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Cftbl - clicking noise and slow to boot

Jason Catrine

Jason Catrine

Site Supporter
5Years
Joined
Dec 29, 2018
Messages
578
Location
Scotland
Hi all,

I’m after a bit of advice about an issue with Creech. I bought one from a member on here and it arrived last week. Theres an issue where the machine doesn’t appear to boot and you hear a clicking sound through the speakers. The DMD comes on briefly when you turn the power on. If you leave it clicking away for a while the game eventually springs to life. I have gone back to the seller and they were aware of issues and suggested i try j114 connector. They also added that they’ve had reset issues with it too. So with this new info, I’m leaning towards it being a board issue. Having just spent £4500 on the machine, I’m totally gutted that its not working and hoping someone can point me in the right direction to get it fixed without costing a small fortune. I’ve checked all the connections including j114 as the seller seemed to think it was that, but no joy. I’ve took a video of it so you can hear what i mean by this clicking sound.


Any input is very much appreciated.

Thanks,
Jason.
 
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It could be One of the ribbon cables connecting to the MPU is upside down
I had a similar problem with a Twilight Zone after reinstalling the MPU (but I cannot remember which one was wrong)
pin one on a ribbon cable is red, the two at the top of the board , the red stripe is on the left had side. The cable on the left, the red stripe is at the bottom of the plug
(the one on the right side is hard to mess up)
 
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I think it would be worth you removing the back glass and video the whole of the boards so we can see what LED"s are lit, flashing on boot. So we can at least eliminate voltages, or the lack of them. I couldn't hear the clicking noise, myself btw.
 
Firstly just reseat every connector in the backbox things to move in transit.

If that does not resolve it and if you are comfortable with a multimeter open up the back box set to DC voltage and snag the black probe on the backbox earth braiding and check the various DC test points on the power driver board reporting back.

On the CPU board check blue capacitor near J210 with the red probe too , C31 that should be as close to 5vdc as possible.
 
Non booting is usually a 5v issue .
I had a Whitewater that appeared dead but was simply a flaky connector at J101 on the main board . Could be worth reseating that a few times.

EDIT - ah you are actually booting but slowly so unlikely to be this I think .

If this was a *regular* or recent occurrence the seller really should have mentioned it . A one off years ago can maybe be excused as we know how temperamental pins can be .
 
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I checked all the ribbon cables yesterday and they are all round the right way. I also checked everything was plugged in when Martin dropped it off before turning it on and I have since triple checked every one again. The XL dmd does not have its own psu. I'll try reseating J101 a few times when I get home. I'm not the most confident when it comes to boards and voltages due to be electrocuted as a teenager but i'll grab the multimeter and see what the power is like around the j210 capacitor. I'll take a video of the boards as it tries to boot and post that later too. Thanks all.
 
Reseated the ribbon cables there just now but sadly no difference. Heres a video showing the lights that come on.

 
Difficult to tell from your video, however I 'think' LED 19 on the CPU is staying on and LED 20 does not blink (as 19 is permanently on) LED 21 appears to be on indicating 5V, but either way your CPU is clearly NOT booting.

More info here...

WPC LEDs Explained - Pinball Heaven

WPC LEDs Explained | Pinball Heaven are UK Based pinball machine specialists with thousands of parts in stock. Visit our online shop.
www.pinball.co.uk www.pinball.co.uk

I would check the 5V at the CPU board itself, Maybe worth unplugging the power to the XL DMD to see if that helps.

Good luck,


Chris.
 
M4carp said:
You could try unplugging the power to the display to rule the power draw from that out.
Click to expand...
I just tried that but sadly no difference. I timed it there to see how long it takes to spring to life and its just over 90 seconds. Theres some really questionable wiring going on with some of this machine too.
A8C55AD3-F85A-4C57-8DFA-FBB22974A103.jpeg
 
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Sorry to hear you are having issues with your machine, particularly if you weren't aware of them. Hopefully the seller can give some more background info on this, and hopefully it is nothing serious.

I had some reset issues on my Data East machine so immediately thought possibly a 5V or blanking issue here. Now I am no expert by any means and far from it, but here is what I would check after having a brief look at the CFTBL manual.

With power off check Connectors J101 and J114 on the Power Driver Board, seating and re-seating connectors, looking for burnt connectors or corrosion on the Pins.

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 14.35.49.png

With power off, check over Connector J210 on the CPU Board, seating and re-seating connector, looking for burnt connector or corrosion on the Pins.

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 14.39.55.png

Once you are happy with the above connectors. During initial boot up pay attention to the CPU Board LED's, D19, D20 and D21. Have a look at the LED activity and compare against the below from the manual.

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 14.31.59.png

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 14.29.18.png

I had a look over your video of the CPU Board (screen captured below) Pay attention to activity and compare against the above from the manual.

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 14.46.27.png
 
Sgt GrizZ said:
Non booting is usually a 5v issue .
I had a Whitewater that appeared dead but was simply a flaky connector at J101 on the main board . Could be worth reseating that a few times.

If this was a *regular* or recent occurrence the seller really should have mentioned it . A one off years ago can maybe be excused as we know how temperamental pins can be .
Click to expand...
Yeah my FT wasn't booting when the J101 wasn't behaving - https://www.pinballinfo.com/community/threads/fish-tales-problems-need-help.55081/


Though looking at that video, the 5V led is showing as lit, it could indeed be a poor connection on J114.
 
taz turbo said:
Difficult to tell from your video, however I 'think' LED 19 on the CPU is staying on and LED 20 does not blink (as 19 is permanently on) LED 21 appears to be on indicating 5V, but either way your CPU is clearly NOT booting.

More info here...

WPC LEDs Explained - Pinball Heaven

WPC LEDs Explained | Pinball Heaven are UK Based pinball machine specialists with thousands of parts in stock. Visit our online shop.
www.pinball.co.uk www.pinball.co.uk

I would check the 5V at the CPU board itself, Maybe worth unplugging the power to the XL DMD to see if that helps.

Good luck,


Chris.
Click to expand...
It does look like the blanking LED is not going out agreed.

Another source of info:

Williams WPC - PinWiki

pinwiki.com pinwiki.com

That connector with the two pins soldered direct to the board is the GI input from the transformer I wouldn't expect that to impact the CPU from starting Jason.

Check those Z connectors too (off board connectors) reseat them if not already done they can be a source of voltage drop. There's one just in shot at the bottom of the last photo you posted.
 
J101 was mentioned above and that’s another one that someone has done a poor repair on with by soldering wires on. Whats the thoughts on that being my issue? They are soldered securely though - not feeling like they are ready to break off.

I guess i’m just confused as to why after 90 seconds the game boots. I’m thinking it it was wiring then it wouldn’t boot at all no matter how long i left it.
C648CB4C-1EDC-498B-A54E-0642C9E55B01.jpeg
 
Fuse F106 looks like it's blown (bottom one from your pic): should be a 5A slow blow. I'd take it out and test it first. EDIT - it's a General Illumination fuse so shouldn't cause the issue you're seeing.
Edit Edit - all three of those should be 5A slow blow but none of them look the same - best to take them out and look at the ratings stamped around the end caps to be sure.

Screenshot 2023-04-03 152403.png
 
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Does it always boot every time after the 90 seconds and is that time roughly consistent? After it boots does it stay on or is there resets after that? After it's booted, if you turn it off and straight back on again, does it work or need another 90 seconds?

Sounds to me like it could be something warming up and coming into spec after it's had some juice running through it for a bit (if the time is consistent and no issues after it boots). How do the caps look on the power board?

Check the voltages coming into the power board at first switch on and see if they change over the 90 seconds. If they look ok then do the same but with the voltages coming out of the power board etc until you find where it's falling down.
 
Jason Catrine said:
I just tried that but sadly no difference. I timed it there to see how long it takes to spring to life and its just over 90 seconds. Theres some really questionable wiring going on with some of this machine too. I think I’ve bought a lemon :’(
View attachment 198310
Click to expand...

Those wiring hacks aren’t pretty , may well have been there years. Can be tidied up by a competent person easily enough so don’t panic ….. not in lemon territory yet hopefully 😁

I’m guessing you didn’t see pics of the boards beforehand ?
 
Sgt GrizZ said:
I’m guessing you didn’t see pics of the boards beforehand ?
Click to expand...
No, i got lots of close ups of the playfield but none of the boards

The 90 seconds seems fairly consistent but if i do have it booted then turn off and on again within around 30 seconds then it comes on pretty quickly. It doesn’t seem to be off for more than 15-20 mins though until it needs the full 90 seconds again. Apart from the dubious looking soldered wires, i cant see any damage to capacitors or any signs of damage to any boards or connectors. I don’t have any 5a slow blow fuses as per earlier suggestion so i’ll need to order some but it doesn’t sound like that is the culprit but I’ll definitely get them changed.

I’ll go hunt for my multimeter and see if i can check voltages.
 
I have had something similar to this.
My issue was eventually solved with working on the CPU board, plus 5v power checking
30 year old boards, at times, which were hard worked. Then moving the machine, can exaggerate any issue.
As @ronsplooter highlighted, it seems like it eventually warms up and sorts itself out, leading to think the issue is borderline and just gets up to spec.
I can’t saw my method was scientific.

Reseated all the cables to the CPU board
Reseated ASIC (carefully)
Reseated game ROM

Game now working but would lose settings
Socketed RAM, replaced RAM
Changed jumper settings to UK, 0ohm resister

Went through the power driver board and 5vdc was weak. Followed the pin wiki advice.
 
Interestingly that's an A-12967-3 power board. Mine's a -1 version (and that's what's in the manual). Wonder if this one has been swapped out at some point. Doesn't make any difference, just a curiosity in that it's possibly not the original power board from the game
 
I also missed the part about the game actually booting also, but after 90 seconds. The main thing at the moment is at least it is booting up.

Going back to your original first post,,

"I have gone back to the seller and they were aware of issues and suggested i try j114 connector. They also added that they’ve had reset issues with it too"

Are there actually two issues here ?, the first being the time it takes to boot and possible reset issues also ? Once the game has booted does it remain stable ? or does it reset itself after a period of time ?

As you have said it appears to be pretty consistent around the 90 second mark before it boots. Like others have said I think the next step would be to check the voltages coming into and out off the Power Driver Board during the boot process.

Also it's difficult to tell from the video, but is there some corrosion around this area or signs of any rework ?

Screenshot 2023-04-03 at 14.46.27.png
 
Interesting to hear that its not the original power board. If it comes down to that being the issue then i will try and get the right one.

As for the game resetting, i’ve only had 4/5 games on it and got multiball twice and its not reset during gameplay. I mentioned it as the guy I bought it from told me that at the weekend while i was troubleshooting that it had had issues resetting during gameplay and I figured it might be relevant. But yeah, at the point where it’s getting up to speed it does seem to be constantly resetting as the clicks through the speakers are in a repeated pattern.
 
As it's suffered from "pin-shake" try pushing that ASIC in fully with the game off.
 
Also make sure all the screws on the boards are nice and tight.
 
Jason Catrine said:
Interesting to hear that its not the original power board. If it comes down to that being the issue then i will try and get the right one.
Click to expand...

It doesn't actually make any difference, it's just a later revision of the same board. Difference is they removed the circuitry that drives LEDs 2 and 3 so they are missing from this version. Functionally they're the same
 
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