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Black Rose switch issues

The seeker

The seeker

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Hi, I bought Black Rose of another forum member around 6 months ago and its played like a dream ever since, there was the odd thing a wonky post and a weak pop number which i decided to tackle tonight but its lead to several issues
the other day i adjusted the pop bumper a little to make it more snappy and it worked the game was playing really well and after several games i called it a night thinking i was happy with it until i turned it on tonight, first thing i noticed was the out hole solenoid was firing .. it seemed to do this around 5 times - after a moment it stopped and i started a game and then 2 balls were placed in the shooter lane the 2nd around 3 seconds after the first - this is repeated every time a new ball is started the next issue is the slings are now not working tho the left is still registering hits its not kicking back the night is just dead now the odd thing is that tho non of the slings work during play they will work whist performing a ball search tho - why is this ? i had a look in the back box no acid damage on the board to see bit the tips of the battery were corroded and 1 may have had leakage but no nasty stuff on the boards. and help including where to buy a new board .. if you think thats necessary many thanks james
 
I don't think so but this is my first real technical problem like I said the sings aren't working nor one of 3 pop bumpers and the music cut out mid game tho the sound effects are still playing ? And it's still ejecting 2 balls and firing the out hole coil I've attached the switch matrix
 
So as it stands I have no bottom pop bumper no slings a twin ball eject and repeating out hole solinoide and no in game music ... I've attached afew shots if anyone can point me in the right direction .. like I said in earlier post there was some acid on the old batteries , now cleaned and replaced.
 

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after reseating cables you need to rigorously go through the test menus

Go into switch test per your switch edges photo above. Make sure that every switch in the game works properly. That the ones that should be normally open are normally open and the ones that should be normally closed (optos before they are triggered) are normally closed. Tick them off on the switch matrix table so you test them all. Make sure that multiple switches are not triggered erroneously. And you have to use pinballs in the ball trough to test the switches - manually activate the ball eject solenoid to do this

Pay specific arrention to the pop bumper switch you adjusted and also the ball trough switches. The ball trough switches on your game are microswitches I believe. It is possible for these to fail. It is also possible that they are too tight and the pressure on their case means they open slowly. The hot weather might be enough to cause this. Sticky microswitches are the classic cause of multiple balls ejecting into the shooter lane - a switch that should have opened when the ball ran off it, remained closed momentarily (0.5 of a second is enough) so the game fired another ball into the shooter lane

Then go into solenoid test and see whether they are all firing properly.

You may have more than one fault here

Report back
 
Did you try and adjust the pop bumper with the power on by any chance because it looks
as though all you problem switches are on row 8 which points to the LM339 chip on the mpu board U19
check all the switches on row 8 in switch edge test If you get no response from these then I would suspect U20
the ULN2803 chip may also be affected.
 
No I did gave the machine off at the time .. I simply , and in hindsight use that tearm whole heartily just squeezed the connections close together / yet leaving a gap so that as the balk gently tapped the pop it triggered it to "pop" seemed to work for afew games then I switched it off and the next time I went to the machine it was full of faults ..
 
As @DRD and myself said you must test the switch's, manually operate them whilst in edge test mode
you should see a dot on the display change whilst operating any switch and a bong but if the sounds bad
you may not hear it
 
Only had afew minutes and ran a solenoid test all seemed to work as expected even the slings and pop, lamp test seemed fine. the music is all over the place no in game music but still effects.. is this sounding like acid damage? At DRD whilst operating the switches manually and discovered that most switches worked whilst just being activated some needed one to be held down in order to activate the next for instance the out lanes with the cannon (lock) lanes the outer one worked yet the inner did not unless you also held the outer down likewise with the slings they only register if the switch to the left or right is held down. ? oh my beautiful black rose why are you being so cruel to me :(
 
Well it sounds like the solenoids and solenoid fuses are ok

I know nothing about sound problems. Standard rules are to reseat the connectors and socketed chips. If no joy, reflow solder on the pins if you feel confident doing this

With the switch matrix, is there a pattern to where the faults are ? Mark up a print out of the switch matrix to highlight any commonality, this helps to nail down the fault. There are useful guides online for diagnosing trouble like this ...


I have not heard of scenarios where you need to depress two switches to get the second one to work. Have wires snapped off the relevant switches under the playfield ? andy at mania or phil at heaven may well zero in on this pretty quickly if you give them a bell

It sounds like lots of your faults relate to the white grey wire on row 8 of the switch matrix. Check whether this has fallen off one of the switches it feeds
 
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One thing I'm thinking you haven't got the switch contacts you adjusted on the pop bumper
now shorted closed this could cause wacky switch faults.
concur with DRD and still think its on row 8 where your fault lies
 
Hello, James,

The picture of the display in post #6 shows that the game was seeing two balls in the trough (Centre and Right), and the ramp as Down. Does that correspond with the conditions at the time? F'r instance, if there were actually three balls in the trough, then the 'Left' switch, 1-8, wasn't registering. Or if the 3rd ball was on the shooter, then 'Ball Shooter', 2-5, should've been active. The 'active' square at posit. 2-4 is always like that, it shows that the switch matrix is 'live'.

If you're careful, it's possible to check whether the problem lies with the Cpu board or playfield. Almost the entire switch matrix links to the cpu via connectors J 206, for the columns, and J 208 for the rows. Removing these two connectors leaves the cpu with only the 'Test' switch, 2-4, showing. Any playfield switch can then be simulated by using a piece of wire to connect the relevant pins on the cpu board. In your case, J 208, pin 9 is for row 8. With the switch matrix grid shown, connecting 208-9 to each pin of J 206, in turn, should show activity for each switch of row 8, even those that are designated 'Not Used'. Provided there are only two pins linked, then only the switch at that junction should be registered. Multiple switches showing, or nothing at all, shows a problem with the cpu board, while correct results confirm it's the playfield.

Was it the Left jet bumper, 4-8, that set off all this trouble? For a problem there to make the outhole switch register falsely, you'd need the three balls in the trough (specifically the Left), and Top Left Loop, 4-5, also closed to form a rectangle with the outhole diagonally opposite the faulty switch.
 
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Hi guys ok so after much discussion of the problems and all greatly appreciated I took the board out to find acid damage :( luckily I orderd a new mpu board last week tho and fitted it this morning the game is working perfectly and the pop bumpers seem better than ever , one issue I did have is not being able to remove the main chip from the board it was stuck solid so unfortunately I had to use brute force to release it .. the photos are not pretty :( I'm sure that the right person could have fixed the board and my plan was to offer it on the forum but unfortunately after hacking off the chip o think it would have very little value so I'll keep it for future salvage
 

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Well at least you got it out :D. Well done getting the machine working again. That damaged asic socket could be replaced by someone with a very steady hand if it was worth it. The acid damage looks pretty minor...

I bought a socket a while ago but one look at how fine those pins/traces are was enough to put me off, that's a job for someone with superhuman soldering skills .

20170625_110600.jpg
 
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