUOTE="I'll have a go at stabilising the backglass, but I must admit to being tempted by bgresto - I've emailed them for a quote.[/QUOTE]

Or: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Pinball-Machine-Backglasses/183097465252?_trkparms=pageci:66a39600-2794-11e8-8c64-74dbd180a2ea|parentrq:24ec6b251620a86046ab3173fffa7c79|iid:1&_trksid=p2481888.c100678.m3607

By all accounts, my spies tell me that he just needs a scan copy of both sides of the glass. Might be worth a punt. I do suggest you read his feedback carefully.
 
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AlanJ

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Interesting, does anybody on here know Ebay seller "deals-are-me" or seen examples of his repro backglasses?
he’s the guy who was selling that EM machine on ebay recently that was owned by rick parfitt of status quo. was it called high dolly if i recall? i enquired about it and spoke to the seller. andy backhouse. he told me he’d spent 150 hours redoing the backglass and it was unique. only one in the world. but then i saw that bgresto in usa had recently also done that backglass !!!! that made me wonder to be honest


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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Well a hectic two weeks of no pinball progress, but I have good excuses - a trip to the Texas Pinball Festival, a couple of days in between then a week's cruising around the Caribbean Islands. I came home today to a few packages containing parts for the machine, so will be back on it later this week.
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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So new parts and tools:

Firstly, a few tins of Krylon Triple thick for the back glass - expensive stuff as imported from USA. I think I will have a spare can or two probably left over if anyone wants to buy one:
IMG_9764.JPG

I'm not happy with the operation of the existing score motor, so got a 2nd hand one to fit:
IMG_9765.JPG

Flipper Coils:
IMG_9767.JPG


Got a couple of 9/16 & 5/8" Wrenches to do legs:
IMG_9766.JPG
One is a flex head and other is a ratchet type. Both are far better than a plain old spanner.

I also bought a proper leaf adjusting tool (not pictured).

Should be busy for a while now............
 
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carl lawrence

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hi. i bought it in the USA. i bought a few to make it worthwhile on the silly postage costs


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You did well !
There was a arts and craft company in the U.K. about 5years ago on eBay ,but they don't do it now ,still half a can left myself !
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Finally got around to doing a bit of work on this - I have been laid up with a rotten cold for last two days and just not felt like doing anything. Anyhow I came round a bit this evening, so I've tackled the broken drop targets and replaced with the identical 2nd hand ones I got from ebay USA. All tested out and working fine.

(I did however note a new problem - once all the 10,J,Q,K,Ace targets are activated, these are supposed to reset - there is a huge reset coil (running 115v) that resets a bank of latched relays, one for each of the targets 10,J,Q,K,A - it's struggling to reset them all - the score motor keep rotating as it tries and tries. eventually it stops - but often it doesn't actually reset all 5 of the relays. The problem seems to be that the time the coil activates is very small - this may need an adjustment on the score reel switch that activates it. Or it could be that the switches on the bank of relays are opening too soon to signify that they have reset, or it could be mechanical - the reset bank has a large bar that maybe needs adjusting - or maybe the coil needs a rebuild. Anyhow - I've added this to the 'TO DO' list.

I then decided to test out the new score motor I bought (again ebay USA purchase) - I wired up this second score motor in parallel with the original and ran a few test. I was surprised to see that this new one rotates about 20% faster than the current one. I was expecting this to be the reverse. My thinking was that the original is a 50hz motor, and the 'new' one is from USA so will be 60hz. Running a 60hz motor on a UK 50hz AC supply should result in a 20% reduction is speed? But I got exactly the opposite.

My second thinking then was that the one in the machine is a 60hz and the 'new' one from USA is a 50hz - but I just don't believe that at all; however, it's a possibility that I cannot rule out 100% at this stage.

What else could it be? I compared the two motor units and it looks like the gearing is different, so this is the most likely cause - I could swap the motor units around but that's a lot of faff, for no real gain to me.

I also compared the cam's on both units - unfortunately for me, the notches are different between to two units, so it looks like if I want to use the 'new' unit, I'm going to have to replace some of it's cams with ones from the 'old' unit. I'd happily proceed with that if they were both running at the same speed - but my concern is that the faster speed may cause problems with the game - e.g. relays and coils (especially) may not have enough time to activate properly as the faster speed will result in faster on/off switching.

I DO have another alternative - and that is a third score motor unit that I bought last week from ebay UK - it is due to arrive soon, so I may as well hold fire and see if this third unit offers a better solution.

It's amazing how time flies when you have your head in a pinball machine. I thought I'd spent about an hour on this - but somehow 3 hours have flown by......... Feeling tired again, so more paracetamol and another early night!
 

Neil McRae

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I’d expect them both to be made for 60Hz Alan thus both being the same difference in speed? Could it also be that the one in the machine needs maintenance - hence slower?
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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Tried to go to sleep - my cold is telling me to sleep, my jet-lag is telling me it's time to be awake. So, back to the machine:

Quick pic of the broken targets:
They simply fell apart - the rivets have just failed and the switch stack has dropped apart.
IMG_9782.JPG IMG_9783.JPG

Here is the reset bank mechanism and the huge coil that powers it. This is not resetting consistently, if at all:
IMG_9785.JPG IMG_9786.JPG
two reset banks: one for the 1-9 rollover buttons (bottom) and the other for the 10,J,Q,K,Ace targets (top)

IMG_9787.JPG
Huge coil - 115V - The plunger seems quite loose in the (metal) sleeve, I wonder what size that sleeve is?

IMG_9788.JPG
3 switches on each relay in these banks. 1 Will control the light, one will stop the relay firing a second time once it has been latched on and the 3rd will be used in the reset circuit. The reset circuit wires all 5 relay's reset switches in series. The issue with this is that if any one of the relays resets, but some or all of the others don't, the system will assume they have all reset - and this is exactly the problem I am getting. So, this suggests a mechanical issue as the reset metal bar should reset all 5 relays at exactly the same time. I'll devise some sort of temporary mechanical adjustment tomorrow.


Here is the rig-up of both the score motors:
IMG_9784.JPG
It was strange that the 'new' one - bottom of pic was running faster than the old one. I counted the turns and the new one would do 6 revolutions for every 5 revolutions of the old one. I was then thinking 60hz versus 50hz - but this should mean the bottom one running slower, not faster.

So, did some internet research - the part number for USA version is 14A-7883 - 60hz, 27V, 32 RPM
the UK version is part number 14A-7884 - 50hz, 27v 32 RPM

So I decided to look at the part numbers on these two:
The new one is a USA part - 14A-7883 - it shows this on a label on the score motor unit and also shows 7883 stamped into the actual motor housing:
IMG_9790.JPG IMG_9789.JPG

I then took apart the existing score motor an examined the current one: The label is correct:
IMG_9794.JPG
BUT the code on the actual motor is not 7884, it is 1960 ? :
IMG_9793.JPG
Also, note the RPM in incorrect 22 instead of 32 RPM

So, THIS COMFIRMS a suspicion I had a couple of weeks ago - that the wrong motor was installed into the score motor unit. That explains why it wasn't making contact to the cam shaft, and why I had to invent a way to connect the two.

Whilst I was testing I found out that the 'new' unit performed 6 cycles to every 5 cycles of the current unit. This now makes sense:

Current unit running at 22 RPM and is a 50hz motor.
New unit running at 32RPM - but is a 60hz motor, so on 50hz it will run at 32 X 50/60 = 26.67 RPM

new unit : 26.67 / 6 turns = 4.4444
old unit: 22 / 5 turns = 4.4

I.e. this explains why the new does 6 turns for every 5 of the old.

Anyhow - I now need to try think whether the slower speed 22RPM instead of 32RPM is a possible cause of some of the issues I am having - e.g. the unit not stopping exactly on the Index unit? My logic says that if the cam is turning slower, the switches in a single stack could well be activated at slightly different times, when they should be activated at the same time. By speeding up the motor RPM, any time delay will be reduced. Hmm, it's worth a try.

I'm going to wait until tomorrow and see if the third unit arrives and check what motor IT has. If it doesn't arrive, I'll swap these two motors over and see what happens.
 
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Neil McRae

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That’s amazing work Alan. I’d never have thought they would make it like that but thinking about it - it makes sense given at the time pinball would still be banned in the US.


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AlanJ

AlanJ

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It's something I never really thought about, but in most EM games there is some sort of score motor - which has in it, no surprise, an AC motor. Motors are designed to run at a specific Voltage and specific AC frequency - 60Hz USA or 50Hz UK. What this implies is that any imported USA EM machine, is likely to have a score motor that is running 5/6th slower than it should. That MAY cause game timing issues, but I feel this is probably unlikely. WHAT IS MORE OF AN ISSUE, is that running a motor designed for 60Hz, at 50Hz instead will result in a greater strain on the motor itself, which could cause the motor to fail earlier. Given the relatively low voltage and spec of these motors, it's probably not an issue, but it's worth me checking a bit further.

http://www.50hz60hz.com/60hz-motor-running-on-50hz-power-supply.html
 
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astyy

Play Flipper Games for Fun and Recreation
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Coincidence that this thread concerning score motor Hz is Dealers Choice too :- https://pinside.com/pinball/forum/topic/score-motor

Bally advertised a feature from 1963 Star Jet of a "Universal" transformer and score motor supporting both AC frequencies, but for whatever reason they reverted different to import/export versions at some later point as seen on Captain Fantastic etc.

Nothing is simple in this hobby, keeps us sharp:thumbs:
 
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Replay

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It's something I never really thought about, but in most EM games there is some sort of score motor - which has in it, no surprise, an AC motor. Motors are designed to run at a specific Voltage and specific AC frequency - 60Hz USA or 50Hz UK. What this implies is that any imported USA EM machine, is likely to have a score motor that is running 5/6th slower than it should. That MAY cause game timing issues, but I feel this is probably unlikely. WHAT IS MORE OF AN ISSUE, is that running a motor designed for 60Hz, at 50Hz instead will result in a greater strain on the motor itself, which could cause the motor to fail earlier. Given the relatively low voltage and spec of these motors, it's probably not an issue, but it's worth me checking a bit further.

http://www.50hz60hz.com/60hz-motor-running-on-50hz-power-supply.html
I have imported 50's, 60's and 70's EM's from USA and never had an issue with a score motor running at wrong speed.

Had tons and tons of other issues!

All Gottliebs though so not sure if that makes a difference as I know zero about Williams EM's.
 
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AlanJ

AlanJ

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I have imported 50's, 60's and 70's EM's from USA and never had an issue with a score motor running at wrong speed.

Had tons and tons of other issues!

All Gottliebs though so not sure if that makes a difference as I know zero about Williams EM's.
I don't think running at 5/6th speed is going to be really noticeable. And, not sure what type of motors in Gottleib's - they may or may not be affected depending on the motor type. (I'll check when I open up my Top Card EM Gottleib next month for a refurb).

My UK score motor just arrived btw, and yes it does have the correct motor. The coil is well burnt, but a quick test shows that it is still working. It looks like this came out of a machine that was not resetting, and the score motor was left running for a LONG time. I do hope the coil lasts as they are integral to the motor construction, so non-replaceable (well let's say - very very hard to replace - nothing is impossible).
 
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AlanJ

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Today has been a mega day - I felt soooo much better after a decent nights sleep and my cold is on the mend, so I felt like really cracking on:

First job - get all the new LED bulbs in and test out to see which sockets work and which don't:
IMG_9796.JPG IMG_9797.JPG IMG_9798.JPG IMG_9799.JPG
Most are working, some are a bit loose, but on the whole it looks good - only a handful of sockets to sort out - unlike the last project where nearly all the sockets needed replacement. I haven't yet tested all the feature lights - number match, etc.

Next job - cleaning plastics:
IMG_9800.JPG IMG_9801.JPG IMG_9802.JPG
Those threaded, hex, wood screw spacers are expensive to replace. Should I get a Vibratory cleaner? Hell yes!

IMG_9803.JPG
Nice clean set of posts. I started with soap and water. For the stubborn stains, a bit of swarfega orange did the trick - much cheaper than, say, Novus.

I was determined to get these jobs done before i got onto the exciting job: Score motor:
I now have two spares. the seccond one arrived earlier today, and has correct motor, I tested it, it works, but the coil paper wrapper is burnt off and the coil has overheated at some stage in the past. Fingers crossed it lasts.
IMG_9804.JPG

Fitted the new motor and it is a perfect fit into the cam shaft end slot:
IMG_9806.JPG IMG_9805.JPG
You can see the burnt motor coil !

Tested it and the score motor now seems to turn and settle exactly at the index point - i.e the switch arm rests perfectly in the bottom of the cam wheel cut-out slot when it stops at the end of a cycle. I ran a few tests and this appears to have solved 90% of the issues I was having, where the score motor didn't quite stop at the right point leaving switches incorrectly set. I'm really pleased I persevered with this line of action. I did have some issues still - e.g. power on, try start a game and it appears to start but the flippers are not active. Starting player 2 solves the problem. This only happened a few times, so I have vastly improved the situation. I fell now that these issues are probably due to some of the score motor switches needing a fine adjustment.

Next I fitted a new tilt mech, The old one had been removed. Teested and works fine. I then cleaned the 'moving ball' tilt mech above. This want working. it just needed the rust sanding off the ball, and a light sanding of the edges of the ball track and the end contact point. Works perfectly now.
IMG_9807.JPG

Next, I noticed an extra switch on the left flipper - it switches on the lights on power-on - it wasnt working. so I used my new 'leaf adjuster' tool to sort that out:
IMG_9808.JPG IMG_9810.JPG
What a brilliant tool this is. A few £'s and worth every penny.

Next - new coin door lock (keyless):
IMG_9811.JPG

The flipper buttons were filthy, so needed sorting out:
IMG_9814.JPG IMG_9812.JPG IMG_9813.JPG IMG_9815.JPG

I then got into cleaning mode and decided to clean the filthy Score reels:
IMG_9816.JPG

A lot better:
IMG_9819.JPG

I noticed one score reel had flaking numbers:
IMG_9818.JPG

I have a spare!:
IMG_9820.JPG

All sorted:
IMG_9821.JPG

Finally, I've given the backglass a few coats of Krylon Triple today, and it's certainly stabilized the flaking paintwork. It was flaking badly - I touched a bit by accident today and it just dropped off. I am still not sure if this backglass will make it, but I'll see where I get with it.
 

GTB Buckaroo

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Your speed issue on the score motor wont affect play in as much that providing those cams are correct [I note that you saw that they are often different] then all that happens is that the assembly runs a tad faster or slower. What will happen is that the game will do various things slightly faster or slower. If you have a schematic, that will show the correct cam numbers and their positional timing.

Your reset bank issue is likely mechanical. The coils should, from memory, be controlled via your score motor and both will fire on reset so as to clear everything down. Do remember that there is mains voltage on those, and, rule of thumb on EMs is that any wire that is plastic sheaved will have mains in it. Not a bad idea to tighten the switch stack screws throughout the machine BEFORE you start cleaning and adjusting. As the machine warms up, switch gaps can open up and go out of whack.

Lastly, and I know it seems to take forever, try to check, clean and adjust each switch and test as you go. That way ensures that you are on the right path. So many people rip these things apart which usually puts more faults on rather than cure them.

Hope that helps and good luck.
 
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AlanJ

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Today I started the long task of re-painting the playfield. Started with black. I did about two hours of painting, using what I thought was black acrylic paint (this is what it was sold to me as by a chinese ebay seller!!) - 3 hours later, to my horror, I discovered all my work was in vain - the paint was water soluable "gouache".

So, off it all came, re-clean of playfield and start again with some (tested) proper black acrylic. Here are some before and afters:
IMG_9822.JPG IMG_9823.JPG IMG_9828.JPG IMG_9829.JPG IMG_9830.JPG IMG_9832.JPG IMG_9833.JPG IMG_9834.JPG IMG_9826.JPG IMG_9843.JPG

I am definitely not an artist or a painter, but I've managed to do an ok job. i.e. it looks ok from a distance. Very hard to match the black up.

Then I started on the pink, using a neon pink acrylic - perfect colour match, but I ran into issues with the cracks and splits, so more work needed to find a solution here.
 
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