Pinball info
Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Rollergames shop log
- Thread starter cooldan
- Start date
I think we pushed Dan enough to get him started and he now he enjoys it. Which can only ever be a good thing as it means you can fix your own stuff and get another level of satisfaction.
It was a shame to hear the Genny did last 30 minutes when you got it home, I thought we had fixed it. :suspicious:
It was a shame to hear the Genny did last 30 minutes when you got it home, I thought we had fixed it. :suspicious:
OP
OP
Right, i'm on the last few laps now - not yet the vinegar strokes, but not too far off. nearly all bits have been put back on the game now, but there's still no power to test anything out while Genny waits for a gasket to be delivered from Belgium (a likely story, they're probably all just admiring her).
[video=youtube;YgWu37xXFkg]
so far
taking bits off 5-6 hours
cleaning bags of bits 5-6 hours
putting bits back on 5-6 hours
(anticipated) tweaking - another 5-6 hours
i replaced all the rubbers and most of the bulbs.
i replaced a few star posts and metal posts, screws and washers along the way, but still had a number of bits left over when i was finished, and not just the usual pile of rusty and tarnished washers. this time i had more substantial leftovers, among them a star post, a spring, a metal post, loads of new rubbers (i'd ordered what the manual said, but it was miles out) and even a metal ball guide that i still cannot for the life of me work out where it goes. the spring was also a mystery until i realised that one of the coils wasn't gonna be able to get back home without it, which would leave a metal progger sticking up in the shooter lane.
that bit that looks like Nightmare Freddy's finger is apparently called a 'ball shooter lane feeder'. on the subject of this, can anyone explain why this game also has the thing just below the outhole that kicks balls down into the trough (the 'outhole kicker assembly'), what's the point of that? was this just an early trough design before they realised the balls could just fall straight in there? i'm talking about the thing in the bottom centre of this picture:
i replaced some stickers with some new ones off t'interwebs, the only new stuff i could find (still looking for plastics, anyone got any?) .....
i also replaced all those little orange rubber grommets that sit behind solenoids, and that slowly but surely with time turn brittle then turn to rubber gunky dust. what else? oh yeah, i fannied around with the magnet, trying to get it positioned perfectly just flush with the playfield, and checking all the connections between the coil and the board (in a *very* limited way) - i suspect i'll be coming back to this when i have electricity.
i tried to discover a cause for the non-functional left outlane kickback, and so far have this mysterious blackened area (see above ^^) just underneath it all to investigate. i'll be cleaning those wires properly in case all that black sh_ite can be an electrical pathway and cause a short - but i wonder what caused it all in the first place? hmmmm. connections etc to be checked when power is back on.
i was also gonna wax lyrical here about the interchangeability or otherwise of various metalwork, ie screws with various heads and various thicknesses (6/32, 8/32, 10/32), and about my favouritism for lock-nut washers and lock-nut screws, but i can only post 8 pics per post, so that will hafta be shelved until another day.
so that's it for a progress report. here's a nice ball's eye shot of the game looking a bit cleaner and shinier:
and (for my own benefit) a not-so-little list of tasks still to be done:
- replace back pf large plastic then top glass channel (removed to improve access before i used Nick's trick with the pivots) done
- solder back on the wires i knocked off, plus check any other loose ones done
- while i'm at it, check if anything on the magnet route needs resoldered, and check those dodgy light sockets at the same time done
- QTip with IPA all the gunk out of the pf holes and slots - all that foaming cleaner, novus and wax that has now collected like bogeys done
- QTip with Windolene all the clear windows from underneath, some of them are blackened with soot done
- while i'm at it, QTip clean all the optos i can find, all over the place none
- nearly forgot the most important bit! rebuild all three flippers with new end stops, sleeves, plunger/link/pawls
- in the backbox, damp dust everywhere, and tackle the knocker (clean, replace sleeve and grommet). batteries already changed and labelled, but also consider remote battery holder, considering that the only one i ever fitted did not work. done
- while in backbox, check all fuses. done
- get a can of that high pressure air spray to try to clean further crap from under the pf
- vacuum the cabinet and backbox
- systematically inspect all connectors - properly seated? any evidence of heat damage? any buildup of crap? done
- using printout from manual of all coils and flashers, test em all done
- using printout from manual of all switches, test em all
- set a custom message, reset all the high scores and set all game options to how i like em (ie. initially nice and easy, 5 balls a game, while i learn to play it)
- print new apron instruction cards
- final playfield clean with novus then polish with wax
then start playing it, and shortly...... start on the next one
layball:
[video=youtube;YgWu37xXFkg]
so far
taking bits off 5-6 hours
cleaning bags of bits 5-6 hours
putting bits back on 5-6 hours
(anticipated) tweaking - another 5-6 hours
i replaced all the rubbers and most of the bulbs.
i replaced a few star posts and metal posts, screws and washers along the way, but still had a number of bits left over when i was finished, and not just the usual pile of rusty and tarnished washers. this time i had more substantial leftovers, among them a star post, a spring, a metal post, loads of new rubbers (i'd ordered what the manual said, but it was miles out) and even a metal ball guide that i still cannot for the life of me work out where it goes. the spring was also a mystery until i realised that one of the coils wasn't gonna be able to get back home without it, which would leave a metal progger sticking up in the shooter lane.
that bit that looks like Nightmare Freddy's finger is apparently called a 'ball shooter lane feeder'. on the subject of this, can anyone explain why this game also has the thing just below the outhole that kicks balls down into the trough (the 'outhole kicker assembly'), what's the point of that? was this just an early trough design before they realised the balls could just fall straight in there? i'm talking about the thing in the bottom centre of this picture:
i replaced some stickers with some new ones off t'interwebs, the only new stuff i could find (still looking for plastics, anyone got any?) .....
i also replaced all those little orange rubber grommets that sit behind solenoids, and that slowly but surely with time turn brittle then turn to rubber gunky dust. what else? oh yeah, i fannied around with the magnet, trying to get it positioned perfectly just flush with the playfield, and checking all the connections between the coil and the board (in a *very* limited way) - i suspect i'll be coming back to this when i have electricity.
i tried to discover a cause for the non-functional left outlane kickback, and so far have this mysterious blackened area (see above ^^) just underneath it all to investigate. i'll be cleaning those wires properly in case all that black sh_ite can be an electrical pathway and cause a short - but i wonder what caused it all in the first place? hmmmm. connections etc to be checked when power is back on.
i was also gonna wax lyrical here about the interchangeability or otherwise of various metalwork, ie screws with various heads and various thicknesses (6/32, 8/32, 10/32), and about my favouritism for lock-nut washers and lock-nut screws, but i can only post 8 pics per post, so that will hafta be shelved until another day.
so that's it for a progress report. here's a nice ball's eye shot of the game looking a bit cleaner and shinier:
and (for my own benefit) a not-so-little list of tasks still to be done:
- replace back pf large plastic then top glass channel (removed to improve access before i used Nick's trick with the pivots) done
- solder back on the wires i knocked off, plus check any other loose ones done
- while i'm at it, check if anything on the magnet route needs resoldered, and check those dodgy light sockets at the same time done
- QTip with IPA all the gunk out of the pf holes and slots - all that foaming cleaner, novus and wax that has now collected like bogeys done
- QTip with Windolene all the clear windows from underneath, some of them are blackened with soot done
- while i'm at it, QTip clean all the optos i can find, all over the place none
- nearly forgot the most important bit! rebuild all three flippers with new end stops, sleeves, plunger/link/pawls
- in the backbox, damp dust everywhere, and tackle the knocker (clean, replace sleeve and grommet). batteries already changed and labelled, but also consider remote battery holder, considering that the only one i ever fitted did not work. done
- while in backbox, check all fuses. done
- get a can of that high pressure air spray to try to clean further crap from under the pf
- vacuum the cabinet and backbox
- systematically inspect all connectors - properly seated? any evidence of heat damage? any buildup of crap? done
- using printout from manual of all coils and flashers, test em all done
- using printout from manual of all switches, test em all
- set a custom message, reset all the high scores and set all game options to how i like em (ie. initially nice and easy, 5 balls a game, while i learn to play it)
- print new apron instruction cards
- final playfield clean with novus then polish with wax
then start playing it, and shortly...... start on the next one
layball:
Really good to see you getting stuck in and dirtying your hands and dare I say even enjoying it.
Great work so far.
Great work so far.
The outhole kicker, pushes the ball up the ramp so they are nicely lined up in the trough, otherwise they would be in the centre, not in a line and not near the shooter lane. But I might be talking about something different from you.
Good work, you should be proud of how you get stuck in now.
Good work, you should be proud of how you get stuck in now.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
"i tried to discover a cause for the non-functional left outlane kickback, and so far have this mysterious blackened area (see above ^^) just underneath it all to investigate. i'll be cleaning those wires properly in case all that black sh_ite can be an electrical pathway and cause a short - but i wonder what caused it all in the first place? hmmmm. connections etc to be checked when power is back on."
Electricity passing thru wire results in a magnetic field being produced (thats how solenoids work), thats why the 'black dust' ...a lot of which is fine metal worn off the mechs over time .... tends to be attracted to and accumulate around heavy wire traffic zones. Nothing to worry about. Thats my theory anyway and I'm sticking to it :biggrin1:
Electricity passing thru wire results in a magnetic field being produced (thats how solenoids work), thats why the 'black dust' ...a lot of which is fine metal worn off the mechs over time .... tends to be attracted to and accumulate around heavy wire traffic zones. Nothing to worry about. Thats my theory anyway and I'm sticking to it :biggrin1:
OP
OP
Right. the machine is now all put together, but now i'm dealing with problems that i probably caused myself during the stripdown/reassemble.
i got all the bulbs working by replacing some bulbs and some bulb holders and attacking tarnished/green metal with wire wool. i Qtipped all the gunk out of playfield slots and holes, and Qtipped soot off the insert windows from underneath. i cleaned inside the backbox, and undid, inspected and reconnected every connector. all looked sound, but i'm hoping that the act of removal and replacement will have in some way improved the connection - but here i may have caused trouble.
i noticed that the knocker coil looked a bit toasty, but (stupidly, probably) i connected it back up and powered on. no obvious smoke, but i think this may have blown a fuse somewhere, as when i went through the coils/flashers checking each one, i found that many weren't working. last night i did some more reading, and found that according to the manual page 40 (fuses) it seemed that nearly all my problems could be explained by a popped fuse F4 on the auxiliary power driver board.
for the technically gifted, here is a link to the manual - http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2006/Williams_1990_Rollergames_Manual.pdf
so i checked all the fuses, and found that on the power supply board the very fine ones were dead (F1 - 3/8A, and F2 and F3 - both 1/8A), but all others ok. i don't currently have any of those angel hair fuses so i can't fix those for now. on the auxiliary power driver board, the one i was suspicious of, F4, had been replaced with a 10A fuse, instead of the original 2.5A. i didn't have a 2.5A either, so i put a 3.15A in there. the only other dead one i found was F7 (4A) so i replaced this - yet again i bodged it, as i didn't have a 4 and instead put a 5A in there. i know, i know
then i did the coil test again (manual page 2 has a list) and found the following problems:
*knocker not working (not surprising as now disconnected again)
*flasher 7 does nothing, wherever that is
*flasher 8 and flasher 9 also do nothing, i don't know if they're trying to power a popped bulb, or if no juice is getting through to somewhere
*insert board GI relay does nothing. where is this anyway, is it the thing in the backbox between translite and boards? if so, all lights are on and stay on throughout. no flashing or pulsing like with the playfield GI test.
*the following coils do nothing: upper kickback, lock kickback, outlane kickback, ramp diverter (all apparently controlled by that F4 fuse)
*the magnet however does work, and this is supposed to be controlled by the same fuse. so does the popper, which didn't work before i replaced F7.
*both slingshots work, but they don't just fire once, they go da-da-da like there's some problem with the leaf switches or something.
*all pop bumpers work, but one of them seems to keep locking on, or 'machine-gunning' if that is the phrase. it certainly seems to fit that phrase anyway.
so tell me, what do i try next? i had convinced myself through my reading (before realising that it had been disconnected, and stupidly reconnecting it) that the knocker failure was due to either a fried coil, or failing that to a failed driver transistor TIP122 at Q30, or to a failed predriver transistor 2N4401 at Q26, and was getting all ready to buy some of these and try to replace the ones on the CPU board. i would probably have made an extreme fark-up. now i'm wondering what could be the common source of these errors?
it's possible that while stripping the board, i rested the pf underside somehow that it shouldn't be rested, and broke something that way. like in this pic:
/sigh
i got all the bulbs working by replacing some bulbs and some bulb holders and attacking tarnished/green metal with wire wool. i Qtipped all the gunk out of playfield slots and holes, and Qtipped soot off the insert windows from underneath. i cleaned inside the backbox, and undid, inspected and reconnected every connector. all looked sound, but i'm hoping that the act of removal and replacement will have in some way improved the connection - but here i may have caused trouble.
i noticed that the knocker coil looked a bit toasty, but (stupidly, probably) i connected it back up and powered on. no obvious smoke, but i think this may have blown a fuse somewhere, as when i went through the coils/flashers checking each one, i found that many weren't working. last night i did some more reading, and found that according to the manual page 40 (fuses) it seemed that nearly all my problems could be explained by a popped fuse F4 on the auxiliary power driver board.
for the technically gifted, here is a link to the manual - http://mirror2.ipdb.org/files/2006/Williams_1990_Rollergames_Manual.pdf
so i checked all the fuses, and found that on the power supply board the very fine ones were dead (F1 - 3/8A, and F2 and F3 - both 1/8A), but all others ok. i don't currently have any of those angel hair fuses so i can't fix those for now. on the auxiliary power driver board, the one i was suspicious of, F4, had been replaced with a 10A fuse, instead of the original 2.5A. i didn't have a 2.5A either, so i put a 3.15A in there. the only other dead one i found was F7 (4A) so i replaced this - yet again i bodged it, as i didn't have a 4 and instead put a 5A in there. i know, i know
then i did the coil test again (manual page 2 has a list) and found the following problems:
*knocker not working (not surprising as now disconnected again)
*flasher 7 does nothing, wherever that is
*flasher 8 and flasher 9 also do nothing, i don't know if they're trying to power a popped bulb, or if no juice is getting through to somewhere
*insert board GI relay does nothing. where is this anyway, is it the thing in the backbox between translite and boards? if so, all lights are on and stay on throughout. no flashing or pulsing like with the playfield GI test.
*the following coils do nothing: upper kickback, lock kickback, outlane kickback, ramp diverter (all apparently controlled by that F4 fuse)
*the magnet however does work, and this is supposed to be controlled by the same fuse. so does the popper, which didn't work before i replaced F7.
*both slingshots work, but they don't just fire once, they go da-da-da like there's some problem with the leaf switches or something.
*all pop bumpers work, but one of them seems to keep locking on, or 'machine-gunning' if that is the phrase. it certainly seems to fit that phrase anyway.
so tell me, what do i try next? i had convinced myself through my reading (before realising that it had been disconnected, and stupidly reconnecting it) that the knocker failure was due to either a fried coil, or failing that to a failed driver transistor TIP122 at Q30, or to a failed predriver transistor 2N4401 at Q26, and was getting all ready to buy some of these and try to replace the ones on the CPU board. i would probably have made an extreme fark-up. now i'm wondering what could be the common source of these errors?
it's possible that while stripping the board, i rested the pf underside somehow that it shouldn't be rested, and broke something that way. like in this pic:
/sigh
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
So ...to clarify ...the game was basically working before you stripped it down ...yes ? I think it was when I played it at Nicks.
Double check anything you may have 'upset' ..... are all the connectors back on in the correct places ? Did you do any soldering of wires etc ?
Double check anything you may have 'upset' ..... are all the connectors back on in the correct places ? Did you do any soldering of wires etc ?
OP
OP
I never did a full coil check so I can't be sure. The upper kickback only fires after the lower one so i don't think i ever saw either one working, and I don't know about the lock kick back (ejects locked balls either for multiball or for a quick fun spin) or the ramp diverter either.
I only played it half a dozen times and don't think I even got a Multiball so I think actually all those coils may have died on the journey from Nick's to mine.
The only soldering I did was a couple of wires I'd knocked off the magnet coil and a trough switch. Both are now ok.
I only played it half a dozen times and don't think I even got a Multiball so I think actually all those coils may have died on the journey from Nick's to mine.
The only soldering I did was a couple of wires I'd knocked off the magnet coil and a trough switch. Both are now ok.
The only thing I remember not working when we played it at Nicks was the magnet. The various kickers were working and so was the one that sends the balls round that little loop from the lock.
The slings and pop bumpers sound like switches need adjusting so should be simple to sort out. I'd try another round of reseating connectors as a first thing see if that changes anything.
The slings and pop bumpers sound like switches need adjusting so should be simple to sort out. I'd try another round of reseating connectors as a first thing see if that changes anything.
As Chris has already said, everything worked even the magnet (sometimes) when I played it.
Re check all the connectors to double check you have connected them back right. Its pretty easy to make a simple mistake. Hopefully you will find out whats wrong, Good luck.
Re check all the connectors to double check you have connected them back right. Its pretty easy to make a simple mistake. Hopefully you will find out whats wrong, Good luck.
OP
OP
:frusty: yep, first order of business tomorrow is to access and readjust the switches in both slings and all three poppers, cheers Chris for the reassurance.
:frusty::frusty: i'll also check out all the connectors, make sure nothing is one-pin-out or upside down or looks cooked or otherwise hokey.
:frusty::frusty::frusty: my fancy schmanzy multimeter arrived today as well, so i can check if there is power at all those coils - on DCV, with the machine turned on, i think either i measure across both coil lugs, or i put black lead on earth, red on the coil. i need to go and read those pinwiki links again.
:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty: if i'm feeling really brave, also on the list to be checked is a load of TIP122 driver transistors that drive the coils: my notes here tell me that i test these with the power ON: NPN TO-220 package (TIP-31C, TIP-32C, TIP-41C, TIP-102, TIP-122, MJE15030, 2N6043)
:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty: and if for some reason i still have any energy left, i will think about checking predriver 2N4401 transistors like this: again, my notes here tell me that i test these with the power ON: NPN TO-92 package (2N3904, 2N4401, 2N5550, 2N5551, 2N6427, MPS-A13, MPS-A42, PN2222A)
(btw, i'm not showing off or assuming any knowledge by plonking that info here, it's just so i can refer to it tomorrow from the garage, as i won't have my laptop with me, and don't fancy trying to find it again on the phone with a crappy internet signal - once it's loaded on the screen, i'll have it to hand as a guide. and if anyone spots an error or something obvious i missed, i hope they tell me)
right, i'm off to order a mixed selection of fuses from that website Ive mentioned. spose i'd better also post a picture at the same time
:frusty::frusty: i'll also check out all the connectors, make sure nothing is one-pin-out or upside down or looks cooked or otherwise hokey.
:frusty::frusty::frusty: my fancy schmanzy multimeter arrived today as well, so i can check if there is power at all those coils - on DCV, with the machine turned on, i think either i measure across both coil lugs, or i put black lead on earth, red on the coil. i need to go and read those pinwiki links again.
:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty: if i'm feeling really brave, also on the list to be checked is a load of TIP122 driver transistors that drive the coils: my notes here tell me that i test these with the power ON: NPN TO-220 package (TIP-31C, TIP-32C, TIP-41C, TIP-102, TIP-122, MJE15030, 2N6043)
- Place the black lead of your DMM on the metal tab of the transistor
- Probe each of the flanking legs with the red lead
- .4 to .6 volts is a normal reading. Readings outside of this range indicate a failed transistor
- Probe the center leg with the red lead
- A "short" should be seen. If not, then the transistor has failed.
:frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty::frusty: and if for some reason i still have any energy left, i will think about checking predriver 2N4401 transistors like this: again, my notes here tell me that i test these with the power ON: NPN TO-92 package (2N3904, 2N4401, 2N5550, 2N5551, 2N6427, MPS-A13, MPS-A42, PN2222A)
- Place the red lead of your DMM on the center leg of the transistor
- Probe each of the flanking legs with the black lead
- .4 to .6 volts is a normal reading
- Readings outside of this range indicate a failed transistor
(btw, i'm not showing off or assuming any knowledge by plonking that info here, it's just so i can refer to it tomorrow from the garage, as i won't have my laptop with me, and don't fancy trying to find it again on the phone with a crappy internet signal - once it's loaded on the screen, i'll have it to hand as a guide. and if anyone spots an error or something obvious i missed, i hope they tell me)
right, i'm off to order a mixed selection of fuses from that website Ive mentioned. spose i'd better also post a picture at the same time
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
Dan ......Test transistors with POWER OFF
Indeed, the power on bit with transistors is only necessary when you short them to earth to see if they fire.... Also, if you haven't already put the playfield back in the cab rather than having it sit on something that could short it out...
Oh and most important stop putting higher rated fuses in the game - same value or lower only unless you know what you're doing. eg replace a 4A with a 4A or a 3.15A NOT a 5A - otherwise you're removing the protection that the fuses are suppose to be providing!
OP
OP
i'm nearly there, so close i can smell it's blood. can it bleed? cos if it can bleed, then i can kill it.
so i replaced all popped fuses - many thanks indeed to Sergeant GrizZ who airlifted me some emergency medical fuse supplies this morning - and i checked all connectors again. i even found an extra fuse in the middle of the playfield underside that i hadn't seen mentioned in the manual, and it was popped! so i replaced it.
can you see it? what about close up?
i took out and inspected all four slingshot switches, and they needed a bit of attention. they weren't just bent, they had corrosion (?or congealed cleaning solutions) all over, including at the base where they could have made an unwanted bridge:
so i cleaned them up, and will most likely also replace them.
as part of my connector checks, i undid, inspected, and replaced every connector in the backbox and cabinet. i also tugged on all wires, at which point this one came loose - the one on the bottom, 2nd from the right. so i tucked it back in and tightened all screws, noting that it was an after-market fix by someone, that involved some soldering on the interconnect board:
i was feeling good now, i'd identified and solved some problems. even the hairy-faced lady seemed to have had a shave and to approve.
so i fired Rollergames up, and woop! woop! everything was hunky dory. every coil worked, as did every switch and every bulb. Kickers, diverters, poppers, magnet, everything seemed to be operational, and i felt bulletproof as i finally replaced the apron and the playfield glass. i thought that was it, and i'd fixed the lot. it felt fantastic, like i'd just got my high score
[video=youtube;EjMOHFTP2Iw]
but pride comes before a fall, my friends. halfway through my second game, the problems started again. there wasn't any telling event to announce it, but when the ball landed in the pit, the popper wouldn't fire. in diagnostics, i found that the following coils now no longer reacted: ball popper, drop target reset coil, outlane kicker, left upper kicker, lock kicker, lock ramp diverter, and magnet. i was pretty knackered and cold at this stage (it was bloody snowing into the tiki hut!) but i used my remaining energy to check the coils for power, and found that whilst most coils had 55V going through them, these dodgy coils all seemed to have 0.4V instead.
so come on fellas, let's hear your suggestions and advice. i've got this thing on the ropes, i just need a final killer blow, and she'll be mine to do my bidding with (ours, to do our bidding with - if you're going to the London Pinball Championships or to Daventry, she'll be there).
so i replaced all popped fuses - many thanks indeed to Sergeant GrizZ who airlifted me some emergency medical fuse supplies this morning - and i checked all connectors again. i even found an extra fuse in the middle of the playfield underside that i hadn't seen mentioned in the manual, and it was popped! so i replaced it.
can you see it? what about close up?
i took out and inspected all four slingshot switches, and they needed a bit of attention. they weren't just bent, they had corrosion (?or congealed cleaning solutions) all over, including at the base where they could have made an unwanted bridge:
so i cleaned them up, and will most likely also replace them.
as part of my connector checks, i undid, inspected, and replaced every connector in the backbox and cabinet. i also tugged on all wires, at which point this one came loose - the one on the bottom, 2nd from the right. so i tucked it back in and tightened all screws, noting that it was an after-market fix by someone, that involved some soldering on the interconnect board:
i was feeling good now, i'd identified and solved some problems. even the hairy-faced lady seemed to have had a shave and to approve.
so i fired Rollergames up, and woop! woop! everything was hunky dory. every coil worked, as did every switch and every bulb. Kickers, diverters, poppers, magnet, everything seemed to be operational, and i felt bulletproof as i finally replaced the apron and the playfield glass. i thought that was it, and i'd fixed the lot. it felt fantastic, like i'd just got my high score
[video=youtube;EjMOHFTP2Iw]
but pride comes before a fall, my friends. halfway through my second game, the problems started again. there wasn't any telling event to announce it, but when the ball landed in the pit, the popper wouldn't fire. in diagnostics, i found that the following coils now no longer reacted: ball popper, drop target reset coil, outlane kicker, left upper kicker, lock kicker, lock ramp diverter, and magnet. i was pretty knackered and cold at this stage (it was bloody snowing into the tiki hut!) but i used my remaining energy to check the coils for power, and found that whilst most coils had 55V going through them, these dodgy coils all seemed to have 0.4V instead.
so come on fellas, let's hear your suggestions and advice. i've got this thing on the ropes, i just need a final killer blow, and she'll be mine to do my bidding with (ours, to do our bidding with - if you're going to the London Pinball Championships or to Daventry, she'll be there).
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
Good on you for battling on ! And thru the snow ! Many would have given up.
That hack/repair on the interconnect board is the GI wiring. Always burn up on those boards.
The coils .....assume fuse(s) blew ??
It seems a weird selection of coils out. No pattern ...ie not ALL the 'A'side ones, or ALL the specials. Hmmmm
That hack/repair on the interconnect board is the GI wiring. Always burn up on those boards.
The coils .....assume fuse(s) blew ??
It seems a weird selection of coils out. No pattern ...ie not ALL the 'A'side ones, or ALL the specials. Hmmmm
It does seems like a fuse Dan, perhaps that one under the playfield? I normally check stuff like that on my new games as a matter of course, but as it all worked and said Pinball Heaven on the instruction card, I didn't even think about it. The higher rated fuses especially the 10a are almost certainly masking a problem, fixing that will I imagine relieve you of your troubles.
All was (or seemed to be) working here as most have confirmed, sounds like either something shorted, a transistor died a natural death or the machine was scared when it realised it was in the south (closer to Ivan and Will) and so hoped it could trick you into thinking it was a lost cause and thus left alone by you meddling southerners
All was (or seemed to be) working here as most have confirmed, sounds like either something shorted, a transistor died a natural death or the machine was scared when it realised it was in the south (closer to Ivan and Will) and so hoped it could trick you into thinking it was a lost cause and thus left alone by you meddling southerners
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
Just a thought ...was the magnet disconnected when you got it ?
OP
OP
i dunno, didn't check but don't think so.
it wasn't working when i had those few first games before stripping it, that much i remember: i never saw it hold the ball.
still very light snow in the air here, but when the little fella goes for his afternoon nap, i'll pop down there and check those fuses again, look for any possible source of shorts, and check the coils' resistance.
one other thing that came to mind is that when i was bashing those posts up from underneath with a hammer, i think i may have accidentally bashed a wire once or even twice, so i'll also inspect for any evidence of bashed insulation or wire damage at the same time, and if i find any, replace damaged bits and heat shrink wrap the ends.
it wasn't working when i had those few first games before stripping it, that much i remember: i never saw it hold the ball.
still very light snow in the air here, but when the little fella goes for his afternoon nap, i'll pop down there and check those fuses again, look for any possible source of shorts, and check the coils' resistance.
one other thing that came to mind is that when i was bashing those posts up from underneath with a hammer, i think i may have accidentally bashed a wire once or even twice, so i'll also inspect for any evidence of bashed insulation or wire damage at the same time, and if i find any, replace damaged bits and heat shrink wrap the ends.
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
Bashed wires causing a short could certainly explain some sh*t going down.
OP
OP
ok, freezing down there so i only paid a short visit:
1) found that wire i'd known i bashed with a hammer. this was definitely the only one i hit, and i'm pretty confident that this wasn't the source of a short to anywhere, but i wrapped it in bodger's tape anyway to be sure.
2) checked the resistance of every coil i could find under the playfield, and confirmed that they were all over 3.5 ohms: magnet, ball popper, jet bumpers, slingshots, 3 flippers (checked these 3 ways as they have 3 lugs) and shooter lane feeder. hmm, i'm remembering now that i forgot to also check the ones topside, like the three kickback coils (outlane, upper, and lock) and the ramp diverter - i got distracted by something and will need to do that first thing next time.
3) checked those pesky fuses again: the one under the pf that had popped before was still okay. the one on the auxiliary power driver board at F7 that had popped before was also still okay. but the one on the auxiliary power driver board at F4 (the one that had been fitted by someone with a 10A fuse instead of the 2.5A it's supposed to be), had died, so i put a new one in again. i don't have a 2.5A or a 2A so i used the closest i had, a 3.15A again, same as yesterday. now in test mode, all coils fired, the magnet worked, even (first time for this) the insert GI flashed.
and exactly the same as yesterday, i had a single fun game, but then on the second game, the first time the ball went into the pit, i discovered the ball popper coil wasn't firing, and diagnostics told me that once again the usual suspects weren't active in coil test menu: no upper kickback, no outlane kickback, no lock kickback, no ramp diverter, no ball popper, and no magnet. i checked the fuses again, and once again it was the same one that had died, F4 on the aux power supply board.
so the person who'd put a 10A fuse in there may well have known that a correctly rated fuse just keeps on blowing. now i could just try putting a 10A in there myself, and see if everything now works, but that wouldn't feel like i'd fixed it.
so chaps, apart from checking the resistance on the 4 remaining coils (three kickback coils plus the ramp diverter coil), what do i do next?
if all four coils prove on testing to have 3.5 ohms or more, then is there any point in trying to find a problem with diodes? or driver transistors?
is there anything else connected to the F4 fuse that i could try?
1) found that wire i'd known i bashed with a hammer. this was definitely the only one i hit, and i'm pretty confident that this wasn't the source of a short to anywhere, but i wrapped it in bodger's tape anyway to be sure.
2) checked the resistance of every coil i could find under the playfield, and confirmed that they were all over 3.5 ohms: magnet, ball popper, jet bumpers, slingshots, 3 flippers (checked these 3 ways as they have 3 lugs) and shooter lane feeder. hmm, i'm remembering now that i forgot to also check the ones topside, like the three kickback coils (outlane, upper, and lock) and the ramp diverter - i got distracted by something and will need to do that first thing next time.
3) checked those pesky fuses again: the one under the pf that had popped before was still okay. the one on the auxiliary power driver board at F7 that had popped before was also still okay. but the one on the auxiliary power driver board at F4 (the one that had been fitted by someone with a 10A fuse instead of the 2.5A it's supposed to be), had died, so i put a new one in again. i don't have a 2.5A or a 2A so i used the closest i had, a 3.15A again, same as yesterday. now in test mode, all coils fired, the magnet worked, even (first time for this) the insert GI flashed.
and exactly the same as yesterday, i had a single fun game, but then on the second game, the first time the ball went into the pit, i discovered the ball popper coil wasn't firing, and diagnostics told me that once again the usual suspects weren't active in coil test menu: no upper kickback, no outlane kickback, no lock kickback, no ramp diverter, no ball popper, and no magnet. i checked the fuses again, and once again it was the same one that had died, F4 on the aux power supply board.
so the person who'd put a 10A fuse in there may well have known that a correctly rated fuse just keeps on blowing. now i could just try putting a 10A in there myself, and see if everything now works, but that wouldn't feel like i'd fixed it.
so chaps, apart from checking the resistance on the 4 remaining coils (three kickback coils plus the ramp diverter coil), what do i do next?
if all four coils prove on testing to have 3.5 ohms or more, then is there any point in trying to find a problem with diodes? or driver transistors?
is there anything else connected to the F4 fuse that i could try?
Sounds like you may have a problem with the pit coil if the fuse is always blowing at the same place every time. In this instance it may be worth putting a 10A fuse back in and seeing if you can have more than a couple of games without problem.... then decide on a suitable way forward.
No it wasn't, it's just hit and miss at holding the ball, I thought that was down to "mushrooming" of the magnet pole so I ground it down, but it was still the same
OP
OP
i'm not sure this is necessarily true, i think the pit coil is just the one that's the most often triggered. the way i see it, there are 8 coils that have caused me trouble, and they're not all controlled by the same fuse. but i'm a novice here, so i'm still hoping to stumble across something that links all the issues together (like a dodgy connection or a failed chip) that i can diagnose and then treat.
it's still too bloody cold in the Tiki Hut to do too much, so i removed the board and brought it inside to test those transistors:
first i identified the driver and predriver transistors from the manual for my 8 suspect coils
-4A ball popper (switched)
-6A drop target reset (switched)
-7A knocker (switched) .... currently disconnected. this was the only coil that tested bad resistance-wise (1.2 ohms), all the others had 3.5 ohms or more
-13 upper kickback (controlled)
-14 lock kickback (controlled)
-18 ramp diverter (special)
-20 outlane kickback (special)
-22 magnet (special)
i think i understand the difference between switched, controlled and special, but let me know if not:
switched means it fires when a switch is triggered, after a built in time lag. i'm not sure what the switch is for the drop targets to be reset though...... anyone?
controlled means the CPU tells it when to fire ..... but why is this any different to switched? the outlane kickback needs to register that the outlane switch was triggered but also that the kickback is enabled, ok, but the upper kickback is only ever needed after the outlane kickback has fired, so this one could just as easily have been switched, no? lock kickback i understand, it both fires the locked balls up and around for a fun diversion, and (in tandem with the lock diverter) kicks all locked balls out for multiball play.
special coils .... i read about these but it didn't sink in to my feeble brain. help me out? the bumpers are all special too, but they work just fine most of the time (with occasional machine gunning).
so anyway, i digress. what i wanted to ask was this - first i tested all the driver transistors, which all look like this and are TIP122 type. all eight of them seem to work just fine, giving me numbers between 0.45 and 0.58V for the two side legs, and shorting in the middle. should the two legs be the same as each other? i'm guessing not. while i was at it, i tested all the transistors that were the same shape - one row that turned out to be TIP42 so i had to reverse the leads, and on these, the two legs gave 0.48 and 0.69V respectively. presumably all still ok.
next i tested the predriver transistors, this time they look like this:
and this time, the two legs gave readings of 0.22 and 0.57V across the board. again, i'm presuming these are all still good, even though 0.22 is quite far outside the 0.4V that my reading told me to expect from a good transistor.
------------------------------------------------------------------
and that's where i've got to so far. tomorrow i'll check the resistance and power at those last few coils on the playfield topside, but am not expecting to find a problem, as all of them have been seen in action (once fuse F4 is replaced).
i wonder if something happens *after* i finish my game that pops the fuse? is starting a game what resets the drop targets? what else makes that coil fire?
if it pops again with a fresh fuse (this time i have all the correct fuses, as my ebay fuse order arrived - F4 is supposed to be a 2.5A so that's what i'll put in the start with) then i'll try seeing if it works just fine with a 5A, then an 8A (if i have one), and finally a 10A. i have a 3A and a 5A circuit breaker on the way that may arrive tomorrow, so i could also save myself from going through all my fuses by trying that out.
finally, there is a thing in the manual about the LED codes, on the CPU board. my middle light seems to blink all the time, but i can't count how many times to use this table. any help with that?
ithangyou
edited extra: one more thing, i used the (fabulous) multimeter to test all the diodes on the board, bearing in mind that without snipping a leg, the reading may be shonky. according to the manual, diodes 3-19 are all of the same type (1N4001, the same type, i think, as used across coils) - and 4-19 all tested at +/- 512mV, whereas no 3 tested at 15mV. now diode 3 sits bang next door to a bloody bastard great big relay, so i'm prepared to accept that this may not be true ..... but could it possibly be worth exploring further? can anyone with knowledge take a look in the manual (linked above) and let me know if a buggered D3 could cause the faults i'm suffering?
Wow.
For someone who was even to scared to take a plastic off to clean underneath it a few month ago, and look at you now. Well done.
You certainly have come on in the space of a few month and I like the way you are going about your recent fault finding skills. Not taking the easy way out and going for the right way of doing it. (Polibug would be proud).
One thing I don't like is your choice of batteries, where did you get those from ? A Christmas cracker ?
For someone who was even to scared to take a plastic off to clean underneath it a few month ago, and look at you now. Well done.
You certainly have come on in the space of a few month and I like the way you are going about your recent fault finding skills. Not taking the easy way out and going for the right way of doing it. (Polibug would be proud).
One thing I don't like is your choice of batteries, where did you get those from ? A Christmas cracker ?
OMG - they look like early learning centre batteries.... Been robbin em out of the little un's toys Dan??
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
I've had too many beers to take all this in. I'll report back in the morning
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
Dan .....Norbert Snicer's (name !! ) guide ....Pinball Machines How They Work And Troubleshooting ....has some really useful, clear explanations of WPC and Sys 11 systems. Highly recommend it.
http://www.flipjuke.fr/getcenter/fl...tion_williams_PinballMachines-HowTheyWork.pdf
) guide ....Pinball Machines How They Work And Troubleshooting ....has some really useful, clear explanations of WPC and Sys 11 systems. Highly recommend it.http://www.flipjuke.fr/getcenter/fl...tion_williams_PinballMachines-HowTheyWork.pdf
OP
OP
cheers for that GrizZ, i saw it a couple of years ago and understood very little. now i'll have another read and this time understand a little more. in two years time, when i'm still asking newb questions, you need to send it again and i'll try once more 
so the Rollergames saga continues, though i'm getting closer, having now cleared the first Jade gate and obtained the second Silver key. all troublesome coils now confirmed to have power, to have sufficient resistance, and to have working driver and predriver transistors. i don't especially want to go to the next step in the chain, but i suppose i'll go there next if i have to ..... this is all a big learning experience, and i'm kinda enjoying it, much more than i thought i would.
:blah:
after the board went back in, everything was hunky dory for about an hour, plenty of games were played and i was feeling confident that whatever it was, it was now fixed, and that it musta been a bad connection or something. i'd installed a 3A circuit breaker in the fuse's home, but it never popped so eventually i put a 2.5A fuse in there instead. oh, and i replaced the batteries for some posh ones in case the game was a brand snob.
yay! (i thought). then one time the ball just sat in the pit looking sadly at me, so i sighed and checked diagnostics, and all the usual suspects were dead again - i should never have taken the circuit breaker out so prematurely. back to the drawing board.
while i was in the backbox (again) i removed the knocker coil to test if it was definitely toast - it was:
i also played around with adding a custom message - i hope this worked, as i'm kinda fed up of seeing 'ajustment failure' and 'factory settings', and having to go in and set up free play again. i *think* (and yes, i've read up about these messages -
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.p...22Adjust_Failure.22_and_.22Factory_Setting.22) - that i can prevent this by making sure that after any change, i forward all the way through to adjustment 70 and then press the credit button. hopefully this saves the change and means i won't have to input it all over again. but if there's a simpler method, please let me know. these are the two displays i'm getting sick of:
:blah::blah::blah:
where was i? oh yes, the next steps. well when i had the board out yesterday, i also checked all the diodes in situ, and found that one or two of them had values waaaay outside the expected 0.5V, so my next plan is to once again get the board out, and this time to snip the leg on the possibly dodgy diode(s) and retest. if all hunky dory, i'll try to solder the broken leg back together. if no good, i'll try to remove it and solder a new one in place. i'm kind of hoping that they test bad, as this could suggest a possible cure by their replacement, assuming i don't screw it up.
can i think of any other clues that may help someone clever? hmmmm.....
:noidea:well, there is one other thing. the insert GI that flashes on and off in coil test mode only works intermittently, and i found that if i pulled on the connector to the little board with a relay on it, i could make it work - so i popped another cherry and tried 'reflowing the solder' (oooooohh!) on the back of those male pins. it didn't seem to work though, it's still intermittent.
:noidea::noidea:i noticed that a few of the flashers still don't go off, i haven't got around to changing bulbs or checking connections yet but will get there eventually. in coil test mode, flash 7, 8 and 9 all do diddly squat.
:noidea::noidea::noidea:then there's that bleddy magnet, which still only catches the ball sometimes, though i can see it trying every time now (when fuse F4 is alive and well). i readjusted the position, and got the top of the magnet as high as it would possibly go without affecting a ball travelling over it, and wondered if there was any problem with the coil strength, or if i should buy a replacement magnet. thoughts? here's the magnet coil:
plus i read this on the pinwiki about special solenoids - "There is a 22uF non-polarized capacitor and a 100 ohm resistor mounted across the special solenoid switches. The use of the capacitor and resistor creates what is called an RC circuit. The RC circuit is used to filter noise from the switch signal. Should a special solenoid lock on, and the switch leaves are properly gapped, the issue may be a shorted switch capacitor or resistor.
Later system 11 games do not use the special solenoids in the same way. They were changed to a cpu polled switch instead, keeping all the solenoid pulses under cpu control. You can easily tell if your game has the cpu controlled type by inspecting the activation switches on the pops and slings; if there are a primary and secondary switch installed, it is a direct-fire special solenoid setup. (Note that a secondary switch in the case of slingshots does not mean the normal 2nd switch all slings shots employ; rather, it refers to a switch that only activates when the sling activates. It is installed near the pivot point of the sling arm underneath the playfield.)" i have no idea what all that means and if it applies to me or not. but it's something else to tinker with.
:rolleyez:after that i've only got limited options remaining. i could see if it lasts with a 4A fuse in place, then with a 5A (circuit breaker) then a 10A again, as was in there a week ago. or i could mess around with the 7407/7408 chips that are upstream of the predriver transistors. what else can i test with my fancy new multimeter, any point testing bridge rectifiers? what about the rest of those funny looking gizmos, nibnabs and oojamaflips on the boards?
that's all folks! i've used up my 8 pictures, so that's yer lot
:sorry:
so the Rollergames saga continues, though i'm getting closer, having now cleared the first Jade gate and obtained the second Silver key. all troublesome coils now confirmed to have power, to have sufficient resistance, and to have working driver and predriver transistors. i don't especially want to go to the next step in the chain, but i suppose i'll go there next if i have to ..... this is all a big learning experience, and i'm kinda enjoying it, much more than i thought i would.
:blah:
after the board went back in, everything was hunky dory for about an hour, plenty of games were played and i was feeling confident that whatever it was, it was now fixed, and that it musta been a bad connection or something. i'd installed a 3A circuit breaker in the fuse's home, but it never popped so eventually i put a 2.5A fuse in there instead. oh, and i replaced the batteries for some posh ones in case the game was a brand snob.
yay! (i thought). then one time the ball just sat in the pit looking sadly at me, so i sighed and checked diagnostics, and all the usual suspects were dead again - i should never have taken the circuit breaker out so prematurely. back to the drawing board.
while i was in the backbox (again) i removed the knocker coil to test if it was definitely toast - it was:
i also played around with adding a custom message - i hope this worked, as i'm kinda fed up of seeing 'ajustment failure' and 'factory settings', and having to go in and set up free play again. i *think* (and yes, i've read up about these messages -
http://www.pinwiki.com/wiki/index.p...22Adjust_Failure.22_and_.22Factory_Setting.22) - that i can prevent this by making sure that after any change, i forward all the way through to adjustment 70 and then press the credit button. hopefully this saves the change and means i won't have to input it all over again. but if there's a simpler method, please let me know. these are the two displays i'm getting sick of:
:blah::blah::blah:
where was i? oh yes, the next steps. well when i had the board out yesterday, i also checked all the diodes in situ, and found that one or two of them had values waaaay outside the expected 0.5V, so my next plan is to once again get the board out, and this time to snip the leg on the possibly dodgy diode(s) and retest. if all hunky dory, i'll try to solder the broken leg back together. if no good, i'll try to remove it and solder a new one in place. i'm kind of hoping that they test bad, as this could suggest a possible cure by their replacement, assuming i don't screw it up.
can i think of any other clues that may help someone clever? hmmmm.....
:noidea:well, there is one other thing. the insert GI that flashes on and off in coil test mode only works intermittently, and i found that if i pulled on the connector to the little board with a relay on it, i could make it work - so i popped another cherry and tried 'reflowing the solder' (oooooohh!) on the back of those male pins. it didn't seem to work though, it's still intermittent.
:noidea::noidea:i noticed that a few of the flashers still don't go off, i haven't got around to changing bulbs or checking connections yet but will get there eventually. in coil test mode, flash 7, 8 and 9 all do diddly squat.
:noidea::noidea::noidea:then there's that bleddy magnet, which still only catches the ball sometimes, though i can see it trying every time now (when fuse F4 is alive and well). i readjusted the position, and got the top of the magnet as high as it would possibly go without affecting a ball travelling over it, and wondered if there was any problem with the coil strength, or if i should buy a replacement magnet. thoughts? here's the magnet coil:
Later system 11 games do not use the special solenoids in the same way. They were changed to a cpu polled switch instead, keeping all the solenoid pulses under cpu control. You can easily tell if your game has the cpu controlled type by inspecting the activation switches on the pops and slings; if there are a primary and secondary switch installed, it is a direct-fire special solenoid setup. (Note that a secondary switch in the case of slingshots does not mean the normal 2nd switch all slings shots employ; rather, it refers to a switch that only activates when the sling activates. It is installed near the pivot point of the sling arm underneath the playfield.)" i have no idea what all that means and if it applies to me or not. but it's something else to tinker with.
:rolleyez:after that i've only got limited options remaining. i could see if it lasts with a 4A fuse in place, then with a 5A (circuit breaker) then a 10A again, as was in there a week ago. or i could mess around with the 7407/7408 chips that are upstream of the predriver transistors. what else can i test with my fancy new multimeter, any point testing bridge rectifiers? what about the rest of those funny looking gizmos, nibnabs and oojamaflips on the boards?
that's all folks! i've used up my 8 pictures, so that's yer lot
- Joined
- Jul 21, 2011
- Messages
- 11,336
- Alias
- Ive
