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UK League Finals

What is your preference as to how/when the UK League Finals should be held?

  • Ran at Pinfest?

    Votes: 15 75.0%
  • Ran as a stand alone event?

    Votes: 2 10.0%
  • Ran as 1 of 2 competitions held over a weekend?

    Votes: 3 15.0%

  • Total voters
    20
Here's my take about what could be improved assuming you don't fundamentally change the format or timing of each comp:

Open/Classics

1 Have 4 time slots per comp instead of 2. Peter did do this in the end but of course would have helped everyone if they knew before the day itself.
This will make fewer machines in use at any one time and fewer players in the area.
Do not allow the next groups to start before their alloted time as this just delays the first groups.

2 Cordon off the area during comp time to avoid any members of public playing. If it's clearly signposted they know it's out of bounds so won't get upset if asked to leave a machine because it's needed for the comp. Can open it up for public play in evenings or after comps finished

3 Use different lettering for the player groups between Open and Classics eg Open A-H. Classics L-S

4 Have machines pre assigned on the score cards rather than drawn from hat each time. This will speed things up as you can play a machines that's free (assuming your opponent is too). Also means it can be worked out so you don't play same machine twice.

5 Give double byes to winners of groups and single byes to 2nd to give some advantage for a higher group finish

6 Hold any playoffs after ties for group position on Sat not Sun. Notify players they must be available after end of their qualifying in case needed for playoffs.

7 I don't believe matchplay software would help as all ones I've come across require one round to be finished before next one starts. This will cause lots of delays as always waiting for longest game before anyone can start new round!

Having said all of above I think Peter and the Raisons did an amazing job pretty much single handely running the comps and Peter furthermore supplying the vast majority of the machines. I agree it would be better if they were spread from more sources but a lot of donors do not wish their machines to be used in comps and not available for public play. So not an easy task for Peter to source these and can think he decided to supply most as the easiest and most pragmatic solution in the end. With more time and co-operation next year this could be resolved.

League Finals

1 Have 2 separate banks of machines for A and B finals

2 Have dedicated time slots to play your 5 machines. With 2 hour slots in Open/Classics this could all be done in the 2 hour slot you're not playing in Open/Classics and could certainly complete all qualifying on Saturday if not playoffs too.

3 Have a back up machine in case of machine faults/failure


@NeilMcRae to answer your queries:

- regional leagues had WPPR points awarded in past but now in order to qualify you need to have some head to head play. Hence playoffs in A and B finals after5 game qualifying. No easy way to have play offs in league as you either need a separate meet or hold at last meet when not all players may be attending.

- league has always been 4 balls (since inception in 2007) and was deemed to be a 1 ball compensation for lack of extra balls being awarded. Why change when been fine for 12 years?!



Cheers
Greg
 
Isn't the thing with the league, that by storing up all the associated points until the finals - it means that finalist score quite big points ? The downside is that non finalists get zero

Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick here.
 
Quick idea.

I am not in the leagues but enjoyed UK open.

Suggestion.

Saturday - Open.
Sunday - Classics.

Also solves issues of people wanting to play comp games as each would be free for a day.

League Comp - Saturday evening?
 
- regional leagues had WPPR points awarded in past but now in order to qualify you need to have some head to head play. Hence playoffs in A and B finals after5 game qualifying. No easy way to have play offs in league as you either need a separate meet or hold at last meet when not all players may be attending.

We're going way off from the original topic (apologies), but I think Neil's point is that it doesn't need to be this way. I have to admit I absolutely love the league meets in the format they currently are. But it does punish the UK player base as we get hardly any WPPR points (or at least not since IFPA made the change that you're talking about a year or two back to require head-to-head play)

We could change the league meets to use a group matchplay system, with swiss or tiered pairing for example. That would mean each individual meet is valid for WPPR points, and is (still) it's own mini-tournament. You could further then track the cumulative results of individual players across the entire season to rank players across the season, and determine the season winners that are then eligible for the cross-region finals.

I admit it's a bit of a departure from the past, but it's absolutely trivial to set things up to run this way using https://matchplay.events and I'd be happy to demo by running a trial event if the regional co-ordinators want to get together at some point.

Anyhow, I hope these are the kind of things that the regional directors discuss when the time comes up. :)
 
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It makes sense to have them at the central meet. It used to be Teams on Friday, Open on Sat and league final Sunday & Classics. This gave enough time for any competition to run over without affecting another.
I put the blame on the IFPA and that stupid "meaningful games" crap that makes comps run and run. The league was never worth many points and won't be. Forget WPPR points, they count for nothing as proven before with the power 100.
 
What happened to that tournament software used previously?
 
Having said all of above I think Peter and the Raisons did an amazing job pretty much single handely running the comps and Peter furthermore supplying the vast majority of the machines. I agree it would be better if they were spread from more sources but a lot of donors do not wish their machines to be used in comps and not available for public play. So not an easy task for Peter to source these and can think he decided to supply most as the easiest and most pragmatic solution in the end. With more time and co-operation next year this could be resolved.

League Finals

1 Have 2 separate banks of machines for A and B finals

2 Have dedicated time slots to play your 5 machines. With 2 hour slots in Open/Classics this could all be done in the 2 hour slot you're not playing in Open/Classics and could certainly complete all qualifying on Saturday if not playoffs too.

3 Have a back up machine in case of machine faults/failure


@NeilMcRae to answer your queries:

- regional leagues had WPPR points awarded in past but now in order to qualify you need to have some head to head play. Hence playoffs in A and B finals after5 game qualifying. No easy way to have play offs in league as you either need a separate meet or hold at last meet when not all players may be attending.

- league has always been 4 balls (since inception in 2007) and was deemed to be a 1 ball compensation for lack of extra balls being awarded. Why change when been fine for 12 years?!



Cheers
Greg

So I gave two machines to the open, to make sure we had something newish :D

I agree with most of your points.

Not sure that the software would slow anything down given for hours I couldn't find players, with the round format you are there or you are out. I regularly play in a couple of leagues where this is the norm. Having a round by round system (like you run at robot bash) is how this should be IMO. And just avoid LOTR or hobbit to avoid long ball games :D

Its pretty simple to run a matchplay tourney and in my view that should be the norm. Run an A group and a B group 20 players in each and run them at the same time, 5 rounds is doable in 2-3 hours.

other than every other league on the planet uses 3 balls? :)

Neil.
 
they count for nothing as proven before with the power 100.

other than events with WPPR score more attendance than those without... even that alone is worth doing it for that. Whether they mean anything is for the holder to look in the mirror and decide :D
 
So I gave two machines to the open, to make sure we had something newish :D

I agree with most of your points.

Not sure that the software would slow anything down given for hours I couldn't find players, with the round format you are there or you are out. I regularly play in a couple of leagues where this is the norm. Having a round by round system (like you run at robot bash) is how this should be IMO. And just avoid LOTR or hobbit to avoid long ball games :D

Its pretty simple to run a matchplay tourney and in my view that should be the norm. Run an A group and a B group 20 players in each and run them at the same time, 5 rounds is doable in 2-3 hours.

other than every other league on the planet uses 3 balls? :)

Neil.

It does seem strange that if all other leagues use 3 balls, UK uses 4?

At home and on location, most games are set to 3.

I know extra balls are turned off, so maybe that's is why 4 are used?

Would have thought using 3 would make standards higher as more pressure?
 
The league attracts a different sort of animal to the knock-out tournaments. I think folk should be careful before messing too much with the league format.

Getting a meal, a visit to someone's house, seeing kids through to oaps, some just turning up to have a chat, noone getting knocked out, noone stood about getting thrashed by a better player ....

How many balls is all about game time. If you go to a venue with 20 machines, then you can get plenty of 3 ball games in to fill players' time. But if you go to a venue with 5 machines, why force shortened 3 ball games on folk ? Especially with the modern stern type machines or jjp where you are building towards Wizard modes etc. The leagues can be lucky to find 4 to 6 venues in each geographic area as it is.
 
The league attracts a different sort of animal to the knock-out tournaments. I think folk should be careful before messing too much with the league format.

Getting a meal, a visit to someone's house, seeing kids through to oaps, some just turning up to have a chat, noone getting knocked out, noone stood about getting thrashed by a better player ....

How many balls is all about game time. If you go to a venue with 20 machines, then you can get plenty of 3 ball games in to fill players' time. But if you go to a venue with 5 machines, why force shortened 3 ball games on folk ? Especially with the modern stern type machines or jjp where you are building towards Wizard modes etc. The leagues can be lucky to find 4 to 6 venues in each geographic area as it is.
Maybe that is the difference then.
Seems like most USA leagues are played in Barcades etc, so they are then very different events.
 
The league attracts a different sort of animal to the knock-out tournaments. I think folk should be careful before messing too much with the league format.

Getting a meal, a visit to someone's house, seeing kids through to oaps, some just turning up to have a chat, noone getting knocked out, noone stood about getting thrashed by a better player ....

How many balls is all about game time. If you go to a venue with 20 machines, then you can get plenty of 3 ball games in to fill players' time. But if you go to a venue with 5 machines, why force shortened 3 ball games on folk ? Especially with the modern stern type machines or jjp where you are building towards Wizard modes etc. The leagues can be lucky to find 4 to 6 venues in each geographic area as it is.

David all valid points but I think most of the ethos of those meets can and should be maintained. Maybe it’s just me because I play more events in the US than UK and I think the US formats work better. Down here in the south east we seem to have a different problem, lots of potential venues with not enough weekend slots.

Neil.
 
Maybe that is the difference then.
Seems like most USA leagues are played in Barcades etc, so they are then very different events.

From an social point of view they aren’t different at all.
 
The UK LEAGUE, has ran for 12 years in it's current format with none, if any changes to the regional meets as far as I know.
I don't know anyone who doesn't like the social aspect, the mix of ages and abilities, able to play their games without the pressure of head to head against possibly a top player in the UK, the way new people are welcomed and fit in to the group very quickly, neighbours of people hosting coming and playing, groups of kids playing together.

What has changed is that IFPA changed the rules on allocation of WPPR pts because certain venues in the US were abusing the system.
In no way whatsoever do I think we should change the regional meets from what they are. It gives the competitive people the opportunity to qualify for a finals with big WPPR pts and a trophy, as well as giving newcomers a relaxed environment to meet other people interested in pinball, and for friends to meet up, play some pinball and have a laugh.
If someone else wants to run a UK match play league, I'd certainly turn up and compete, but it's not something I think the UK League should morph into.

The finals used to just be another 'league meet', just with the top qualifiers from each region. What has changed, to appease the IFPA, is that there is now a head to head component, but that is only for the final with the main portion being the standard league format - as that is what the competition is.

I think it works extremely well, as has been proven for the last 3 years when the same format was used without issue. It had difficulties this year due to the FORMAT of the Open and Classics, which I had pointed out before the event to Peter, but he wasn't willing to change from the format he had set which impacted more significantly on the League finals.

This will definitely NOT be the case next year.
 
Isn't the thing with the league, that by storing up all the associated points until the finals - it means that finalist score quite big points ? The downside is that non finalists get zero

Sorry if I have the wrong end of the stick here.
EVERYONE who plays at at least 2 regional meetings is entered in the submissions of the UK League, not just the finalists.

The results are now on the IFPA website, with over 140 people getting pts. For a significant proportion of these people it is their largest pts tally, or just as likely the ONLY competition they have ever entered. Those people don't enter for the WPPR pts, rather for the enjoyment of playing at meets.
 
From an social point of view they aren’t different at all.
How many 4 yr olds enter the comps?
How many players bring their whole family along with them?

I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, but they are most definitely different.
 
It does seem strange that if all other leagues use 3 balls, UK uses 4?

At home and on location, most games are set to 3.

I know extra balls are turned off, so maybe that's is why 4 are used?

Would have thought using 3 would make standards higher as more pressure?
Whether any other league uses 3 ball, or 5 ball, or players have to play with their feet should have no bearing on the established rules of the UK League, which has worked successfully for 12 years now.

If it ain't broke - don't try and fix it.
 
How many 4 yr olds enter the comps?
How many players bring their whole family along with them?

I'm not saying 1 is better than the other, but they are most definitely different.

alot in both cases. sunshine none but its a late night league in a bar.

as everything is perfect no point in commenting any more!
 
I think Wayne made some fair points. As a competition I think it's far from perfect. But as an easy entry point to friendly competitive pinball I can't think of a better example, and it is provably successful if you look at it's growth. Whenever I talk to new people it's always the local leagues that I recommend, because it's a great way to meet the people in the hobby and enjoy a few games

And yep, if you enjoy the local leagues and want something more serious then I guess anyone can take on the challenge of organising that
 
I think this thread as gone well off track...

I think the original question was when should the finals be done... The poll hasn't changed and majority has spoken that it should be run at Pinfest

Now its up to @Wayne J @Big Phil and whom ever is running the main comp next year to organise the schedule better!
 
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