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Ccc it’s here !!

it's a copy just like yours is the copy of the game MikeP has in flipout - Using the original moulds and assets from WMS.
dont Understand what you mean, how is mine a copy of mikes ?
my pinball has Williams components, and all original boards. Yours has china and cheap stern components and different code to make them work.

a remake would need the components in the original games design it’s simple facts Neil.

Cactus canyon copy is a very good example, it will be played with new code and have a new twist, I myself was very interested in looking into one, but with le selling out , I am also out now .

I am not too bothered though as unlike you I have the real one and in time probably both. 😁
 
What I do know is that as we get older we get better jobs and earn a bit more money. When I was in my 20's my hobbies were cheap and I certainly would not have considered getting into a hobby as expensive as pinball ownership.

I wouldn't expect anyone in their 20s to buy a pin for home use. I may be London biased here, as I know it's different in other parts of the UK, but most young people in London simply don't have the physical *space* for a pin - even if they could pick up a cheeky EM for a few hundred.

We caught the bug at arcades because there was nothing else to do. When I was a kid every other kid I knew had been to the arcade and certainly played pinball. A few pals had a C64 but there wasn't really the option to sit at home and be entertained. We also had a youth club with table tennis, pool and pinball but I'm pretty sure consoles have killed off the youth clubs unless anyone can tell me anything to the contrary.

Okay. I keep mentioning this, but I never went to arcades growing up. Or, at least, I have a couple of faint memories of going to a seaside arcade in Scarborough with my uncle and playing on slot machines - but I don't think that's what you're thinking about. My entire childhood experience with pinball was a Tomy Astroshooter Pinball. I spent hours playing it, even though - returning to it as an adult - it's an unfair drain monster. The only other place that anyone in our family has played pinball is motorway service stations. Lethal Weapon and Terminator were apparently very common in service stations in the late 90s.

Our decision to buy a pin (and now two pins) was shaped by my memories of Tomy Astroshooter Pinball and the fact that we had already decided to turn part of our house into a games room to accommodate our board games. I'd had this vague idea of having some kind of arcade machine and it became obvious, thinking about it, that I was thinking of a full-sized version of my Astroshooter Pinball. We then investigated pins and experimentally bought a Fish Tales during lockdown. We've subsequently bought a LoTR and are considering a Stern Godzilla, mostly TBH, because it became so popular with our older boy.

I have 4 kids 16, 14,12 & 7 and every time a new friend of theirs visits they ask what the pinball machine is. There are still arcades and locations but the number of kids who visit them and sample pinball is incredibly low . . . . in essence they won't catch the bug as youngsters in order to create enough future 50 years old's to sustain high level pinball purchases.

But you're assuming that online pinball doesn't exist. I chose Fish Tales based on the Williams app on iOS. I'd already played it about 1,000 times before we bought a physical version. It was the cheapest fun pin from the app IMO, but I was still worried - at the time of purchase - that it would be a terrible mistake because I'd hate a pin in real life.

I think Stern is missing a massive source of revenue by not digitising their modern machines. Most of my favourite pins are 90s era and earlier because that's what I get to play the most online. There are pins I desperately want to play in real life where there are simply not physical versions on public access anywhere, to my knowledge, in Europe. Other pins, I've been using the Pinside Map to hunt for a physical version.

Maybe the pinball companies believe that loading their pins with technology will attract the next generation but it won't. I'm sorry to say that my my kids would rather play with their phones than a pinball machine and linking it to an app won't change that.
That is such a shame :(

My four year old can wax lyrical about his favourite pins (currently Godzilla, unfortunately) and my 20 month old can not only say 'plu-nge' (it's very sweet) and 'pinball' (pronounced 'Pin-Bo'), but he can just about launch a ball from Lord of the Rings. In fact, he loves plunging and his favourite activities is running madly between Fish Tales and Lord of the Rings, plunging a ball, letting it drain, and then running back to launch a new ball - while yelling "PLUNGE". Both my boys have access to iPads and enjoy watching CBeebies/playing computer games, including online pinball, but they prefer the physical pins.
 
Its no argument; you keep making up anecdotal view of the world you want to believe in through your biased eyes. I reflect a view with data, numbers and insight and have a lifetime of serving all ages with network services.
@Neil - last time we discussed this, you talked about the age distribution of tournament players at a big US pinball tournament you visited - based on your observations and not on a survey of everyone's ages. That's about as anecdotal as it gets...

I don't see what network services have to do with anything. I happen to be a medical journalist with a science PhD, so I also work with data, numbers and such-like. I don't think there *is* a lot of data on much of this. All we know is that it's highly unlikely that teens and 20-somethings are buying modern Sterns for home use, and that there are not a large number of large arcades spread all over the country. It's obvious, through visiting venues around London, that no one has any good data on how many UK venues have pins and which ones - the Pinside Map is highly inaccurate.
 
Pricing not confirmed yet. But I think (in light of me having to buy 1 SE to get 1 LE) its going to be £9295 now (was hoping to do it at £8995)
 
I know our perspective is all out of whack now - but I still think those sound like good prices.

Yup, if we ignore how crazy prices have got over the past decade £9295 for a loaded LE with topper compared to £10k for a Stern Premium seems like a bit of a bargain. Weirdly.

Edit: Even better deal of course when you compare to a Stern LE + the price of the topper!
 
An interactive topper no less, which I think has to be one of the best to be released with a game since the good ol days.
 
dont Understand what you mean, how is mine a copy of mikes ?
my pinball has Williams components, and all original boards. Yours has china and cheap stern components and different code to make them work.

a remake would need the components in the original games design it’s simple facts Neil.

Cactus canyon copy is a very good example, it will be played with new code and have a new twist, I myself was very interested in looking into one, but with le selling out , I am also out now .

I am not too bothered though as unlike you I have the real one and in time probably both. 😁

It doesn't have any stern parts!

Every single part in that makes the game is the same, the mechs, the plungers, the flippers. The boards run under emulation so even the boards are the same. The code that it runs is identical. The playfield and cabinet is made by the same company that Williams used. The only difference is some of the lights and how the game distributes power (which is a million times better designed!).
 
It doesn't have any stern parts!

Every single part in that makes the game is the same, the mechs, the plungers, the flippers. The boards run under emulation so even the boards are the same. The code that it runs is identical. The playfield and cabinet is made by the same company that Williams used. The only difference is some of the lights and how the game distributes power (which is a million times better designed!).

I just could not resist 😂, but interesting that the mechs are the same, didn’t realise that
 
@Neil - last time we discussed this, you talked about the age distribution of tournament players at a big US pinball tournament you visited - based on your observations and not on a survey of everyone's ages. That's about as anecdotal as it gets...

I don't see what network services have to do with anything. I happen to be a medical journalist with a science PhD, so I also work with data, numbers and such-like. I don't think there *is* a lot of data on much of this. All we know is that it's highly unlikely that teens and 20-somethings are buying modern Sterns for home use, and that there are not a large number of large arcades spread all over the country. It's obvious, through visiting venues around London, that no one has any good data on how many UK venues have pins and which ones - the Pinside Map is highly inaccurate.

A medical journalist with a PhD - then you are fully qualified! Maybe you need to go back to school and get another PhD. You are not taking a scientific approach to your analysis. I know the age spread because its available data from IPFA. You note that you don't think there is a lot of data about online playing as well as being wrong additionally highlights that you are speaking in anecdotes. Your own post above seems refute your own earlier post although as both lack data its hard to tell. You stated that people of a certain age don't want stuff to be online - sadly the data across nearly every age demographic doesn't support your hypothesis, and network services; we are the companies connecting these folks, we know who they are, what age they are, what interests they have and the fact that they all think Star Wars pinball sucks (ok the last one I made up).

Regards,
Neil.
 
A medical journalist with a PhD - then you are fully qualified! Maybe you need to go back to school and get another PhD. You are not taking a scientific approach to your analysis. I know the age spread because its available data from IPFA.

AFAIK, the IPFA data shows the age spread of people playing tournaments. People playing tournaments does not necessarily equal people interested in pinball, who play pinball regularly or who own pins. If you never enter a tournament, you will - presumably - not appear in the IPFA data.

You note that you don't think there is a lot of data about online playing as well as being wrong additionally highlights that you are speaking in anecdotes. Your own post above seems refute your own earlier post although as both lack data its hard to tell. You stated that people of a certain age don't want stuff to be online - sadly the data across nearly every age demographic doesn't support your hypothesis, and network services; we are the companies connecting these folks, we know who they are, what age they are, what interests they have and the fact that they all think Star Wars pinball sucks (ok the last one I made up).
I didn't say "people don't want stuff to be online". Patently, having stuff online is really REALLY useful. I questioned whether people desperately wanted pinball machines to be online. There is a difference between these two concepts, as you might realise if you consider how many people getting network connectivity want, for example, their lawnmower to be online? Or their wheelbarrow? Also, you need to ask *how* people want to be online? So, for example, hikers like to have access to GPS and online maps. They don't want to do all their hiking in a virtual reality environment - for many people, that would defeat the object of the exercise.

In short, I haven't seen the data so far - I've just seen your anecdotes about the data, and I'm not seeing relevant data either. Lots of people have anecdotes about data; it's surprising how often the data doesn't show up...
 
I don't know what people want, or the ages they are that want it, but one things for sure - I'm not going to fish my phone out of my pocket everytime I want to play a game of pinball. I'm a busy guy.
 
I don't know what people want, or the ages they are that want it, but one things for sure - I'm not going to fish my phone out of my pocket everytime I want to play a game of pinball. I'm a busy guy.
i’m getting used to using my phone every time i play a game on one of my scorbit enabled machines. it adds an extra dimension. sometimes i can’t be bothered, that’s ok i can still start and play a game without my phone. if i looks like i’m going to get a high score i can always grab my phone during the game and claim the game as mine partway through the game. for me it’s a nice additional feature.
 
AFAIK, the IPFA data shows the age spread of people playing tournaments. People playing tournaments does not necessarily equal people interested in pinball, who play pinball regularly or who own pins. If you never enter a tournament, you will - presumably - not appear in the IPFA data.


I didn't say "people don't want stuff to be online". Patently, having stuff online is really REALLY useful. I questioned whether people desperately wanted pinball machines to be online. There is a difference between these two concepts, as you might realise if you consider how many people getting network connectivity want, for example, their lawnmower to be online? Or their wheelbarrow? Also, you need to ask *how* people want to be online? So, for example, hikers like to have access to GPS and online maps. They don't want to do all their hiking in a virtual reality environment - for many people, that would defeat the object of the exercise.

In short, I haven't seen the data so far - I've just seen your anecdotes about the data, and I'm not seeing relevant data either. Lots of people have anecdotes about data; it's surprising how often the data doesn't show up...

Well Point taken on the first point but I think you can align the growth in people playing in tournaments with an interest in pinball - both are growing. I also see how many folks we have turn up at Flip Out and the ages of them. There is also the data on the number of folks streaming pinball and watching pinball online. Again not specifically those interested in pinball but with these points a suitable proxy to take a view on.

For this reason, my generation, and people younger than me, are DESPERATE for physical and non-online assets. This is where the ‘vinyl renaissance’ comes from and the whole ‘millennials are obsessed with authenticity and physical experiences’ thang.

I can’t think of anything worse than connecting a pinball machine, which is inherently a physical mechanical object, to the fracking internet.

Well I don't have PhD in written English but the above sounds to me like you don't want stuff online; if that isn't want you mean then I withdraw my statement. Although I watched something on what the top ten vinyl records were for the last few years, grandad rock ahoy!

If you want to know more about what's happening in online take-up I'm sure being a medical journalist with a PhD isn't going to give you a view of that data; its like when I go into a hospital to build them a solution I don't let my qualifications and knowledge of my subject be a proxy for some sort of experience in medical capabilities I (perhaps naively) trust the people I'm working with are experts in their subject.

Regards,
Neil.
 
Well Point taken on the first point but I think you can align the growth in people playing in tournaments with an interest in pinball - both are growing. I also see how many folks we have turn up at Flip Out and the ages of them. There is also the data on the number of folks streaming pinball and watching pinball online. Again not specifically those interested in pinball but with these points a suitable proxy to take a view on.

You can see a rising tide lifting all boats, but you're always going to see a bias in ages based on tournament data (and, in fact, FlipOut).

To give a simple example, you're not going to see many parents of kids the age of our Pi-Bo Wizard at a tournament or at FlipOut (which has a fixed fee for unlimited play). We played some pinball on Friday and the Pi-Bo Wizard was in a child carrier/backpack, but there's a limit to how long the Pi-Bo Wizard is happy to stay in a child carrier. So, you could theoretically have lots of parents of toddlers playing pinball, but they're going to be either playing a) online or b) at coin-op venues with child-friendly activities. So, they'd be invisible in tournament data and, if they did show up, you'd be primarily seeing a single parent with no kids (because the other parent was providing childcare at home).

Well I don't have PhD in written English but the above sounds to me like you don't want stuff online; if that isn't want you mean then I withdraw my statement. Although I watched something on what the top ten vinyl records were for the last few years, grandad rock ahoy!

It's contextual, isn't it? Online grocery shopping is really useful. Online GP appointments for 100% administrative purposes (e.g. setting up a repeat prescription) are useful. Having a GP make a Skype call about your funny rash isn't useful at all.

I think a lot of people have online fatigue around social situations, especially after the pandemic lockdowns. A lot of online (social media) activity is toxic, a fair few jobs involve spending much of the working day staring at a screen, and I think a certain proportion of people want leisure activities that steer away from that - hence, the growth of analogue tabletop gaming. Pinball is intrinsically a very viscerally physical and mechanical activity, and there's a question about why the target audience for pinball would want it to be more online in the same way as I'd question why people visiting a garden centre would want their wheelbarrow to be more online. Generally, people don't recreationally garden in order to spend more time online... and if you want a pinball machine to be more like a computer game, then you're probably not someone who is going to be attracted to the physical activity of playing a real-life pin in the first place.

I do take your point, however, that online scoring is useful for running tournaments. But not everyone wants to organise or play in tournaments.
 
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If I were a golfer I’d have not real desire to know everyone’s round every day on the local course, maybe be happy with a once a year caddy shack style tournament there just sooo many variables weather daylight wind ect much like with everyone’s machines different levels different rubbers different balls different playfield manufacturing date . The list goes on . It works with video games as it’s all the same program but to me Neil online pinball scoring with real machines is like comparing Mars to Uranus
 
Hey thats your view, but with such a closed mind on it you miss out on epic stuff like this:

 
I wouldn't expect anyone in their 20s to buy a pin for home use. I may be London biased here, as I know it's different in other parts of the UK, but most young people in London simply don't have the physical *space* for a pin - even if they could pick up a cheeky EM for a few hundred.



Okay. I keep mentioning this, but I never went to arcades growing up. Or, at least, I have a couple of faint memories of going to a seaside arcade in Scarborough with my uncle and playing on slot machines - but I don't think that's what you're thinking about. My entire childhood experience with pinball was a Tomy Astroshooter Pinball. I spent hours playing it, even though - returning to it as an adult - it's an unfair drain monster. The only other place that anyone in our family has played pinball is motorway service stations. Lethal Weapon and Terminator were apparently very common in service stations in the late 90s.

Our decision to buy a pin (and now two pins) was shaped by my memories of Tomy Astroshooter Pinball and the fact that we had already decided to turn part of our house into a games room to accommodate our board games. I'd had this vague idea of having some kind of arcade machine and it became obvious, thinking about it, that I was thinking of a full-sized version of my Astroshooter Pinball. We then investigated pins and experimentally bought a Fish Tales during lockdown. We've subsequently bought a LoTR and are considering a Stern Godzilla, mostly TBH, because it became so popular with our older boy.



But you're assuming that online pinball doesn't exist. I chose Fish Tales based on the Williams app on iOS. I'd already played it about 1,000 times before we bought a physical version. It was the cheapest fun pin from the app IMO, but I was still worried - at the time of purchase - that it would be a terrible mistake because I'd hate a pin in real life.

I think Stern is missing a massive source of revenue by not digitising their modern machines. Most of my favourite pins are 90s era and earlier because that's what I get to play the most online. There are pins I desperately want to play in real life where there are simply not physical versions on public access anywhere, to my knowledge, in Europe. Other pins, I've been using the Pinside Map to hunt for a physical version.


That is such a shame :(

My four year old can wax lyrical about his favourite pins (currently Godzilla, unfortunately) and my 20 month old can not only say 'plu-nge' (it's very sweet) and 'pinball' (pronounced 'Pin-Bo'), but he can just about launch a ball from Lord of the Rings. In fact, he loves plunging and his favourite activities is running madly between Fish Tales and Lord of the Rings, plunging a ball, letting it drain, and then running back to launch a new ball - while yelling "PLUNGE". Both my boys have access to iPads and enjoy watching CBeebies/playing computer games, including online pinball, but they prefer the physical pins.


To be fair the 7 year old loves pinball so it's not a complete loss and I'm hopeful of trying to bring the 12 year old to heel. He's just learnt to juggle though so i don't want to push my luck 😂. I say this as a parent who is anti-smartphone and sets limits on the kids usage too. . . it's like a tsunami though and very hard to push against.

As for your points about Astroshooter and online digital pinball it's just not the same. It's a numbers game and the number of people with your experience is comparatively small.

When I say everyone used to go to arcades and youth clubs I mean EVERYONE. TV was sh!te with only BBC 1, BBC 2 & ITV (then C4). When I lived in Essex we used to go to the youth club or go to Southend on the train and spend all day in the arcade. When I moved to Dorset we did the same albeit Boscombe pier.

The exposure to arcade machines & pinball was vast and there was no competition for your time. There may be some who play digital pinball but they're competing with every other app on the i-pad as well as X-box, PS5, Amazon prime, Netflix, Spotify, TikTok & Football . . . . . . honestly the market share is not comparable.

It's hard to imagine but there used to be one live televised football match per week ONE!!!!! My generation had the choice to either stay at home and watch Emmerdale Farm with your mum or go to the youth clubs and play pool, Outrun & pinball.

My generation now say "Oh wow, a pinball machine. I've not played one of those in years". When the current generation grow up they'll say "What's that?".

It will have a massive impact in terms of future pinball ownership.
 
I know our perspective is all out of whack now - but I still think those sound like good prices.

I completely agree. Unless I've got it wrong they're £1500 cheaper than the Stern equivalents.
 
When I say everyone used to go to arcades and youth clubs I mean EVERYONE. TV was sh!te with only BBC 1, BBC 2 & ITV (then C4). When I lived in Essex we used to go to the youth club or go to Southend on the train and spend all day in the arcade. When I moved to Dorset we did the same albeit Boscombe pier.
Was the same with us in Acton W London, if we weren’t in one of the local shops that had arcade machines or the local arcade we went to Soho.
Failing that playing football up against a brick wall was fun and very cheap😂
 
I just rode my bike around the estate... In circles.
Or ventured into woods with friends to burn things (mostly responsibly)

No arcades near me😑
Best I had was a Sega Master System and that was old hat at the time... Then an Amiga commodore second hand cos I'd asked my parents for a computer. Didn't know what i was doing most of the time except games on it like Zool, Pinball Heaven(?) cannon fodder, alien breed and the like.

I don't think teens are interested in pinball much at all, younger might be of exposed to it but I imagine grow out of it when puberty hits?
 
Nope teens not interested in pinball:

 
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