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STTNG Menu Issue

Marcel

Marcel

Site Supporter
Joined
Feb 26, 2017
Messages
612
Location
Huddersfield
Hi guys,

Can anybody help please, I cannot access the menu.
I open the coin door and machine knows the door is open, high power disabled.

But, volume up, down and menu buttons don't work, all 4 buttons not working. They used to last time I noticed so I'm thinking a blown fuse somewhere as opposed to wiring but I cannot see a fuse listed in the back box diagram or an obvious blowout.

Anyone got any ideas please?

Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
First thing I'd check is whether the batteries have leaked on the CPU board, that section is one of the first things to be affected if they have. It won't be a fuse.
 
No it's not batteries, I only just replaced them (I did just double check to be sure).

Thanks for the idea though:)

Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
The test switches aren't part of the switch matrix, they connect to J205 on the CPU board and are directly switched to ground. You can use a meter to test that the switches are working correctly but the chances of all 4 failing at the same time is next to zero, so you're going to want to look for a problem thats common to all 4. It's possible all of them are missing a ground, if not then there will be a fault on the board. You can test the functionality of the board itself by unplugging J205 and then using a piece of wire to manually ground pins 5 to 8 which correspond to the test switches. Each of these pins should normally be high (e.g. you should see 5v between them and ground with a meter, or high with a logic probe), grounding them pulls the voltage down which the board detects as a switch press. If this isn't the case then the most likely culprit is the LM339 chip at U16.

There's loads of good information on how this all works here: http://pinwiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Williams_WPC#Direct_Switch_Problems

I know you have checked twice but I'd really recommend looking really carefully at the board around the U16 area as it can be really difficult to tell if batteries have leaked on the board if it has only just started happening and this is normally the first area to be affected.

DirectSwitches.PNG
 
Thanks again for the help Aaron.

I'm not sure what just happened but I did recheck the board and batteries for leakage and it looks fine.

However I did swap batteries for freshly charged ones.
Then when I turned it on and opened the door, it acted like the menu buttons had pressed themselves, I had pressed them but then it felt like they had remembered my presses and it was acting by itself.

This soon stopped and then the menu didn't work again.

I turned it off & on, removed and swapped batteries and still menu didn't work.

I removed j205 & the plug above for closer inspection, all looked good so I took piccies & replaced them.

Hey presto, when I started it up, they worked.
Turned off & on again and they're still working.

Confused but suspiciously pleases it's not ongoing.
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Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
100% that board has suffered from leaking batteries, I can see it from the photos. There is a load of crusty green stuff on the bottom contacts of the battery holder and the pins on U16 have started going dull grey instead of bright silver.

If the buttons are working intermittently or feel unresponsive it's even more of a giveaway. The good news is it looks like you've caught it early so it's a problem that can easily be rectified. You need to neutralise the alkaline with vinegar and water to stop it damaging the board asap. I'd also remove the battery holder and fit a remote one instead. In particular you need to make sure that there is no remaining alkaline underneath the chips as if there is it will just keep on eating through the traces. Removing U16 to get underneath it easily is the best way to be sure.
batteryleakcpu.jpg
 
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Hi Aaron,

Your advice is greatly appreciated.

I have removed the board and treated as you said with vinegar/water mixture.

Looks like I have had a very close shave (says he who has not reinstalled the board yet).
My batteries are fine, therefore I presume it was the set I replaced that were the problem.

Rear side of the board looks bright in u16 area and front is not really dull although possibly marginally tarnished.

I reckon my batteries were slightly down on power and hence could not penetrate the "alkine leakage" where it had discoloured the terminals & hence when I swapped for fully charged batteries, I had the blip.

Now all has been cleaned up, I'm hoping it works fine.

Once again, I would not have diagnosed without your help and I really am gratefull.

Cheers Aaron:)


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Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
Thanks for your kind comments, I'm happy to have been of assistance.

The batteries are only there to provide power to the volatile RAM so the settings and scores remain saved while the machine is turned off and serve no other purpose. The cabinet test switches and everything else should work perfectly even if you don't have any batteries installed at all. Just the action of the board flexing when you changed the batteries and plug etc could of been enough to explain the blip.

The dull solder joints aren't really anything to worry about apart from the fact they are an indicator of leaking batteries. Your board actually looks in really good shape so whatever batteries leaked must have started fairly recently. The key is making sure that there is no alkaline from batteries left on the board to cause further damage. It's damage to the little copper traces on the PCB itself that renders boards irrepairable. You only need to worry about the top side of the board paying particluar attention to what you can't see under the battery holder and chips. Most of the chips including the LM339 at U16 which looks to be the only one slightly affected are really cheap and easy to replace. Hopefully you have it all up and working properly again now. :)
 
Well I'm not sure if it's a time turned on thing or I have a bigger problem now Aaron.

When I reinstalled the board, had same issue of menu not working. But went to make a cuppa tea and hey presto, it works.

Turned off and on to retest and menu still works, however the canons during the warm up seemed to unset their resting position.

The game is working and playing ok and all features seem ok.

Any ideas on how I should reset the canon positions please?

Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
The battery leakage quite possibly happened before you bought the game...

Whilst it looks like you've done a good job cleaning the board up, you kept the old battery holder on the board... There are lots of places on that battery holder that you cannot clean so the battery rot is still there (and is still visible in the second photo (top battery holder just by the legs). You need to remove the battery holder from the board (and take to opportunity to fit a remote holder). Any chips affected will need replaced (not just cleaned), such as U16. Also check the connectors for the battery rot, especially J212 and J213.

Bottom line is if you're still having problems then you've not caught it all.

You can reset the cannon home position using the cannon test in the test menus once you've got your switches working properly.
 
Marcel said:
Well I'm not sure if it's a time turned on thing or I have a bigger problem now Aaron.

When I reinstalled the board, had same issue of menu not working. But went to make a cuppa tea and hey presto, it works.
Click to expand...

If that's the case I wouldn't be surprised if this issue raises it's head again. You might be lucky.

Replacing any potentially damaged components is really the only 100% fix.



Sent from my D5833 using Tapatalk
 
Thanks for your replies and advice.

Moonraker said:
You can reset the cannon home position using the cannon test in the test menus once you've got your switches working properly.
Click to expand...

Whilst I have found the canon launchers in test function and moved them to home position, when I exit menu they reset to the wrong position.

A am using test menu then functions 14 & 15.

Just noticed Test Report on first press of menu button. Test Report says:-
"LT Launcher can't find Home".

Doesn't mention RT Launcher in test report, one thing at a time hey.

Well this has peeved me off just as I fitted my blades and lane extenders, it looks the part and doesn't go:(


Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
Hello,

The message "Launcher can't find Home" is somewhat vague, it may be a cover-all one for the cannons. I've seen the cannons move back and forth while powering-up the machine, then park facing out. The wiring coming up through the playfield can suffer breakages after years of cycling in and out - if the wiring for the opto switch is affected, sending the opto 'dark' (i.e. with the beam broken), that counts as having the cannon loaded. Hence the movement of the cannon in an attempt to clear it, the message and parking so that a ball sent up from the subway can't add to the problem. Ideally the message might've been 'Can't find Home and Clear'

To add to the difficulty, the break may be intermittent. One I remember only had the circuit broken at one alignment of the cannon; during the movement it would restore contact, and the cannon would try to home, then the break would occur again, repeating the cycle until it gave up
 
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Ignore the error message, use the cannon test to manually move the cannon to the home position. Once both cannons are in the home position turn the game off. Wait a few seconds then switch it back on. Both cannons should now be working correctly. If they don't then you may have wiring or switch issues. It is normal to loose position if you switch the game off whilst one or both of them are moving.
 
Moonraker said:
use the cannon test to manually move the cannon to the home position. Once both cannons are in the home position turn the game off. Wait a few seconds then switch it back on. Both cannons should now be working correctly.
Click to expand...

Thanks Moonraker,

Opened playfield up and looked to see switches (2 per cannon), both are clicking when pressed by hand.

I used test function to align both cannons, pictures show the menu display which doesn't change throughout my menu alignment.

I'd of thought when cannons are not aligned, switches would open on menu display.

Once aligned, i lifted playfield again & both sets of switches are closed as I'd suspect is how it knows it's home.

I've done this but as soon as machine turns on the launchers start searching and default to a mid table position.
0cded770c2cafeae9007ed717ed540c2.jpg5534f43cbae838748dcf4f69d1c0dd95.jpg

Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
maybe try a donor CPU board to see if all your issues go away. That board damage looks too suspect for my liking.
 
Yea I think your right guys, donor board would be an ideal opportunity to test, is anybody close to Huddersfield with a STTNG available?

How much are new boards or is it just a case of soldering in a u16 chip etc?

I'd be happy to leave a cash deposit of full value with anybody the did lend me a donor in case I broke theirs or absconded, not that I would you understand but just to show good faith.

Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
Send your board to someone to check out and repair. It doesn’t look badly corroded. It may or may not be the chip. Could be one of the associated resistors or maybe just bad connection on the connector. Look closely at the connectors to see if anything has dripped onto them.
 
Yes it does look like the connectors have had a drop.

I'll give these the vinegar treatment and see how it is?

I take it these are off the shelf connectors and I may as well swap them out?

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Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
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It’s very easy to prove. Go to switch test, hold down a non working or suspect switch and move the dodgy connectors around. If you get intermittent switch closures then the connector is the problem. If it’s solid on or off then the connector is probably ok.
 
HOOORAY - FIXED IT

Thank you all so much for your guidance everyone, the acid damage appeared so minor, me being a novice just about missed it despite you guys telling me where to look.

What eventually solved it was the tarnishing to the connector blocks and pins being neutralized.

I took a fine screwdriver and etched all 4 sides of every pin that each of those 4 connector blocks attach. Painstakingly!

I also etched each part of each connector block.

After that, I neutralized every area using white vinegar and a cloth, being careful not to overspill any other areas.

All is good for now and more importantly, if it does deteriorate in future, I know where the problem is as opposed to it being a mystery wiring loom worry.

Happy days. STTNG getting hammered in celebration tonight.

Sent from the comfort of my Sofa
 
Monkeyboypaul said:
maybe try a donor CPU board to see if all your issues go away. That board damage looks too suspect for my liking.
Click to expand...
+1

Although you appear to have fixed it I'd still be inclined to send the board off to one of the resident experts for a full inspection.

The only way you can be assured that the board is fully clear of battery damage is by someone who professionally deals with this sort of thing. Battery acid can hide away in places you can't see and slowly erode the board, by which time it'll be too late to fix.

Just my 2p. When it comes to this sort of stuff it's not worth leaving it to chance.
 
Durzel said:
+1

Although you appear to have fixed it I'd still be inclined to send the board off to one of the resident experts for a full inspection.
Click to expand...

Well luck has timed out on me. My first start up in months and I've purchased remote battery holders.
Installing them I notice theres still a little battery leakage.

It was working with the occasional oddity. I removed the CPU board and thoroughly cleaned with vinegar, rinsed with water and dried with compressed air.

When I replaced CPU, none of the coin door buttons work.

Anyone got any suggestions?

If I need to send cpu off, who is best?

Sent from the comfort of my sofa
 
Well I still haven't fixed this but it is high time I did.

Please can you guys suggest the best place to send the CPU for a good job and quick turnaround?
 
Marcel said:
Thanks Paul.
Click to expand...

my guess if non of the coin door buttons work is the 12v trace to the direct switch lm339s. Poor PCB design which is effected by acid damage often. Plus the lm339s themselves could be knackered to
 
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